Baniel's Brainstorm

[Barrett Dorko]

Thank you for posting.

You haven't interrupted anything. Specific answers to our questions have not appeared as promised and the thread was dead - just like the moderators (ha, ha).

I like your thinking. James Gleick's Faster comes to mind as well as the massive volume of work done on mirror neurons the past few years.

Might we have a name?

[colinaliz]

Hi,
I looked back at my post and was astonished at my Freudian slip. I wrote the long post last night. Thank you for asking - my name is Deborah R. Brandt, (colinaliz).

I want to enter the discussion re: pain, but have inadvertently erased it twice. My Freudian slip keeps slipping. This will be short so that it will get to you.
Deborah

[boneill]

I recently came across this article by Anat Baniel at Huffington post, low back pain is it all in your head?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anat-baniel/low-back-pain-is-it-reall_b_672474.html

Bryan

[DanO]

I checked the site today and saw that Anat has been on SS before and was so excited!

I will be attending her 2011 training starting in March as a result of the outcome my 4 yr old daughter has had at her center. We started going there in Feb 2010 and have seen incredible results.

My daughter has a mild right sided hemiplegia and any PT/OT we had tried was more than disappointing. After being at the center 4x we have seen her scoliosis almost completely disappear, she can ride her bike, put on her socks, pull up her pants, and do so many other functional things that she struggled with before. We have also seen a drastic improvement in her confidence and self-awareness.

I hope to see Anat post here again and I encourage Barrett to invite her on here to continue the process. She is an extremely busy person and is in the middle of writing her 2nd book which will be more focused on her work with children with special needs (which is where she absolutely shines!).

Looking forward to this thread evolving.


DanO, RMT

[Barrett Dorko]

DanO,

I've made countless attempts to engage the Feldenkrais community in conversation, all of them fruitless. This includes Baniel, who, aside from posting some promotional comments here, followed our questioning with complete silence.

We did NOT abandon the conversation, it died secondary to the silence I have found typical from that community once actual neuroscience and issues regarding pain are mentioned.

That's my conclusion today, and, as always, I'll come to another given good evidence to the contrary.

[DanO]

Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko

DanO,

I've made countless attempts to engage the Feldenkrais community in conversation, all of them fruitless. This includes Baniel, who, aside from posting some promotional comments here, followed our questioning with complete silence.

We did NOT abandon the conversation, it died secondary to the silence I have found typical from that community once actual neuroscience and issues regarding pain are mentioned.

I'm just not sure that she was making any more promotional comments here than you have made for Simple Contact and if there is any way around that. My other concern/question is if anyone took Anat up on the offer to communicate with her via her web blog?

My two cents,

DanO

[Barrett Dorko]

DanO,

I don't object to what Baniel did - it's what she didn't do that irritates me.

Now we're supposed to chase her around?

Isn't there ANYBODY in that community willing to speak here?

[DanO]

For what it's worth I am looking forward to bringing what I have learned here into the upcoming training I will be attending with her. Maybe then I'll be able to shed some light on this topic or encourage some others to do so.

DanO

[John W]

DanO,
Unless they're selling consumer products, like Ron from Ronco, I'm reflexively dubious of someone who attaches their name directly to their method.

It's almost as if she dropped in here so she could pee around the bushes a little and leave her scent, and then she swiftly headed back out to the West Coast to advance the "Anat Baniel Method," perhaps hoping to bring some of us in tow to add further scientific credence to her treatment approach.

This board remains one of the few places where self-promotion remains a distant second to discussion among inquisitive and curious clinicians. I don't see how this can happen at a weblog where the developer's name is emblazoned across the top of it.

Soma Simple is different, and I'm disappointed that Ms. Baniel didn't take the time to recognize that.

[toddhargrove]

I am in my second year of Feldenkrais training, if you have questions I will try to answer. Not sure if I will be of much help though.

[DanO]

I appreciate your thoughts John and also have questions. From what I can tell on SS there is a certain amount of respect for Moshe Feldenkrais who called his method by his name and I'm not sure what the issue is there. Of course there are other examples of this like Melzack's neuromatirx model, Hanna Somatics... maybe these guys just weren't all that concerned with thinking up some fancy PC name for their approach. So why be so discriminative towards them.

