SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

View Poll Results: Were you taught energy medicine (not just techniques) or MFR in PT school?
Yes 14 25.93%
No 40 74.07%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

Post New Thread  Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21-01-2008, 04:50 PM   #1
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default Energy medicine/MFR poll

I'm curious if you were taught myofascial release, reiki, or other energy therapy (or qi) techniques as part of your formal education. If you were taught acupuncture only answer yes if it was taught under the idea of changing qi. Hopefully my attempt at posting a yes/no poll will work. Please feel free to write about what you were taught if you're willing.

For example, did anyone question what was being taught and how was the criticism handled?
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

Last edited by Jon Newman; 21-01-2008 at 04:53 PM.
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 07:30 PM   #2
chad
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: marlton,NJ
Age: 39
Posts: 30
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Hope it is ok to answer this I have been out of school for 7 yrs. We were taught MFR in school, I graduated in 2000, from a masters program in new jersey. I would have to say that at the time i was a passive learner and thought that alot of what my professors were teaching to be true. But it didn't take too long being out in the real world with real patients that alot of what was being taught had very little evidence behind it. We were exposed to reiki as well, but did not go into alot of depth on it. The MFR we were taught included GI mobilization, focused alot on the trigger points as fibrous bands of fascia ect. I never learned a thing about modern pain physiology but spent alot of wasted time on these other topics.
chad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 07:34 PM   #3
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,839
Thanks: 2,642
Thanked 5,399 Times in 2,462 Posts
Default

Wow!

I'd always assumed schools were safe. Well, safer than the "real world" of CE marketing. I had no idea. Really.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 07:45 PM   #4
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Hi Chad,

I've amended the title to "allow" more people to participate. No one needs to mention their school if they don't want to nor do they need to mention their profession if they don't want to.

Actually, if you're just answering the poll, you don't need to mention anything.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 08:15 PM   #5
Kim LeMoon
SomaSimpler
 
Kim LeMoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
Age: 48
Posts: 111
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Jon, I didn't answer the poll because you are looking at what is taught in PT school, not massage school. I'll add my 2cents here instead. No energy medicine was taught in the massage school I attended. We learned something called MFR, but not the JB style. It only consisted of skin stretching, without any hullaballoo about energy. It was misnamed, but the technique was never credited with the ability to retrieve memories or any such nonsense. The biggest bit of nonsense we were taught was reflexology. I remember resenting having to study and take an exam on something that was so ridiculous.
Kim LeMoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 08:28 PM   #6
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Hi Kim,

I'm not limiting the question specifically to PT. If you earned a degree and energy work was part of it, I'm interested.

Oh yes, the MFR versus the JB MFR. Can you expand on the differences? Does it come down to what is released (memory versus fascia only)? Aren't both built on an unsustainable model?

I should add, if it isn't obvious, this is for idle curiosity. It would be more informative if those who have had this type of thing as part of their formal education made some comments like Chad.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

Last edited by Jon Newman; 21-01-2008 at 08:34 PM.
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 09:06 PM   #7
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,287
Thanks: 1,615
Thanked 1,121 Times in 505 Posts
Default

Had three hours of "Colour therapy" - little patches of "naturally dyed, unbleached cotton" (VERY important!) to place over selected acupuncture points - this would draw light energy and stimulate theflow of chi through the channels. To be fair to the profs, the teacher was invited by a student group, and was granted a credit for the course, and the course content was resoundingly slammed by the profs. I did not finish the 6 hours......did not get the credit (maybe my first instinctive awakening of the BS-meter).
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 09:48 PM   #8
wjrein
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Appleton, Wisconsin
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I graduated 3 years ago from a Masters program and was taught in one short 90 minute lecture and lab about eastern medicine (meridians, energy streams, ying/yang, etc). Tai Chi and yoga was included in this session. In the "massage unit" of our modalities course, which lasted 2 weeks we were introduced to myofascial release very briefly (10-15 minutes). I mostly remember the technique and not the rationale behind it.
wjrein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 10:24 PM   #9
Kim LeMoon
SomaSimpler
 
Kim LeMoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
Age: 48
Posts: 111
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

