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Old 14-04-2011, 12:11 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
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Default Without interruption

I’m reading Tell To Win in an effort to further understand story’s power and successful use.

I’m skipping around a bit and was lucky enough to come across this passage on page 20:

Quote:
The building blocks of all compelling stories, whether they’re told in person, in the pages of a book, or via actors on a screen are challenge, struggle and resolution.
This reminded me of what Patrick Wall said about our sequential, motoric, instinctive response to painful signals; Withdrawal, protection and resolution.

Can you see how these characteristics are similar?

Perhaps with their instinctive movement our patients are trying to tell us a story – their story.

We shouldn’t interrupt them.
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Old 14-04-2011, 03:38 PM   #2
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From Oliver Sacks:

“A normal man is one who is able to tell his own story. He knows where he came from (he has a past, a functioning memory), he knows who he is (his identity), and he knows where he is going (he has plans). He is thus situated in the flow of a narrative: he is a story.

Should this individual story link be shattered, for whatever mental or physiological reason, that man would be ejected from time’s flow. He would cease to know anything, to know who he was or what he should do. He would clutch at the appearances of existence as at a straw. From a medical standpoint he would be adrift. His bodily mechanisms would still function, but he would be lost along the way. He would no longer exist. No longer to be able to tell one’s story, to situate oneself satisfactorily in time, the person is cut off from themselves by their memory’s failure to regenerate and keep on regenerating. Cut off from themselves they are driven mad.”
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Old 14-04-2011, 06:40 PM   #3
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Sacks has been a favorite of mine since I read Awakenings when it came out in '73.

To me, the retelling of this story in the 1990 movie was absolutely awful. It strayed miles from Sacks' experience and didn't compare to the lessons taught in the book.

In the bulk of his work done since, Sacks strikes me as one completely devoted to his patients and willing to spend more time with them than he'd ever be paid for. He also has the ability in his writing to make the patient the hero of every story seeking one.

That's hard to do.
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Old 14-04-2011, 06:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post

Perhaps with their instinctive movement our patients are trying to tell us a story – their story.

We shouldn’t interrupt them.
I agree Barrett. Even though you say you have never seen an emotion arise other than laughter or surprise during instinctive movement what would you do if emotions did occur?
Would you "stop" them? What if it were an integral part oftheir story which needed telling?
I have seen moans and groans during "unwinding demonstrations" from one traveling PT, didn't seem harmful and the subject felt better after.
Just interested in how you would handle the situation.
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Old 14-04-2011, 10:49 PM   #5
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Being the heartless bastard that I am, if anyone at anytime emotes at all in my presence I wrap them in a carpet and roll them to the curb.

[pause for laughter]

After all this time do you still think it is necessary to remind everyone that you see me as someone who doesn't permit anything other than a Mr. Spock persona from my patients?

I have NEVER said, "(I) have never seen an emotion arise other than laughter or surprise during instinctive movement" though I have said many times that the moaning, screaming, wailing and screeching the MFR crowd write about quite proudly on a regaular basis has not happened near me. I suspect the PT you watched subtly encouraged whatever you saw and that he or she had no idea they were doing so. No harm? How would you know?

A little verbiage, even a tear is simply a part of the human lexicon of expression and I neither fear it nor am I unaware that all that might be helpful. The performances described by the MFR people are just that, and I stand by my contention that they have no place in a PT clinic.

"The situation," as you refer to it has quite a range, don't you think? (It's also the name of a character on The Jersey Shore) Don't you suppose that I'd react professionally when it presents itself?