I guess my issue with this judgement you have passed is where does it end? For instance is it really necessary for you to attach your credentials?

Originally Posted by John W

John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists

I don't wish to quarrel and I am very much a supporter of advancing the theoretical underpinnings of professions that deal with manual therapies/pain problems, but really how petty can we get?


Losing respect,

DanO, RMT

[Bas Asselbergs]

Sorry to hear that Dano.
The marketing John alluded to relates to the weblog; and for the rest, how can you compare Melzack's model - free of charge to learn and read - to a method to be learned in a course? There's nothing wrong with providing a course in a certain approach, but HERE on SS, the idea is to delve into the deeper model behind an approach. Anyone presenting a course, logging on here and then leaving without any further exploration of the questions raised, should be scrutinized a bit!

And what is the comment about credentials all about? Don't YOU have RMT behind your name?

It is extremely ironic that you raise the concept of "pettiness"....

[Karen L]

Dear DanO,

I will be attending her 2011 training starting in March as a result of the outcome my 4 yr old daughter has had at her center. We started going there in Feb 2010 and have seen incredible results.

My daughter has a mild right sided hemiplegia and any PT/OT we had tried was more than disappointing. After being at the center 4x we have seen her scoliosis almost completely disappear, she can ride her bike, put on her socks, pull up her pants, and do so many other functional things that she struggled with before. We have also seen a drastic improvement in her confidence and self-awareness.

I am sorry your daughter had a serious condition and that you had difficulty getting it sorted out. Nobody wants a loved one, especially their child to have physical impairments. Apparently you were very impressed with the care you received. I was curious, did your daughter have a pediatric stroke and what was the etiology of the scoliosis. How do you think the physiotherapists differed in their approach to her problems, as opposed to the work at the center you mentioned?

Barrett in post #8

It is the perception – the capture – of subtle alterations in things like use, movement, effort, texture and temperature that often separates the ectodermal perspective from the mesodermal.

How do you as a registered massage therapist reconcile what you do, with what you are about to learn. You are about to enter a huge period of cognitive dissonance that the people here have been through already. If you are to truly grasp what Baniel/Feldenkrais you will need to understand the nervous system on a whole different level. That is what you will find at Soma Simple if you stick around.

Don't fall into the trap of cherry picking modalities without understanding the foundation of their efficacy.

Karen L
RMT

[regnalt deux]

Originally Posted by John W

DanO,
Unless they're selling consumer products, like Ron from Ronco, I'm reflexively dubious of someone who attaches their name directly to their method.

It's almost as if she dropped in here so she could pee around the bushes a little and leave her scent, and then she swiftly headed back out to the West Coast to advance the "Anat Baniel Method," perhaps hoping to bring some of us in tow to add further scientific credence to her treatment approach.

This board remains one of the few places where self-promotion remains a distant second to discussion among inquisitive and curious clinicians. I don't see how this can happen at a weblog where the developer's name is emblazoned across the top of it.

Soma Simple is different, and I'm disappointed that Ms. Baniel didn't take the time to recognize that.

I've worked on my own method, or process, for a long time, but would never name it after myself. The concept should be bigger than one person. The Anat Baniel Method is a bit self indulgent, and it initially caused skepticism on my part, but it doesn't really bother me too much. There are so many practitioners of voodoo-type therapies that deserve our ire.

BTW I had a relatively new client come in today with shoulder pain. I gently held his thorax and sacrum to elicit a parasympathetic response and ideomotor activity and then moved onto a few other positions. The session was powerful and he left amazed and pain-free, but not before asking, "what do you call that again?" My response, "resolution." Maybe I should apply for a trademark!
________
dispensaries

[regnalt deux]

Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs

Sorry to hear that Dano.
HERE on SS, the idea is to delve into the deeper model behind an approach.

The wording next to Barrett's forums: This discussion is devoted to the latest advances in neuroscience and the clinical phenomena it explains.
________
List of Toyota manufacturing facilities picture

[DanO]

Bas,

Petty was probably a poor word choice and my example in retrospect is also poor. Nitpicky may have been a better word choice and my example was an attempt to display this, again poor example.

Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs

There's nothing wrong with providing a course in a certain approach, but HERE on SS, the idea is to delve into the deeper model behind an approach. Anyone presenting a course, logging on here and then leaving without any further exploration of the questions raised, should be scrutinized a bit!