I can't compare the MFR I was taught to the JB method, as I haven't studied with JB. MFR in school had no theory attached. It was taught as a type of tissue stretching and the only thing I can remember was that the instructors said how useful this could be for 'really tight tissue'. If the subject was 'bound down', then MFR was suggested as a kind of warm-up, prior to doing Neuromuscular Therapy (which gets into a whole other pet peeve topic of mine). My school prided themselves on having tougher academic requirements than the competition. They did a pretty good job of that, considering all of the possible nonsense that might have been taught.
Kim LeMoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 10:39 PM   #10
BB
Arbiter
 
BB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 3,556
Thanks: 312
Thanked 264 Times in 112 Posts
Default

Jon,

I had some exposure to MFR in school. One professor had, I believe, done some work with Barnes. He prefaced everything with, "this guy says" and "it is highly controversial." He went on to tell of emotional expressions of those being unwound.

Also, another professor came in to give us a one day lecture on MFR of which I only remember the cross hand technique and that I walked out thinking "what a bunch of BS!" and that she was weird.

This contributed to a strong viceral response whenever I encountered talk of skin deep treatments early on similar to that which is encountered in some of the discussions on EIM.
__________________
Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS
Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt


My facebook page
My youtube channel Twitter

Neurotonics: a PT team blog
Somasimple on twitter
Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page
BB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 10:44 PM   #11
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,839
Thanks: 2,642
Thanked 5,399 Times in 2,462 Posts
Default

Now that Jon removed the requirements of having had to have graduated school only 5 years ago, I voted. No, back in the (PreCambrian) days I graduated, we were not introduced to anything "energy". It was all about "softening" muscles by massaging into them. We learned "lymph flow" patterns which I can barely remember now.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 11:11 PM   #12
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,232
Thanks: 1,417
Thanked 462 Times in 327 Posts
Default

As I graduated in Archaean times (pre-preCambrian), there was not the slightest mention of energy; massage was taught strictly along the lines of increasing lymph and blood flow.
There was a vague mention of increasing muscle tone but not emphasised. Even PNF was taught along the lines of patterning for brain changes, but nothing outside of muscle and joint movement to achieve this.
In fact, I recall several lecturers who went on to do great things in global dissemination of (neuro)muscular methods; there was emphasis always on being kind to the patient. This aspect was lost somewhere along the line, as we began to brutalise tissue and joints.

However, passive joint mobilisation hadn't been invented as Maitland was still considering Still's work; electrotherapy ruled; hot packs had not been invented; knowledge of the brain was something considered as only useful for stroke and head injury management.

Some things haven't changed.

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2008, 11:29 PM   #13
Line M
Soma learner
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NL
Posts: 82
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Jon, nice this poll thing.
About 20 years ago we had lessons of meridian massage included in our massage curriculum of the PT education and the colour meridian mentioned above does come to my mind again. These are lost in practice.
__________________
i keep wondering.......................

Last edited by Line M; 21-01-2008 at 11:40 PM.
Line M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 02:22 AM   #14
Sarah
SomaSimpler
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Age: 39
Posts: 126
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Kim,

I was just introduced to the concept of a neuromuscular therapist cerified in the St. John method. What is this exactly? What is your take on it?

Jon,
We did have one lecture in PT school about energy healing. I skipped that one, but I heard that the woman was dangling crystals over people and other such things. As a student, I helped out with some of the continuing ed classes that were held at my school, and I did get to sit in on the MFR class for free. It was interesting. The instructor was a bit "weird" and I was the last one to be treated in class for demonstration of a technique. She did a sacral float technique where she basically just laid her hand on my sacrum for about 5 minutes. I felt all kinds of movement and strange sensations and felt a lot better (less back and hip pain) afterward for about two days. That got me thinking, and after a while I decided that it had to have something to do with the nerves in that area to have that kind of effect. I didn't believe that my sacrum started moving and floating around. But the immediate postural effects (I was no longer standing with one iliac crest higher than the other) and the pain relief was very compelling. That was probably my first foray into thinking neurologically instead of biomechanically. Strange, or perhaps ironic that it occurred at a MFR course!