Why do you bother to ask again and again?
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Old 14-04-2011, 11:12 PM   #6
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I dont recall ever asking. Sorry you grumpy old bear. (paws for laughter) I don't think you to be heartless or spocklike. No one could write the way you do and be robotic. I was just wondering if you would refer them to a counselor or something after they teared up, groaned or the like. Never saw the jersey shore other than wildwood in my youth. Consider this my last time asking you for any advice on this topic and Feldenkrais. I will just read and digest. Why would a teacher wish to teach the same thing over and over again anyway.
Enjoy your evening.
Sincerely,
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Old 14-04-2011, 11:59 PM   #7
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I have said repeatedly here and in many other places that I consider competent counseling to be the first choice when patients need it. I have NO training in this regard and it amazes me that you could contend you don't know I feel this way.

You claim not to know this by now? I'm not buying that.
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Old 15-04-2011, 12:45 AM   #8
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I am not selling anything.

Based on the highlighted quote above, I simply asked how you would handle the situation if it did occur. A simple reply here on SomaSimple would have been thoughtful and well received. It could have gone like this.... If an emotional reaction did arise I would (insert your answer here...) Do you remove contact with the patient? Does that stop the ideomotion? Do you hand them a kleenex and wait? All things one who has no way near the experience you do would need to know if the situation did occur so they knew how to handle it appropriately. Then you could tell us how you would approach the counseling referral tactfully.

I see no reason for your unbelief and am put off by it.

May your question and answer period in Vancouver be more to your liking.
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Old 15-04-2011, 01:45 AM   #9
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I'm not speaking to five-year-olds here and any of the answers you think would have been appropriate would be found patronizing. Do you need to be told how I behave so that you know what to do?

I don't tell others how to practice. I never have.

Ideomotion is inherent to life, not my handling. Yet another thing said here many, many times you seem to have missed
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Old 15-04-2011, 01:57 AM   #10
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I assumed you were a teacher not just a spewer of information. Yes, I do want to know what you do. Since your simple contact appears to elicit the inherent motion I would like to know if the removal of contact would stop the ideomotion. Is that such a terrible question. Do you let go of the contact and allow composure to be restored? Do you keep the contact and allow the story to unfold ? Do you use your professional judgment in a case by case scenario? Do you even care to expound on your Simple Contact so that others may try to utilize it effectively and correctly or are you all spew and no education. Frankly you appear to me to be defensive and obnoxious. Who is the five year old? Take your ball and go home Barrett it looks like I am not playing the way you like.
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Old 15-04-2011, 03:30 AM   #11
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Deb, there IS no "correctly" in eliciting ideomotion, just effective - and that depends on each patient foremost, and the practitioner.

Not one session is the same as the next. Not one trigger is the same as the next. Not one therapist is the same as another - all we share is a code of ethics.
We have to find our own way in therapy with the basic information we gather.
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Old 15-04-2011, 05:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Do you need to be told how I behave so that you know what to do?

I don't tell others how to practice. I never have.

I had to comment here because I really appreciate the fact that you do not try to tell others how to do their work. I just finished Segment One with Anat Baniel and she said that this was one of the things Moshe Feldenkrais had said to her -- "Never let anyone tell you how to do your work."

I believe this is the reason she broke away from the confines of the Feldenkrais Guild to teach her own method. No one should/can tell a therapist these things. Common sense and acting instinctively and authentically to the situation at hand is a big part of our work and no one can teach that.

Another thing to note here is that communication is limited via a discussion board and taking Barrett's course would probably allow for the best idea of what SC is and how it works. I sure hope Barrett is teaching when I am done my Anat Baniel Method training so that I can take his course and experience what he writes about here.

My two cents,

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Old 15-04-2011, 11:57 AM   #13
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Thanks.

This isn't the first time I've come across another therapist who wants to be told how to practice despite years of personal experience. An absence of faith in their own judgment seems to be the common thread. In this instance I'm also being asked precisely what I'd do so that, I guess, it might be mimicked.

Yesterday I was wondering about a patient's response to care on the nursing unit. She certainly appears better to me in a number of ways but I know the nurse will have had experiences with her otherwise. I noted however that the nurse who floats around the building was passing meds in my patient's hallway and she has never answered a question with anythng other than, "I don't know. I'm just filling in." She says this without looking at me. Ever.

