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The Performance Lab A place to discuss the role of physical exercise on health in diseased and non-diseased states.

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Old 20-11-2010, 03:05 AM   #51
Jon Newman
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Thanks Gilbert. Here is a link where you can download (for free) an article in which Moseley unpacks that idea a bit more.

(We probably have the article here someplace at SS also.)
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Old 20-11-2010, 03:17 AM   #52
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Here and here are some short references to the idea of "implicit perception." (links to Nature articles)
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Old 20-11-2010, 03:55 AM   #53
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Interesting how a conversation can go sideways sometimes.

In response to the original post, I personnaly think, and have some studies to back it up, that it may well be possible to add some sarcomeres to muscles with very repetitive stretches. It may be possible through a gene expression phenomenon. But for the changes to last, the stretches have to be maintained... for ever. Or else, the changes will revert back to normal after about 4 weeks. Perhaps more if you've been stretching for a big while. Maybe it will remain if you've been stretched like this but that's perhaps because some permanent damage has been done to the tissue.

Surely the in-session improvement is more likely to be only nervous system mediated through increased stretch tolerance but on a greater time scale some adaptation is likely to occur in sarcomere lenght. It will probably adapt back to your genetical homeostatic lenght when you stop being a figure skater.

So even if the lenght issue was really playing a role in the pain presentation it would be really difficult to convince the patient to keep stretching all his life once he is painfree, so then, the real lenght increases would simply not last.

Anyway, here are some references on the sarcomere explanation, they are from Eyal Lederman.

Arnoczky SP, Tian T, Lavagnino M, Gardner K, Schuler P, Morse
P 2002. Activation of stress-activated protein kinases (SAPK) in
tendon cells following cyclic strain: the effects of strain frequency,
strain magnitude, and cytosolic calcium. J Orthop Res, 20(5):947–
952.

Bosch U, Zeichen J, Skutek M, Albers I, van Griensven M,
Gassler N 2002. Effect of cyclical stretch on matrix synthesis of
human patellar tendon cells. Unfallchirurg, 105(5):437–442.

Goldspink G, Scutt PT, Loughna DJ et al. 1992. Gene expression
skeletal muscle in response to stretch and force generation. Am J
Physiol, 262:R356–R363.

Williams P, Watt P, Bicik V, Goldspink G 1986. Effect of stretch
combined with electrical stimulation on the type of sarcomeres
produced at the end of muscle fibers. Exp Neurol, 93:500–509
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Old 20-11-2010, 04:24 AM   #54
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I discovered that "sarcomerogenisis" is a useful term for researching this topic. Here's one article (full text) Effect of Muscle Tension During Tendon Transfer on Sarcomerogenesis in a Rabbit Model
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Old 20-11-2010, 04:25 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weni888 View Post
Hi all,

When Barrett said "Don't read the book, just watch some videos on YouTube", I really want to know what he really wants to say? Good or not? what arguments he holds on?


Weni
Weni, not to speak for him, bit I understood Barrett to be responding to my post about the book Awareness through Movement. I understood him to say that Feldenkrais had developed a series of planned movements that worked well for increasing ROM and reading the book isn't necessary. Watching the moves on youtube should be enough for me to learn these moves. That is what I understood anyway.

Frederic, thanks for those articles. I will try to look them up.
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Old 20-11-2010, 05:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Newman View Post
Here and here are some short references to the idea of "implicit perception." (links to Nature articles)
Also, read the See What I'm Saying thread.
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Old 21-11-2010, 01:18 AM   #57
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The following is something Bob Gajda said almost thirty years ago in a book he co-authored with the late Dr. Richard Dominguez: Total Body Training. Though we can assume that the "eighties focus" on the ability to achieve yoga-style positions in fitness tests (sit-and-reach) is no longer the standard by which athletes are assessed relative to their ability to excel in sport, his point seems worth repeating:

"If maximum flexibility were the test for athletic prowess, then victims of polio would be our best athletes. Legs that are partially or completely paralyzed have almost complete flexibility. But these partially or completely paralyzed legs are extremely unstable, and incapable of supporting weight of any sort. What we really need for athletic performance is stability throughout a full range of motion of the joint.

