CT Cult thinking in manual therapy

[vancouverRMT]

Diane asked me to start a discussion thread for these papers.
I would like to add this wiki on group think as well.

If a better way to provide care was published, would you change what you do?

It should be borne in mind that no one system of manual therapy has all the answers and that the successful management of many clinical problems requires well-developed clinical reasoning, often drawing on a number of manual therapy approaches.

[Diane]

I think:
1. manual therapy cults are numerous, and not about to disappear any time soon.
2. they were probably necessary for maintaining primate social grooming of the wordless sort, in order to perpetuate it within a species that has evolved to be interested, mainly or perhaps only, symbolic representations, or conceptualizations, not processes; i.e., nouns more than verbs, things more than actions.
3. Individuals in said species do not even feel their own "bodies" particularly well anymore. Sensorium is a paper about a room of some kind that enhances interoception. It makes people feel their own physicality better; improvement was reported in contentment, relaxation, happiness, and inner harmony, and something called "widening in their body consciousness". Hmmn. Manual therapies likely do something similar. Or should. No matter what they're called.

The "cult" aspects of the manual therapies are like different colours of capsules. The content, the part that lives on and replicates itself, the urge to help by making boundaried physical contact with others (the human primate social grooming instinct, I guess you could say), is the unstoppable drive that makes people default over and over and over again to cultish (culturally driven) attempts to explain what the capsules are about, when instead, maybe they should try to discuss the content.

[NateM]

These cult-like tendencies toward manual therapy courses are probably just a part of human nature.

Coming from a strength and fitness background, we need to look no further than the differing "camps". From "functional" training to "strength rules all", to "Olympic weightlifting is best" or "everyone gets a bodybuilding routine", etc.

It seems that as a species, we're drawn toward grouping ourselves (as Diane mentioned). It seems easier to break into "us" vs. "them" thinking, especially when we believe that our group is the one that is aware of the answers.

So having mentioned that, what say we make up some SomaSimpler t-shirts to raise money for the site? This way we can confidently strut through the clinic knowing we're a group of Dead Men/Women, and our "cult" status can be proudly brandished for others to see.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by NateM

These cult-like tendencies toward manual therapy courses are probably just a part of human nature.

Coming from a strength and fitness background, we need to look no further than the differing "camps". From "functional" training to "strength rules all", to "Olympic weightlifting is best" or "everyone gets a bodybuilding routine", etc.

It seems that as a species, we're drawn toward grouping ourselves (as Diane mentioned). It seems easier to break into "us" vs. "them" thinking, especially when we believe that our group is the one that is aware of the answers.

So having mentioned that, what say we make up some SomaSimpler t-shirts to raise money for the site? This way we can confidently strut through the clinic knowing we're a group of Dead Men/Women, and our "cult" status can be proudly brandished for others to see.

Not a bad idea!
Straight donation is quicker and cheaper right now, but I really like the idea of "dead" SS tee-shirts at some point.

[zimney3pt]

This way we can confidently strut through the clinic knowing we're a group of Dead Men/Women, and our "cult" status can be proudly brandished for others to see.

Could play off the Jeff Foxworthy "You might be red neck...."

For example: "If you realize the interaction with your patient probably does more than the operation of your technique...You might be a dead man."

[amacs]

Originally Posted by zimney3pt

Could play off the Jeff Foxworthy "You might be red neck...."

For example: "If you realize the interaction with your patient probably does more than the operation of your technique...You might be a dead man."

nice one Kory

ANdy

[NateM]

I was serious about the t-shirts. I think they might sell well, and posting the website on the shirt might get a little exposur

[vancouverRMT]

I have been reading this book and am about half way there. A very thought provoking read. I have no doubt that SS is a cult and I think that is a good thing.

[Diane]

I found a slideshow about that, Michael..

[Milehigh]

I find this slideshow disturbing: filling the needs of our own lack of attention and emotional connections with others with manufactured, corporate identities seems disturbing in the least. The deterministic attitude that it is a given that this would happen frightens me as much as it informs me.

I got to think a many "great" physio corporations have read such garbage. In fact, the way I see it many of these corporations use standardize the outcome of their product..ahem...service of PT. For example, companies that advertise manual therapist specialists, trained in this that or the other exclusive school. I can think of more than one phsyio syndicate in the NW whom uses a manual school based out of the NW (USA) for such standardization and quality control.