Last edited by Sarah; 22-01-2008 at 02:22 AM. Reason: typos
Sarah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 04:59 AM   #15
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Thanks to those participating. I thought of some follow up questions and I'll put them out there in case anyone wants to share.

Regarding these techniques (whichever techniques pertain to your situation):

1.) Was there some aspect of presentation or handling that remained valuable despite the erroneous explanation?

2.) Did the erroneous explanation turn people off to the techniques such that the technique never made if off the sale table?

3.) For those finding the techniques valuable but who have shed the erroneous explanation, how did you shed the explanation and did that change anything in terms of presentation or outcome? What techniques do you use? Does it still help to conceptualize the erroneous explanation?
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

Last edited by Jon Newman; 22-01-2008 at 05:01 AM.
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 06:14 AM   #16
Jason Silvernail
Clinician and Researcher
 
Jason Silvernail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: El Paso, TX
Age: 40
Posts: 4,244
Thanks: 318
Thanked 888 Times in 268 Posts
Default

I graduated with my Master's in PT in 1997.
At that point, MFR was all the rage in the PT world at the time. One of my primary instructors in PT school was clearly dismayed at this, and in our Orthopedic PT track he went into detail about exactly why MFR didn't make sense and why no one should be doing it. He focused on the untenability of the supposed crystalline structure of fascia that can be changed with prolonged pressure - the recovered memories and crap like that never came up in his debunking. Not that he needed that to make a convincing case. He did a great job of inoculating us against the ridiculous ideas in many alternative practices. My professors are one reason I chose to go back to my alma mater for my DPT. I got that same professor as I did my final case report on ideomotor movement therapy. He had heard of Barrett and like many people, he had placed him in the "alternative" camp - easy to do if you don't actually read what Barrett has written. In any case, he was very skeptical and very hard on me (which I think is good), but in the end was very fair about the project.

After reading about some PT professors who actually teach MFR in their schools and have embraced this alterno-garbage completely, I'm happier and happier about my education.
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
Jason Silvernail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 06:30 AM   #17
BB
Arbiter
 
BB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 3,556
Thanks: 312
Thanked 264 Times in 112 Posts
Default

I also just remembered that I went to the APTA student conclave where I got to hear Jules Rothstein call it myofascist release. I thought that was pretty funny.
__________________
Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS
Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt


My facebook page
My youtube channel Twitter

Neurotonics: a PT team blog
Somasimple on twitter
Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page
BB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 06:33 AM   #18
Jason Silvernail
Clinician and Researcher
 
Jason Silvernail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: El Paso, TX
Age: 40
Posts: 4,244
Thanks: 318
Thanked 888 Times in 268 Posts
Default

That's great, Cory.
Nice to see honest professional censure for this ridiculous crap from our leaders.
So much more work to do - I wish Dr Rothstein was still around...
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
Jason Silvernail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 06:40 AM   #19
BB
Arbiter
 
BB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 3,556
Thanks: 312
Thanked 264 Times in 112 Posts
Default

Yeah, me too. I miss his brilliant monthly editorials.
__________________
Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS
Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt


My facebook page
My youtube channel Twitter

Neurotonics: a PT team blog
Somasimple on twitter
Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page
BB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 12:59 PM   #20
Kim LeMoon
SomaSimpler
 
Kim LeMoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
Age: 48
Posts: 111
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah View Post
Kim, I was just introduced to the concept of a neuromuscular therapist cerified in the St. John method. What is this exactly? What is your take on it?
Hi Sarah,

I've started a new thread to answer your question.

Cheers,
Kim
Kim LeMoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 02:14 PM   #21
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,313
Thanks: 1,347
Thanked 2,672 Times in 1,501 Posts
Default

I wasn't taught any of this while in school, but I will admit I slept through a lecture occasionally. Well, okay, I did that all the time.

The world is full of people desperate for relief, desperate to be seen as "healers," desperate to possess secret, ancient, esoteric and mysterious knowledge that sets them apart and desperate to find someone they can love and imagines/feels loves them in return. Knowing this, there are those perfectly willing to take advantage. This is the root of many schools of therapy that don't have to bother with making any sense.