Agreed. But I also don't think it is fair to anyone to speak about them such harsh ways. If we were all face to face in the same room I do hope there would be more respect shown than that of comparing someone to a dog!

If I was one of the invited guests here and I showed up only to find cruel remarks written about me I definitely wouldn't feel welcomed and would not want to engage any further in discussions.

I do feel that everyone deserves a chance and educating people about the ectoderm vs. the mesoderm would probably work out better if we didn't create such a resistance in the first place.

DanO

[DanO]

Originally Posted by Karen L

I am sorry your daughter had a serious condition and that you had difficulty getting it sorted out. Nobody wants a loved one, especially their child to have physical impairments. Apparently you were very impressed with the care you received. I was curious, did your daughter have a pediatric stroke and what was the etiology of the scoliosis. How do you think the physiotherapists differed in their approach to her problems, as opposed to the work at the center you mentioned?

She still HAS a neurological condition, that will always be the case. She most likely had a mild stroke in utero and that is how this came about. The PT/OT we did was Bobath NDT and sensory integration... as stated before both were more than disappointing. The ABM is feldenkrais for pediatrics although not limited to that population. It's foundations are based around the brain's ability to change = neuroplasticity.

Originally Posted by Karen L

How do you as a registered massage therapist reconcile what you do, with what you are about to learn. You are about to enter a huge period of cognitive dissonance that the people here have been through already. If you are to truly grasp what Baniel/Feldenkrais you will need to understand the nervous system on a whole different level. That is what you will find at Soma Simple if you stick around.

Don't fall into the trap of cherry picking modalities without understanding the foundation of their efficacy.

I have spent the last year and a half researching everything brain including ideomotion and I do not feel that there will be any cognitive dissonance whatsoever upon entering the ABM training. By no means am I an "expert" when it comes to all things neurological but I appreciate the theories I have come across so far and am very excited to take in more, for my patients sake but mostly for my daughter.

Originally Posted by regnalt deux

My response, "resolution." Maybe I should apply for a trademark!

Funny!

DanO

[regnalt deux]

Originally Posted by DanO

Bas,

Petty was probably a poor word choice and my example in retrospect is also poor. Nitpicky may have been a better word choice and my example was an attempt to display this, again poor example.

Agreed. But I also don't think it is fair to anyone to speak about them such harsh ways. If we were all face to face in the same room I do hope there would be more respect shown than that of comparing someone to a dog!

If I was one of the invited guests here and I showed up only to find cruel remarks written about me I definitely wouldn't feel welcomed and would not want to engage any further in discussions.

I do feel that everyone deserves a chance and educating people about the ectoderm vs. the mesoderm would probably work out better if we didn't create such a resistance in the first place.

DanO

DanO,

First, I'd like to say I hope your daughter continues to improve. My little girls are similar age and I can relate, as a dad, to your experience. Best of luck!

Secondly, I think there's a bit of frustration from Anat's (lack of) participation. It's valid. So is her right to remain silent. However by saying nothing she says a lot....

Todd
________
vapor genie vaporizer

[DanO]

Originally Posted by regnalt deux

The wording next to Barrett's forums: This discussion is devoted to the latest advances in neuroscience and the clinical phenomena it explains.

I LOVE this statement and I also have a great appreciation for this site, in fact I may have even first heard of Anat Baniel here... I look forward to gaining a deeper understanding and at some point feeling comfortable enough to make some meaningful contributions here.

Thanks,

DanO

[Strawfoot]

Originally Posted by DanO

I appreciate your thoughts John and also have questions. From what I can tell on SS there is a certain amount of respect for Moshe Feldenkrais who called his method by his name and I'm not sure what the issue is there.

Not trying to be an ass, but he never really did, did he? As far as I know he called his work functional integration and awareness through movement. The "Feldenkrais method" is a later abbreviation and a registered trademark that I think is owned by the feldenkrais guild of NA.

Point is that Feldenkrais didn´t lend his name to the work, this was done by others a year or so after his death. A bit off topic perhaps, but..

[John W]

DanO,

It's interesting to me that you would use my characterization of Anat's brief appearance here to that of a dog staking it out its territory by leaving its scent as "comparing her to a dog."