There is absolutely no scientific evidence that stretching a joint beyond its normal range of motion is beneficial."
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Old 22-11-2010, 02:10 AM   #58
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Feldenkrais and Length. I have been googling and have found research which actually shows increase in length and others which do not. People learn to move better with Awareness thru movement techniques but no actual sustained length as far as I can tell. Anyone have others?
  1. Hopper C, Kolt GS, McConville JC. The effects of Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement on hamstring length, flexibility and perceived exertion. J Bodywork Movement Therapies 3(4): 238-247, 1999. Peer Reviewed.
    Although the Feldenkrais Method is rapidly gaining popularity among health professionals, only a small body of empirical research has documented its efficacy. The aim of the current study was to investigate the effects of the Feldenkrais Method on flexibility, perceived exertion and hamstring length. In Study 1, 79 healthy participants undertook measurements of flexibility (sit and reach test), perceived exertion (Borg's Rating of Perceived Exertion 6-20) and hamstring length (active knee extension test) prior to being randomly allocated into a Feldenkrais or control group. The same measurements were taken after the group intervention (a Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement lesson, or control procedure). Although the Feldenkrais participants improved significantly more in sit and reach measurements than their control counterparts, no differences between the groups were found for measures of perceived exertion or hamstring length. In Study 2, a subsample of 39 participants took part in a further three intervention sessions with the three measures being take again prior to and after the fourth (final) intervention. No group differences were found for any of the outcome indicators across time. These findings are discussed in terms of implications for further research and health care practice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11676714

Feldenkrais Method®
Musculoskeletal effects: In a clinical study, Feldenkrais had no effect on hamstring length in 48 healthy volunteers (19). ...
www.naturalstandard.com/monographs/.../feldenkraismethod.asp

This one says it increased length.
Stephens J, Davidson J, Derosa J, Kriz M, Saltzman N
Phys Ther. 2006 Dec ; 86(12): 1641-50

BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: Passive stretching is widely used to increase muscle flexibility, but it has been shown that this process does not produce long-term changes in the viscoelastic properties of muscle as originally thought. The authors tested a method of lengthening hamstring muscles called "Awareness Through Movement" (ATM) that does not use passive stretching. SUBJECTS: Thirty-three subjects who were randomly assigned to ATM and control groups met the screening criteria and completed the intervention phase of the study. METHODS: The ATM group went through a process of learning complex active movements designed to increase length in the hamstring muscles. Hamstring muscle length was measured before and after intervention using the Active Knee Extension Test. RESULTS: The ATM group gained significantly more hamstring muscle length (+7.04 degrees ) compared with the control group (+1.15 degrees ). DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION: The results suggest that muscle length can be increased through a process of active movement that does not involve stretching. Further research is needed to investigate this finding.

Thanks for your help
Deb

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Old 24-11-2010, 03:50 AM   #59
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Just bumping this to see if anyone will respond constructively.
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Old 24-11-2010, 03:55 AM   #60
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Haven't we been?
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:56 AM   #61
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Good article I found somewhere and finally read. May have found it here. There is also a clarification posted that can be found here. http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/90....full.pdf+html

While this seems to reinforce the view that it is merely sensory feedback that gives us the added comfortable ROM, what mechanism would be used to actually shift the length/tension curve. The authors do not seem to think we really know from what I gathered. My next thought would be does it matter?

Link to Paper
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Last edited by Karen L; 12-01-2011 at 06:36 AM. Reason: move paper to sound of silence
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:05 PM   #62
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I haven't fully read through all the replies yet, but wanted to put my 2 cents in since I've still got some mesodermal roots in me

I have stopped doing static stretching all together, and find that repeated movements into that "stretch" position (essentially like AIS - active isolated stretching) seems to "add length" much better. I've never noticed any significant gains after doing say 3 30-second static holds, yet doing say 10 repeated movements seems to yield a more immediate and observable difference in ROM to both myself and the client.

If you think about it this can be considered like a neurodynamic mobility exercises, just applied anywhere in the body as opposed to the major nerve pathways. Just like these exercises, with my repeated movements I don't get the client to "push through the pain" but rather to move until they meet that resistance and back off. With the repetitions the point of resistance seems to move further and further into the movement with each one.