It takes a special kind of person to act as the head of such a school, don't you think? Ordinarily they become difficult to speak to directly and surround themselves with an army of "believers." This is Marvel's curtain (think Wizard of Oz), so to speak, only not quite as flimsy.

This desperation and con artistry is a powerful combination and we shouldn't be surprised when it infiltrates our formal education. In the end (with small exceptions noted here by Jason, for example), these approaches manage this by manipulating the culture. They know that religious conviction gets a free pass when it comes to questioning its rational nature so they evoke some of the same language and enjoy the same silence from those fearful of violating this taboo.

I've read that long ago magicians (charlatans, every one) realized that there was more money to be made if they evoked the local religion. Simultaneously, proponents of religion realized that there was more money to be made if they appeared magical.

Sound familiar?
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com

Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 22-01-2008 at 02:18 PM.
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 05:06 PM   #22
Julie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 45
Posts: 132
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I graduated 15 years ago, and no, none of this was taught. Massage was for relaxation and blood and lymph flow, if I recall. There was not a lot of emphasis on it. I remember one ortho prof talking informally about having gone to a course on CST, and what they could allegedly feel, and we all thought it was crazy and weird and that was about it. We did have a good long lab course on palpation that was valuable -- helped us find all sorts of landmarks with soft hands. Well, that was the goal, anyway. At the beginning of the semester, we were pretty bruised up! Practice, practice...
Julie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2008, 05:35 PM   #23
christophb
Arbiter
 
christophb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Age: 40
Posts: 686
Thanks: 8
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Nothing like this was taught in my program. I did teach an "alternative" movement class (aka t'ai chi) about 4-5 years ago for my old university. I steered clear of energetic concepts, though I wish I could go back and teach the class differently in light of all I have learned here since that time.
__________________
Christopher Bryhan

"You are more likely to learn something by finding surprises in your own behavior then by hearing surprising facts about people in general"
Daniel Kahneman - Thinking Fast and Slow
christophb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 02:54 AM   #24
gilbert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 305
Thanks: 107
Thanked 71 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Jon

I answered 'no' because we only had a brief mention of acupuncture points and meridians etc during our massage class. In speaking about "energy" the prof made it clear that she didn't really believe those mechanisms.

-Gilbert
gilbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 03:30 AM   #25
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Perfect Gilbert. The poll is obviously a conversation point/straw poll sort of thing but I was specifically interested in whether the construct of energy medicine was being taught. As you rightly point out, identical techniques may be presented with either "energy medicine" underpinnings or with neurophysiological underpinnings. Of course, one can argue about the value of the technique regardless of its underpinnings.

I'm curious how non-energy medicine meridians and acupuncture points were taught though. It sounds like they presented the energy medicine viewpoint while simultaneously saying "Anyway I don't believe in it. I think it's all a bunch of bullshit myself" ala Jim Morrison.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

Last edited by Jon Newman; 01-05-2008 at 03:57 AM.
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 03:55 AM   #26
gilbert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 305
Thanks: 107
Thanked 71 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Jon

That's exactly how it was taught, although the exact words may have been "no one knows how (or if) this works, but here it is anyway"

-Gilbert
gilbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 08:27 AM   #27
JasonE
Senior Member
 
JasonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN, USA
Posts: 276
Thanks: 93
Thanked 52 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Not a PT, so I didn't vote in the poll. Just thought some of ya'll might find this of interest.

I attended one of the country's more science-based massage therapy programs: http://www.nwhealth.edu/edprogr/mass.html

Our education was pretty solidly based on anatomy and physiology, with straightforward, mundane explanations for what was taught. We spent a lot of hours in cadaver lab, and only about 6-8 hours on basic reflexology, which was the only part of our program based on TCM concepts. We learned some basic techniques for loosening the superficial fascia before working deeper, but not nearly enough to be considered any form of MFR. It was just part of the bigger picture.

The program started with a foundation of basic Swedish massage techniques and simple routines, basic palpation and assessment skills, body mechanics, and so forth. After that, the focus shifted to focus primarily on specific therapeutic techniques based on NMT. Travell and Simons was the prevailing theory, but more emphasis was placed upon assessment, palpatory, and practical technique application than upon theory. Simplified pathology for recognizing conditions and contraindications for massage therapy was also covered.