For reasons obvious to me I didn't ask.

We behave the way we do for complex reasons and the individual nature of our care should reflect the unique aspects of our patient's being. To me, this isn't the problem with practice, it's the beauty of it, and I won't ask another to resolve it for me.

Deb will probably say, "I just want to know what you do. After all, you're a teacher and I'm trying to act like a respectful student." But this BB isn't for children. It's for people in practice; adults with their own inclinations and knowledge of their personal situations.

I respect that, even if they don't.
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Old 15-04-2011, 01:40 PM   #14
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I am a PTA. I have been a PTA for 12 years in a SNF. I went back to school after a failed marriage, as a single Mother at the age of (well over 40). Suffice it to say my experience is limited and I am not allowed by law to practice as I like. I must follow the PT's treatment plan despite their rote by rote practice. So I appreciate some good instruction. I do not need to be spoon fed and was not asking to be.
I wouldn't waste my money on a simple contact course. It appears all we need to do is read about it here and develop our own reveal technique and go with our experience and instincts and have a beautiful therapy practice. Seems to me if this was the case Barrett would have a thriving private practice with employees of his own who have grasped this elusive but effective, as Bas says, technique. I think I will go take a Barnes course and actually see what Barrett and Diane continually complain about here. I was hoping to calm down a little overnight but when I am treated like a child and then have Barrett assume he knows how I am thinking and what I would say is maddening not to mention frustrating. I wouldn't mimic any of Barrett's traits consciously. I wouldn't call him a teacher either. Educators find a way to come to the level of their students individually and bring them up to theirs in a nurturing manner. I should have known better than to ask a question of the great OZ again.
Each time I do I get the same response from him. So Barrett maybe you will understand this.\V/ LIVE LONG AND PROSPER. \V/

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Old 15-04-2011, 01:46 PM   #15
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Wow. That is outright nasty.
You have the temerity to join a group, pluck all you can from the offered materials, and THEN dare to complain when you do not get what you demand?!?
I think you need to step back and think hard about what that tells you about yourself.
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Old 15-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #16
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Show me a demand. I asked a simple question on SomaSimple. Simply that nothing more. Your answer was the best response I got. Thank you.
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Old 15-04-2011, 03:37 PM   #17
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You're welcome.

Let's take a look:
Quote:
Do you use your professional judgment in a case by case scenario?
If you do not see this as insulting, I can't help you. (Will he say "no" or "yes"?....Duh)


Quote:
So I appreciate some good instruction.
That clearly appears to be a demand.
Especially since in all the writings, discussions and posts about SC, it has been made abundantly clear how unique the corrective process of each individual is.

Thus: the basic understanding of SC with its complex neurophysiology, joined by the standards of practice and ethics of each professional give us enough structure and foundation to decide on a case by case basis, whether to refer for counselling (this includes the "how, when and where") or not.
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Old 15-04-2011, 04:32 PM   #18
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Sorry SS was not to your liking Deb. Clearly it doesn't suit every visitor, and if you don't like it here, you are free to leave.

Quote:
my experience is limited and I am not allowed by law to practice as I like. I must follow the PT's treatment plan despite their rote by rote practice
I could be a mile off, and if I am, you can ignore all this, but it sounds to me like you are frustrated, either with
1) having to do things the way other people say (in life) or with
2) not being told exactly what to do and how (here).

If it's the latter, no way can you possibly drag that out of Barrett, because he doesn't "know", and it can't happen anyway until he gets his hands against someone's neuromatrix.
He is content to say he doesn't "know."
He is correct to say he doesn't "know."
He is science-based to say he doesn't "know."
He is educative to say he doesn't "know".
He is treating you as a professional equal by saying he doesn't "know."
He is making you face your own cognitive dissonance by saying he doesn't "know."