Two things strike me about your characterization. First, regular participants on this site often use biological metaphors to describe the behavior of people. I think it's just the way many of us think, i.e. in scientific, biological terms. Using such metaphors reminds us that we are, after all, biological entities with instincts and appetites.

Secondly, perhaps this underscores a risk in using one's name to identify one's method. On this forum we frequently cross paths with individuals who are unable to separate their ideas from who they are. When you name your method with your own name, then you have, perhaps unwittingly, set yourself up for such potential conflation. Ego has been injected into the discussion before the discussion has begun. The implication is "this is my method, do you dare question it (me)?"

Frankly, I couldn't care less what she calls her method or her weblog. In fact, all the power to the marketing of her method. It's better than most of the crap out there. Bas is right. I was critical of the suggestion that we go to her weblog to discuss her method instead of discussing it with her here.

I will continue to show my credentials after my name in a shameless act of self-promotion or until I become too embarrassed and ashamed to include them (although not for the reasons you might think). However, I will not charge one red cent for my method- likely since it doesn't exist.

[DanO]

Originally Posted by Strawfoot

Point is that Feldenkrais didn´t lend his name to the work, this was done by others a year or so after his death. A bit off topic perhaps, but..

Interesting. I was unaware of that.

[DanO]

Originally Posted by John W

DanO,

It's interesting to me that you would use my characterization of Anat's brief appearance here to that of a dog staking it out its territory by leaving its scent as "comparing her to a dog."

Two things strike me about your characterization. First, regular participants on this site often use biological metaphors to describe the behavior of people. I think it's just the way many of us think, i.e. in scientific, biological terms. Using such metaphors reminds us that we are, after all, biological entities with instincts and appetites.

Secondly, perhaps this underscores a risk in using one's name to identify one's method. On this forum we frequently cross paths with individuals who are unable to separate their ideas from who they are. When you name your method with your own name, then you have, perhaps unwittingly, set yourself up for such potential conflation. Ego has been injected into the discussion before the discussion has begun. The implication is "this is my method, do you dare question it (me)?"

Frankly, I couldn't care less what she calls her method or her weblog. In fact, all the power to the marketing of her method. It's better than most of the crap out there. Bas is right. I was critical of the suggestion that we go to her weblog to discuss her method instead of discussing it with her here.

I will continue to show my credentials after my name in a shameless act of self-promotion or until I become too embarrassed and ashamed to include them (although not for the reasons you might think). However, I will not charge one red cent for my method- likely since it doesn't exist.

John,

I think you have some good points and I am willing to take them in. I also realize that with this form of communication a lot can be lost in translation, which is why I tend to shy away from it.

Anat has helped our family tremendously and will continue to do so in the future. Mostly I think I have been a little upset with how she's been talked about here.

DanO

PS I hope you get over the credentials thing, like I said it was a BAD example!

[John W]

DanO,

I appreciate where you're coming from. This form of communication does indeed have its limitations and hazards, which is why both careful preparation and interpretation of comments is necessary.

You seem to be a thoughtful and passionate clinician and parent (perhaps even a fellow Irishman, which is where much of the passion comes from ). I think I am as well. Both of us probably want better opportunities for health and success for our colleagues and patients, as well as our children, in the future.

In fact, these are the qualities that won't allow me to shy away from this discussion about the fate of movement and manual therapies.

I hope they continue to serve you in this way as well. We need many more voices.

[Jon Newman]

Perhaps Anat would find the approach we used with Steven George a more comfortable manner of communicating with SS participants.

[Karen L]

In this video it looks very much like addressing adverse neural tension. But is such a short demonstration affecting the brain neuroplastically?

Anat @ TEDXBerkeley

http://dotsub.com/view/f096a7a7-37d7...b-dd6bad55efb9

Karen

[Diane]

@Karen, depends on how you define 'neuroplastically'.

[Karen L]

Thanks Diane.

I remember you liked path walking and others on the board also use similar movement to demonstrate how uncomplicated it is to change the defense associated with mechanical deformation. Whether it is immediate or longer lasting neural changes could be determined by outcome questions and testing. The issue for many people is they are not moving enough which is where motion is lotion becomes so helpful. Over longer time frames the motions in the neural tissues as demonstrated should allow for adaptation and modulation of the pain neuromatrix to give the musculoskeletal tissues more excursion also.

I was just curious about terminology.

Karen