While they preach euphemisms of continuing education, advanced skill, and being better PTs provided you go through the course work. I remember that this one school in the NW, many people were amazed that when they reached the lvl 4, they actually unlearned everything from levels 1-3--I was shocked. This reminds me of The Church of Scientology, see Going Clear.

This stuff infuriates me, pure mind control. I refuse to buy into the corporate America's thinking that this cult branding is somehow good for us.

[Jason Silvernail]

Well, if this sort of tribalism is a part of human nature, why is being associated with a "corporation" worse than a "government" or "team"? Do you likewise have such a strong reaction to team loyalty or patriotism? Why or why not?

[ste5e]

Are we a cult?
"You can be weird together and basically feel weird no more." Strikes a chord. And that we are to a greater or lesser extent outcasts - 'Dead men'. That chimes. Openess - we have that as long as posters are willing to argue their corner. Being a part here does "give back to the customers for their passion and devotion". I feel it is the one place where the stuff that gets my attention is sometimes appreciated by others - so again yes. But I do not think SS is a cult as described in the presentation. Follow the money. Who is getting rich on this? No-one. Folk here actively seek not to monetize just to spread the knowledge and hope that we hit critical mass, that when someone in a manual profession is ready to ask the question they can find the answer here. So for me - not a cult, just a meeting of minds.
Kind thoughts,
Steve

[Bas Asselbergs]

Jason, I do have the same feelings with regards to patriotism or team-fandom.
Maybe because I have not put down any roots in any country until I was 10, then left when I was 31.
I am proud to be Canadian, but I know that as humans we are not much different than others. And we tend NOT to be fanatically patriotic - generally we are self-depreciating.

I do have trouble with "tribes" or "cults" or even belonging to a "church" (likely because I am a recovering Catholic).

[ts.vassilev]

Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail

Well, if this sort of tribalism is a part of human nature, why is being associated with a "corporation" worse than a "government" or "team"? Do you likewise have such a strong reaction to team loyalty or patriotism? Why or why not?

Although my ID says that I'm a citizen of a certain country, I consider myself a citizen of the world. They asked me recently for "the letters I want after my name" on a certificate. I said that I just want my name on it - no letters, no abbreviations.

Do I consider SS a cult?
Not really. I consider it a place where I meet people. Like refusing to belittle people to their diagnosis, I refuse to belittle people to the internet forum that they visit. Each one here is unique, even if his thinking is very similar to that of others.
SomaSimple is like the name of my favorite pub.

[nari]

For me, the word "cult" has quite evil connotations, but it can be interpreted as a closet of like minds, with the doors open to possible scrutiny, I guess.

I am not particularly patriotic, and sometimes I see our national day as an excuse for people to get drunk and have an brain-addled time. It doesn't seem to be a patriotic display. just an excuse for a rage.

I agree with Steve - no-one is getting rich by being in SS or using devious means to gain members. So I don't see SS as a cult.

Nari

[Milehigh]

Well, if this sort of tribalism is a part of human nature, why is being associated with a "corporation" worse than a "government" or "team"? Do you likewise have such a strong reaction to team loyalty or patriotism? Why or why not?

It is natural for humans to form groups. Explotation of these tendencies by corporations to market to our fears, create needs that are unnecessary, and make us feel like being part of their collective is better than forming real relationships with other people is a value I can't subscribe to promoting. I don't think corporations value you anymore than the $$ you represent; so that's how that's how that relationship works. As far as goverment, it is representive of the people. It is ours and functions as ours. The specific bottom line of a goverment is not to provide returns for shareholders but provide a place where citizens can take part in a civil discourse--whether it happens or not all the time is another question.

I have always been loyal to the team up until the point the team membership was not in my best interest. I had no reservations in quitting. Regarding patriotism, I believe in the goodness of people, their ability to change, liberty, equality, and rationale thought. Goverments that provide protection (inside of and outside of their own borders) for those things I can stand behind. I am not sure how I think and feel about a great many things that are decided in this country but I stand by our ability to figure it out of our the long term.

Sorry if this does not to much sense but I am trying to jam this out on my lunch break.

Eric

[Diane]

I'm giving this whole notion a bit of a think.
I guess I'm trying to look at the word "cult" separate from the usual negative connotations. And the word "brand".

I have the same cringe toward the word "brand" as I do "cult", actually. Yet, in PT, the word "brand" is tossed around all the time as a perfectly innocuous word, that supposedly means something good.

From the slide show:
What are Cult Brands?