On the other hand, he doesn't argue with anyone who can plausibly explain their own rationale in any way that makes sense, because that person could be right.. he doesn't "know". But he does know what isn't plausible, and that's why he is valuable to have here - he's a walking Occam's Razor of manual therapy. (If it came down to a battle and someone had to go, you or him, the board would keep him.)

People who do say they "know" are big fat liars. All any of us in manual therapy ever do is work with plausible hypotheses. If you happen to be someone who needs certainty, and if what I quoted you saying above is true, then this is exactly the wrong place for you, I'm afraid, at least right now.

If your frustration is about having to do things the way somebody else dictates, then sorry, there is no way we can help you with that, either. We've all been in those sorts of situations too. I used to hate that. We can't fix that part of the system, not all by ourselves. This is a think tank, kinda leaky. Maybe it's more like a compost bin. Whatever it is, it isn't exactly a political action committee. Being in a job where you have specific things to do, told to you by others, is "safe" in that you can always lay blame at someone else's feet, but at the same time you will never feel that your own intellect ever gets the respect it deserves.

In either case, your apparent frustration is becoming irritation, is becoming more directed, more personal. It's beginning to cross over into vituperativeness.

Maybe it would be better for you at the moment to go "waste money" on someone who does promise you such a thing as certainty (not in the long run, but in the short term). You could always return after you realize you let yourself be treated like a child yet again, never ever got your money's worth (none of the rest of us ever felt we did, which is how we ended up here.) Whatever you decide to do I wish you the best.
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Old 15-04-2011, 10:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Even though you say you have never seen an emotion arise other than laughter or surprise during instinctive movement what would you do if emotions did occur?
Would you "stop" them? What if it were an integral part oftheir story which needed telling?
I have seen moans and groans during "unwinding demonstrations" from one traveling PT, didn't seem harmful and the subject felt better after.
For the record, I don't recall Barrett saying that he'd never witnessed a patient emote other than laughter or surprise during instinctive movement, much less that he would attempt to stop them. However, I distinctly recall Barrett indicating that the elicitation of emotion, while not uncommon, is neither a goal of our treatment nor something that we should attempt to analyze within the context of the physical therapy interaction. I agree with Barrett that we are simply not trained to address whatever meaning these emotions might have, so why would we let this "information" dictate our treatment?

If interrupting treatment to offer a tearful or otherwise emotionally distraught patient a tissue, or even to ask if they'd like to continue the session, out of basic human compassion and courtesy would be construed as part of some complex clinical decision-making process based on some wacky theory of emotional entrapment within certain tissues underlying the pain problem, then I think a sense of our basic humanity has been lost somewhere along the way.

I don't know why Barrett would show anything other than the same level of human compassion that any even modestly experienced clinician would in such a situation, so I find the premise of Deb's question stunningly inaccurate and not subtly insulting.
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Old 15-04-2011, 11:04 PM   #20
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Deb,

Imagine you are someone who wants to become a good artist and elicit some satisfying paintings out of your brain. You can go to art classes for instruction, but all you can achieve from the teacher are some guidelines and hints.
He/she cannot tell you how to put the image in your mind onto canvas; that is up to you. You can be inspired by the teacher's words, but there are no rules or instructions to closely follow. He/she facilitates your creativity.

Think of SC in the same way. Also it might help to think of Barrett as a facilitator - not a teacher.

Re emotional patients: some of them express emotions far more readily than others. That's human nature. We deal with tearful patients as we might a child who has skinned a knee in a fall; tell them it's OK, and wait for them to recover. Inviting patients to 'express emotion' as though we were cheering on a football team is just plain silly and not in our or the patients' best interests.

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Old 15-04-2011, 11:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nari View Post
Deb,


Think of SC in the same way. Also it might help to think of Barrett as a facilitator - not a teacher. He facilitates a lot, just not in a good way for me.

Inviting patients to 'express emotion' as though we were cheering on a football team is just plain silly and not in our or the patients' best interests.