Here and there speakers presented on various topics for 1-3 hours, sometimes on health conditions, sometimes on modalities. We had aromatherapists, a physician that used hydrotherapy in his practice, an energy healer, and people suffering from a wide variety of serious health problems come in at various times. (I wasn't very kind to the energy healer, demanding a rational explanation for what she was claiming to do... ticked off an instructor and some classmates too, but it's water under the bridge now.)

It was clear that some instructors were very into the energy concepts, others into MFR, one was a Structural Integration/Rolfing practitioner, etc. To their credit, none required students to buy into any particular perspective, though tolerance WAS strongly encouraged. Challenges to prevailing theories (yes, there were some challengers in my class) were often met with, "You could be right, but for now this is what we are working with."

In general, I consider myself lucky, as things might have been very different. I graduated with a reasonably science-oriented basis for assessing and treating clients, and have been able to pursue reasonably science-oriented continuing ed since then. My practice has flourished in part due to referrals from MDs, PTs, DCs, and other health pros in the area that have become acquainted with my approach.
JasonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 02:04 AM   #28
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,943
Thanks: 168
Thanked 197 Times in 87 Posts
Default no, not taught that in school

But recently it has become trendy in my clinic.
Not the emo stuff put more the mechanical streching stuff to lenghten tissu and acquire a more normal biomech. Haven't taken any class so far either

Fred
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2008, 11:04 AM   #29
estherderu
SomaSimpler
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: spain
Age: 63
Posts: 159
Thanks: 10
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default meridian-colour therapy

dear everybody,
I answeren no... and thats true... nothing in our PT education about energy or chi

In Holland in the 70´s bindegewebsmassage ( German method mentioned before) was part of the normal curriculum to become a PT and it still is.

Postgraduate studies were and are possible to expand your knowledge and practical expertise. After following 2 BGM courses, you are accepted for the Meridiaantherapy (colour) courses if you so wish ( Germany). Why this connection? The MCT( my abbr.) uses the palpation techniques and even sometimes the BGM techniques.
To learn more about this "method" using pieces of naturally coloured silk, go to
http://www.meridiaankleurentherapie.nl/ its in Dutch German and English.

I followed the first 3 courses ( 70´s) and used this method for years.
BUT it is very time-consuming and not paid for by the Health Insurance Companies.
As I have posted before, I discovered that the knowledge of the meridiaans, their locations and th BGM techniques did give me good assistive treatment possibilities.
Hence the BGMrevised I have been talking about.

The meridiaantherapy and its claims were and are well accepted in Germany, a country with a love and general acceptance of alternative medicines.
Despite various efforts of the people concerned, the Dutch KNGF - Society of PT´s never accepted it as a specialisation or allowed the MCT group to become an official subgroup. The Dutch are very much into EBM. But everybody knows and (I do not know how many) use BGM.

Hope this sheds some light on the meridiaan color topic.....
You will hear from me concerning the revised BGM version.... but am currently busy collecting information. I need more time so have patience please

Esther
estherderu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2008, 01:51 PM   #30
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,287
Thanks: 1,615
Thanked 1,121 Times in 505 Posts
Default

Esther, as you can see from my posts in the past - I was dutch trained, but mainly by manually oriented PTs (West-Brabant Academy in Breda); I was very ortho-oriented. I had brief exposure to the meridian colour approach, and a lot of exposure to the BGM techniques. The colour therapy never got my attention (I thought and think it is bogus), and the BGM seems to be nothing but strong cutaneous and subcutaneous manual techniques. Despite the very elegant explanations, there is not a shred of evidence connecting the technique with the connective tissues.

In Germany, there is a great regard for many things alternative in medicine: homeopathy is BIG there (and in Switserland), but so far, no evidence has shown up to support it; rather, most evidence indicates it is an excellent placebo, and that the neurophysiology of the patient does all the work, regardless of what is in the concoctions.