Hope this is of some help!
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Old 19-01-2011, 03:05 AM   #63
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I just received the book Strength & Conditioning: biological principles and practical applications and just began looking at the section on stretching Some statements I have enjoyed so far.

"Confusing the picture of flexibility... even more are a few publications attributing the mechanisms and effects of stretching to fanciful ideas... [then they list various quotations taken from a number of books on flexibility that are preaching fascia etc]... "for instance science has recently classified a third nervous system... called the enteric nervous system... similarly there is mounting evidence for independent roles played by the connective tissue system... all the cells get this mechanical message of movement as it undulates and reverberates through the facial network at the speed of light..." (Frederick and Frederick, 2006)

The authors respond " there is little to be gained by these types of statements... [explanation of what the enteric system is] Of course there is a great deal of financial incentive to present pseudoscientific information as fact in order to gain a competitive advantage in the marketplace and to constantly use “name dropping” rather than data and peer -reviewed studies to establish a market niche. this approach is called “cargo cult science” by the late Richard Feynman... the basic idea is that pseudoscientific treatments often include scientific terms from other fields used incorrectly, along with some of the trappings of science without the evidence or substance. There are plenty of unanswered questions concerning flexibility without resorting to fringe areas and fanciful ideas.”

I rather liked this and think I may enjoy this book. The term Cargo cult science is a new one for me but good.
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Old 19-01-2011, 12:09 PM   #64
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Karen L
Thanks for offering this quote
"Nothing Simple - Ten Steps to Understanding Manual and Movement Therapies for Pain"

I find all of these ten paragraphs fit neatly with my own concepts of there being a spinal protective behaviour. I couldn't quite make out where these came from though and by whom. Can you help?
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Old 19-01-2011, 12:30 PM   #65
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Since when is protection painful?
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Old 19-01-2011, 12:45 PM   #66
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Nociceptive stimulii generated by both the contractions of /fatigue related to and the chemistry associated with hypertonic paravertebral muscles involved in a spinal protective behaviour, ultimately leading to a threshold level of irritation which the brain may or may not add it's alert state of pain to, depending on factors outlined in karen's ten point list. This alert ( pain ) state may become more likely as spinal joint movements reduce, thus decreasing normal synovial bathing ( associated with further nociceptive stimulii because of oxygen debt to intra capsular tissues ). A reversal of this non pathological protective state, leading to cessation of nociceptive input, would account for ( in part ) the rapid reductions in local and distal pain at the effect of some spinal treatments, particularly CM.
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Old 19-01-2011, 03:32 PM   #67
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Ginger, quote was taken from the book Strength and Conditioning: Biological Principles and Practical Application. Not sure if you were asking me or Karen though.
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Old 22-01-2011, 03:17 PM   #68
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Hi Scott,

Could you please write a bit more about the book? Anything interesting? Seems to be a good one. Thanks!
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Old 24-01-2011, 02:08 AM   #69
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Anoop. I just got it and am very busy so my reading of it will be by slow spurts. However Vern Gambetta did a review of it a few days back on his blog. You can also look through selected parts of it here or here
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Old 15-09-2011, 10:56 PM   #70
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Here is the chapter I pulled the quote from. Since they touched on fascia in there a bit I thought it might be of interest. Can be seen HERE
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:09 PM   #71
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Hello!

I've been reading the excellent article "Increasing Muscle Extensibility" on the subject I got from here and it all makes sense except for one thing:

If we take the sliding filament theory, the idea that when a muscle contracts, filaments forming the sarcomere are sliding together, so isn't stretching just the opposite? Initially the filaments are pulled away from each other, so thats how you get it lenghten, right? Surely, there are limits within a sarcomere and reaching the limits then you can start to speculate whether it is visoelastic deformity or growth of saromeres or whatnot, but you can get it lenghten physiologicly, can't you?


For example an article here: http://www.cmcrossroads.com/bradapp/...etching_2.html

I quote

"The stretching of a muscle fiber begins with the sarcomere, the basic unit of contraction in the muscle fiber. As the sarcomere contracts, the area of overlap between the thick and thin myofilaments increases. As it stretches, this area of overlap decreases, allowing the muscle fiber to elongate. Once the muscle fiber is at its maximum resting length (all the sarcomeres are fully stretched), additional stretching places force on the surrounding connective tissue"

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