Nari
I never said I would invite the patient to express emotion. I asked what he would do if it was part of their ideomotor spontaneous story. Big difference.
Deb

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Old 16-04-2011, 12:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
If an emotion is part of the instinctive movement
This is your assumption.
Emotion can occur during a session. Big difference.
So the contradiction is due to your assumption.
Quote:
How does he differentiate when we shouldn't interrupt and when we should?
He will not, and should not differentiate for anyone.
I repeat that each and every single interaction with a patient is unique, and as John says above, "human compassion" and standards of practice should guide in us each of those. Whether emotions occur or not.

One of my patients literally wailed - another softly cried. Yet another cried with relief, and yet another laughed and giggled. Not one was the same as another.
What advice could I or Barrett possibly give regarding our handling of these that you don't already know?

- hand them a tissue.
- respond to whatever follows next.

And you can't tell me you didn't know this yet.
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Old 15-04-2011, 11:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Withdrawal, protection and resolution.

Can you see how these characteristics are similar?

Perhaps with their instinctive movement our patients are trying to tell us a story – their story.

We shouldn’t interrupt them.
Can't you see the contradictory statements Barrett makes. If an emotion is part of the instinctive movement which "WE SHOULDN'T INTERRUPT..."

How does he handle that if it comes up? He tells us that what the MFR crowd is doing is not acceptable. I never asked about that. I have no experience with that other than what I have read or seen demonstrated which I previously described. I truly doubt I would tolerate wailing and performance as it has to have a different quality than authentic ideomotion. How does he differentiate when we shouldn't interrupt and when we should?

Simple question. I am not trying to be difficult just trying to get some consistency from the man. If I were a racecar driver on the same team as Barrett and Barrett had run a 100 laps around the track before me, would it be wrong for me to ask where he felt the track had the most grip? It is a handling question which is seeking an opinion based on experience. He is not telling me how to behave.
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Old 16-04-2011, 12:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
I never said I would invite the patient to express emotion. I asked what he would do if it was part of their ideomotor spontaneous story. Big difference.
I was speaking generally in terms of how some therapists would encourage expression.
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He facilitates a lot, just not in a good way for me.
Then, as others have said, SS may not be an appropriate learning place for you.

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Old 16-04-2011, 12:59 AM   #25
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This PTA is simply unwilling to listen or read with any comprehension, though she will obviously deny that.

Deb,

Please. Go. Away.
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Old 16-04-2011, 04:24 PM   #26
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Not. A. Chance.
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Old 16-04-2011, 04:42 PM   #27
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How does he differentiate when we shouldn't interrupt and when we should?
Again, Deb, when you walk into the room to treat the patient, you become the treating clinician, but this doesn't mean you stop being a human being. The treating clinician should not interrupt a patient's creative expression towards resolution, but, in the relatively rare event that another human being emotes in a way that appeals to the clinician's basic humanity, well, of course, you may need to pause to behave as a normal, empathic and courteous human being.

Your inability to grasp this distinction mystifies me. Maybe you have confusion about where your own roles and boundaries exist? I know those people over at the MFR chat room do.
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:21 PM   #28
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I guess what you are saying it is up to me to be the expert in all interactions and use my discretion. I have a great grasp of that concept and reality,John. Thank you for your response. You seem to think I am just asking about sobbing or crying. What about anger, frustration, mistrust issue. If an emotion of anger is associated with the ideomotion. Say an elite quarterback was being seen by you who sprained his ankle in the last game of the regular season and is not able to play in the playoffs. This effects his college chances as well. It is now 8 weeks after a grade III sprain and pain persists. Your handling/context approach reveals ideomotor behavior from this athlete and he starts to vent his anger. That to me would be an appropriate and beneficial part of his "story". I would allow that to continue. What if you were treating a chronic pain patient who is female and they became angry and you had no idea where the anger was seeded or directed too. Is that a boundry you do not cross and try to redirect them to talk to someone? AND WHY? If you are to be humanitarian maybe by letting the anger continue she would be helped and after she calmed on her own one could direct here to someone more qualified to deal with psyches. I know I write concisely but i hope you get the gist of what I am saying.
Again thanks for your response.
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:22 PM   #29
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Gee John. Don't you think that's a little harsh?