• Brands are spheres of influence
• the most magnetic brands win in the marketplace (I think they must mean "attractive")
• are repeatedly chosen over the competition

Cult Brands:

• a special class of magnetic brand
• command super-high customer loyalty
• devotees/evangelical/followers (OK, these are words that nauseate me..)

Then the visually eye-catchy logos. Yes, SomaSimple has a text logo on a sandy coloured background. Pretty simple. Not very flashy.

Then a difference drawn between destructive cults and benign cults.
Destructive ones:
hurt, harm, manipulate, brainwash
don't care about well-being of members

Benign cults:

• help fill the emotional needs and wants in positive way (whatever that means... I.e., if people "want" and/or "need" to feel punished, or their personhood obliterated, would they or wouldn't they willingly flock to destructive cults? I think this could be argued for a long time.)
• mutually beneficial relationship
• real sense of satisfaction/accomplishment/belonging/enlightenment from relationship

Features of members:

• above average intelligence
• open/honest
• altruist/able to think abstractly
• want to help and change things
• improve lives

Why do I feel like this slideshow is trying to flatter in order to gain acceptance for its proposals?

We all need to belong to a group

• life's a jungle out there
• we need security/belonging/social interaction (yeah yeah, we evolved that way, needing a troop - we're still primates)
• We're all like-minded individuals who just happen to sell stuff like products and services. (hmmnn..)

Maslow's needs hierarchy
Cult branders (the good guys, lest we forget) want to hang out at the top of the hierarchy.
They follow 7 golden (no less) rules:

1. addicted to communication
2. daring and determined
3. fun-loving
4. look after the congregation (more allergic reaction from moi)
5. reward passion and devotion, stay humble, support development
6. embrace anyone who's interested
7. draw power from enemies while promoting personal freedom, invent arch-enemy i.e., anything/one conflicting with the goals of the cult brander(s)

Hmmnn.. there is much in there to be wary of. Besides, it is such an American-only America-first perspective: couched in religious metaphor, blatantly about selling, with religion and power and archenemy and whatnot all conflated together.

OK, here's what I think.
While there are some nice things in there, there are so many objectionable bits to the whole package that I'm not going to buy "Cult Brand" as a conceptual model for SomaSimple.

I think SomaSimple does way better as a rag tag band of constantly evolving individuals who are like-minded enough about the important things that they can get along in spite of glaringly obvious differences, and no big adherence to any particular set of ideas, just a determination to clear away conceptual clutter and create a bit more space to move. Any way anyone wants. Toward or away. And we don't sell anything. Although we do ask people who come here to donate something toward board upkeep.

[Milehigh]

Soma simple: an open-sourced science based community is what I prefer. Some may view us as a cult. I do not; it is a lot of people, smart people, hashing out ideas.

As mentioned above, I disagree the presumtion of benign cults.

[Barrett Dorko]

I'm with Nari on this. I equate "cult" with "control," and bridle at anything like that.

However, I must take issue with her contention that an Australian needs a reason to get drunk (ha,ha).

[Curious One]

Originally Posted by NateM

I was serious about the t-shirts. I think they might sell well, and posting the website on the shirt might get a little exposur

If you are looking for T-Shirts, you can make them on Zazzle.

[nari]

However, I must take issue with her contention that an Australian needs a reason to get drunk (ha,ha).

Very funny... but true. I don't know about other countries but possibly some imbibe as much as we do.

Nari

[Alice Sanvito]

A couple of ways I distinguish cults from other kinds of associations:

In cults there are strong authority figures that usually do not change. In other kinds of groups, positions of authority are more often flexible, shared, rotated around.

In cults, one is not allowed to question or think independently. Other kinds of groups tolerate questioning to varying degrees, some more than others.


Using those criteria, I don't consider SoS a cult, though I'm aware that some outside of it look at it that way. My experience is that those who have made that accusation either didn't know what they were talking about or had something to lose by science-minded thinking i.e. were highly invested in a modality that didn't stand up to scrutiny.

The currency here is critical thinking. I appreciate that. I feel quite free to harbor my own doubts when I have them, to ask questions. This is one of the few places where I *do* feel completely free to ask questions. The focus is on information, not dogma. If there is a dogma, it is neurocentrism. However, if someone wants to show how the nervous system is *not* in control when it comes to pain, can do it in a way that makes sense, then by all means let them do it. A lot of people try and so far they have all failed miserably. That's how I came to be a convert to neurocentrism, seeing the complete lack of any science supporting other explanations.