With all the information on this great resource site (Bernard, merci encore!), one can find enough explanations of the effectiveness of all techniques through the perceptual, neurophysiological, and psychological aspects of humans. And that information shows that esoteric new concepts of alternate energy, or new applications of known energy, are really not necessary or ...factual.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2008, 02:14 PM   #31
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,943
Thanks: 168
Thanked 197 Times in 87 Posts
Default

Bas
Quote:
With all the information on this great resource site (Bernard, merci encore!), one can find enough explanations of the effectiveness of all techniques through the perceptual, neurophysiological, and psychological aspects of humans. And that information shows that esoteric new concepts of alternate energy, or new applications of known energy, are really not necessary or ...factual.
Nicely put
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 04:56 AM   #32
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,287
Thanks: 1,615
Thanked 1,121 Times in 505 Posts
Default

Merci.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 12:40 PM   #33
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,943
Thanks: 168
Thanked 197 Times in 87 Posts
Default

That's funny, I replied this 3 1/2 years ago and for some reason it came out yesterday in the new post section!?
__________________
Frédéric Wellens, pht
«We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.»
«
Those who cannot understand how to put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of debate.
»
Friedrich Nietzsche
www.physioaxis.ca
chroniquesdedouleur blog
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 12:52 PM   #34
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,287
Thanks: 1,615
Thanked 1,121 Times in 505 Posts
Default

I wondered....if you'd been digging through old threads.
Anyway; I'd never thanked you, so there's one more completed and put to rest.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 06:52 PM   #35
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
Default

What happens is that when someone takes the poll/votes the thread gets bumped even if no one posted anything.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 09:38 PM   #36
amacs
A bear of little brain
 
amacs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,675
Thanks: 372
Thanked 436 Times in 224 Posts
Default

Ah, thank you Jon, I was wondering


regards

ANdy
__________________
"Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne
amacs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 10:00 PM   #37
CDano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 275
Thanks: 77
Thanked 52 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Well it serendipitously helped me find some information I was in need of. Glad it was brought back to life for a moment.
CDano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 01:50 AM   #38
Clark
Senior Member
 
Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Monroe, WA
Posts: 127
Thanks: 10
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

I got some MFR last semester during treatment of LBP and supposedly they are adding dry needling to our curriculum for next year. (We get the feeling that our faculty is very divided on this, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.)
__________________
Lauren Clark

'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 11:36 AM   #39
fildarin
SomaSimpler
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10
Thanks: 23
Thanked 21 Times in 3 Posts
Default

I'm Spanish, and graduated in 1997, so you my education was based in old principles. We were taught thinking once we finished our formation needed osteopathy to become better. I've been doing courses over the years and finally came to MFR (Pilat way). 3 years of formation based in principles of fascia memory, CST and visceral. I saw amazing things (unwinding is wonderful the first time you see it), but needed more, needed to know why, so began looking over the net and found you. My eyes were opened.

Now i use pain neurobiology (thanks to Arturo Goicoechea), but i also use the manual techniques i learnt in MFR. Why? Maybe the hipothesis is false, but i've found better results (CNS there?) than previous techniques i used. You can call it ideomotion, and of course the skin is there. Whatever, i need to learn more, read more, and wait for researchers to give us a better tool to work. In the meantime...

Thankyou all
fildarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 02:29 PM   #40
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,287
Thanks: 1,615
Thanked 1,121 Times in 505 Posts
Default

fildarin, welcome and congrats for making that leap.
The gentle manual handling that forms the basis for MFR-techniques is not an issue with anyone here I think. MFR's explanatory model is.
Your CNS, skin and ideomotion suggestions are the most plausible, likely and scientifically supportable notions to explain the effects of your handling.

By the way, I do not think that there will ever be any better tools than hands and brains in our profession......
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 04:49 PM   #41
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,839
Thanks: 2,642
Thanked 5,399 Times in 2,462 Posts
Default

Hi fildarin,
Would you copy and paste your post above into a new thread on our welcome forum?
And welcome!
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 05:00 PM   #42
bernard
Admin, Moderator...
 
bernard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: France
Age: 57
Posts: 12,226
Thanks: 588
Thanked 337 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Hi fildarin,
Would you copy and paste your post above into a new thread on our welcome forum?
And welcome!
Done.
__________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

bernard is offline   Reply With Quote
Post New Thread  Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Energy and the Healing Response bernard Decontamination Room 1 21-12-2004 04:44 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2013