Deb has proven to be very fragile here and I think we sho... Sorry, couldn't keep a straight face.

Actually, I'm waiting to be asked how many seconds I should wait after one behavior of my own/the patient's before I decide to act in another way so that those out there know exactly what I would do.

Suppose the quarterback got some desperately needed attention from a girl who had otherwise ignored him? He might see this ankle problem as a blessing. Of course, you'd have to really "get into his head" in order to know this. Heck, he might not know it himself.

Our patients aren't soap operas we can watch for our own amusement. Do I need to say more?
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:29 PM   #30
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Barrett,
Is there a SCIENTIFIC DOUBLE BLIND PEER REVIEWED STUDY ON MY FRAGILITY?
How did you arrive at your conclusion and I just don't want anecdotes.
Thanks. Now do you want to wait til festivus for the physical challenges or should i get on my stallion and mossy on to Ohio?
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:48 PM   #31
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Deb, watch it.
This is the second time.
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:37 PM   #32
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When I said you were fragile I was obviously making a joke. Actually, I don't know what you might be.

That thing about festivus makes no sense, but maybe that's just me.

I made the point that you were imaging you knew why a patient was angry or tearful. I presume you would ask them and expect the answer to be the reason. Clearly, you have no sense of the intricacies of careful and competent counseling if you think it works in this fashion.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for your patients. I mean that sincerely.
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post

That thing about festivus makes no sense, but maybe that's just me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:49 PM   #34
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No one knows the "why" Barrett. One may think they do based on some deduction. And even when you ask someone what is going on, one doesn't "know" 100% positively.
Read that somewhere.
Deb

My patients are fine and our interaction at work is beneficial for both parties involved. I do not use simple contact ideomotion and the majority of the emotions I run into are those associated with sadness and longing about being in a SNF and not being able to return home. I can assure you I know how to behave in those situations.

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Old 16-04-2011, 05:59 PM   #35
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Barrett,
I felt the festivus line was quite clever since we have already aired the grievances we would move on to feats of strength. I misremembered it as physical challenges, my bad.

Okay Diane I will scabbard my wit and get back to being the nice Catholic girl that I am.

Deb

I am a country girl Barrett. Grew up on a farm and ride horses, chop wood and the like. Just a reference to my "physicalness".
ok I am done now...

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Old 16-04-2011, 05:53 PM   #36
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Tony,

A Seinfeld fan, I know what it is, but I'm guessing you knew that and included the link for those here we might call "Costanza deprived."

My confusion arises from the comment's context. Also that thing about "stallion and mossy."

Couldn't find anything on Google about that.
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Old 16-04-2011, 05:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Tony,

A Seinfeld fan, I know what it is, but I'm guessing you knew that and included the link for those here we might call "Costanza deprived."

My confusion arises from the comment's context. Also that thing about "stallion and mossy."

Couldn't find anything on Google about that.
gotcha! shoulda known
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:06 PM   #38
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Deb, I don't see John mentioning "sobbing and crying" anywhere.
His comment
Quote:
in the relatively rare event that another human being emotes in a way that appeals to the clinician's basic humanity
applies to the whole gamut of human emotions.

I do not know what to say about your example-scenarios. I was not in the room, not the therapist, don't know the patient.....
Those requests for "what would you do" are almost always totally pointless.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:18 PM   #39
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Thanks Bas,
The title of this thread is Without Interruption. I was simply asking if there is a time to interrupt? I now understand that it is based on case by case scenario's, therapist knowledge and judgements and as Diane wrote...we don't know.
So what was the point of the original post? Was it to point out the benefits of Ideomotion as an integral part of the patients storytelling? And that we as the interactor should use all the information we can glean from our interactions towards the resolution of the contracted complaint in which we are intimately engaged with the patient?
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:01 PM   #40
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Deb,

Effective professional counseling takes a long time and REQUIRES that a trained and competent professional be involved. Time, careful revelation, a secure venue, an appreciation of ambiguity and uncertainty and many other factors are involved. Many seem to want to reduce all of that to an emotional outburst and a couple of questions in the PT gym.

This attitude may be good enough for the MFR people, but it's insulting to an entire profession.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:05 PM   #41
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Thank you Barrett. I am aware that there is much more involved than just the outburst and do not profess to be a trained psychologist.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Say an elite quarterback was being seen by you who sprained his ankle in the last game of the regular season and is not able to play in the playoffs. This effects his college chances as well. It is now 8 weeks after a grade III sprain and pain persists. Your handling/context approach reveals ideomotor behavior from this athlete and he starts to vent his anger.
To presume that you know that this is the reason behind this patient's expression of anger- if that's what he is authentically expressing- is well beyond your clinical role. For all you know, it's bluster, and he couldn't be happier to be out of the play-offs and to be relieved of his parents', coaches', etc. expectations of future grandeur. Isn't that a possibility?

Emotions and motives are tricky things, that's why certain people decide to study them and treat disorders that emanate from their often circuitous and confounding manifestations. Emotional disorders are NOT within our purview. How could we possibly know for sure that the outward emotional expressions we see are authentic much less where they come from? I just default to assuming that they are real and respond on the basic level of an understanding and empathic fellow human. There is not one more thing that I can do than that.

I'll tell you one thing, if some guy a lot bigger and stronger than me starts getting p.o'd while I'm holding onto his injured ankle, I'm letting go.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:19 PM   #43
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I want to keep saying: "It depends, it depends! On so many things!"

Then John makes his point about the guy being much bigger and pissed off - no matter what the variables - I would let go too!
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:21 PM   #44
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Deb, it is not about information we glean from ideomotion: ideomotion IS the therapy - the corrective movement for their problem.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:24 PM   #45
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Right Bas. I meant what we may glean from the emotion if it occurs. And I understand that is totally subjective and oft times than not is 100% wrong.
Thanks again.
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Old 16-04-2011, 06:57 PM   #46
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Which of these statements is true?

We should avoid sailing our ships to the edge of the earth lest we fall over the edge and perish.

We should re-design our ships so that they can withstand the forces of falling over the edge of the earth so that we don't perish when and if we do fall over the edge of the earth.

My confusion persists.
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Old 16-04-2011, 07:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
My scenario was : Never stop or stop.
Deb,

Your premise is mistaken.

I'll avoid metaphors in the future when responding to your posts.

I won't respond at all to the rest of your last comment because I have no idea what a word of it means.
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Old 16-04-2011, 08:00 PM   #48
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John,

I'm relieved to hear that I'm not the only one.
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Old 16-04-2011, 08:42 PM   #49
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Sorry to confuse you. Seems easy enough to me. The beauty of simplicity.
Is there a time when ideomotor motion should be interrupted? My answer is yes.
This is based on what I have read here and it is dependent on context and understanding of my role as a PTA. I am not a counselor and haven't suggested I was capable to be one in any situation.
When I read the first post I get we should not interrupt ideomotor activity. My question was ...What if it includes emotions as described by the MFR group?
Seemed to contradict what I have come to understand. Period.
So can anyone answer my question in post#48?
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Old 16-04-2011, 09:27 PM   #50
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You seem to think that if you ask the same question repeatedly that this will change something.

You seem to think that emotive responses to context are the same thing as motor responses to context. I understand that you're not a counselor and I hope you get this - they're not.

I have no hope that this will satisfy your quest.

For some reason, I can hear my eldest sister Ladonna when I was a child and she was 11 years my senior. She'd grab me and ask, "What is the matter with you?"

I didn't know then, and I can't figure this out either.
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