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#1 | |
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Writer and Clinician
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This short blog post about how “fragile” is the evidence used to justify an entire industry within our communities is something everybody should read.
They won’t of course. This observation: Quote:
I see the manifestation of this “core strength” stuff in every evaluation form I have to fill out, and I assume that most therapists think it’s true. It isn’t. It doesn't even make sense. |
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#2 |
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Writer and Clinician
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Is it fair to say this:
Hodges demonstrated a relationship between the complaint of back pain and an inability to contract the multifidus and/or TA upon demand. He speculated that the restoration of muscle control would lead to a reduction in backache. I've some additional statements I will present in order to get them "cleaned up" and closer to what actually happened and when. Let's start with this one. Over to you. |
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#3 | |
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His speculation was proved wrong, fair enough, thats science. But to quote a recent article
Quote:
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Dave Nolan Last edited by Sheffphysio; 08-03-2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: error, |
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#4 | |
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Wondering if anyone can get a hold of this article. It was mentioned in the blogpost noted above.
Thanks!! Gary Quote:
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#5 |
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I know my wife and I were studying Fred DeVito and his wife Elisabeth Halfpapp's program at the Exhale Spa's in Manhattan. They experienced and probably still are experiencing great returns on the exercise model called "Core Fusion".The program is grueling and people flock to it for the challenge. The success owes no small part I imagine to the fact that participants think a strong core will save them from pain.
It also inspires Yoga Teachers like Jill Miller to create programs like Coregeous. I can't tell you how many people tell me they need to strengthen their core when they come to class. I ask them what they are going to do once they have it.
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Byron Selorme - Science Based Yoga Educator Shavasana Yoga Center "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman |
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#6 |
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Physiotherapist
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Great question, Byron.
I'll steal that one the next time I hear about the "strong core".
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We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley |
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#7 |
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It appears that the evidence suggests that these 'core' exercises as prescribed by Hodges are motor control exercises. There is evidence that perfroming motor control taks with a pressure biofeedback unit can improve motor ouptut from the brain which in turn can lead to a reduction in pain. However, nothing is being strengthened.
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#8 | |
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Member
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Quote:
I hear this type of thing often. Most recently last week from a middle-aged, tearful and diaphoretic woman, who, during the course of the 30 minutes I spoke to her mentioned at least ten times her "weak core" as the cause for her 15 year history of low back pain. At what point does the perpetuation of this misinformation, so commonly associated with our profession, become the anchor that pulls us down to the bottom? Or are the people here at SS the only ones who can see a way up to the surface?
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Jess Brown, PT, OCS |
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#9 |
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Neil Persons comments are worth reading and he has some thoughtul ideas regarding movement which I agree with .
I really liked this article and am intrigued as to how an idea can become an industry. Perhaps its the simplicity of the perceived solution to many people that attracts them. I never taught or got persuaded by the rhetoric of any of this muscle control/balance/instability/weakness and was heartened to read Eyal Ledermans take on it all . In busy urban stressed out cultures perhaps its the illusion of controlling ones body by avoiding really breathing that is attractive (since a lot of other areas of life seem out of control for many?) Diane I think mentioned Hodges interest in looking at the coretex now , pity not many others interested in migrating north for solutions. |
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#10 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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At least Hodges did us all the favour of examining "core" from every which way and ruling it out as being anything to do with pain one way or the other.
Likewise, his work with the motor cortex shows that it does something different with every rep. There is not even any correlation between which part of the motor cortex is doing what, let alone via which muscle. At least, that's what I got from hearing him talk about it, twice. Even when the movement is repeated any number of times. No one-to-one correlation of anything. He refutes his own hypotheses and publishes the results, so that's one good thing he does with mesoderm, I guess.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#11 |
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Writer and Clinician
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So, is it fair and accurate to say the following:
In (what year?), Hodges demonstrated a relationship between the complaint of back pain and an inability to contract the multifidus and/or TA upon demand. He speculated that the restoration of muscle control would lead to a reduction in backache. However, he now refutes his own hypotheses and publishes the results. Despite that, an entire industry built upon the premise that "core strength" will prevent and reduce back pain has been justified with Hodges' original research. |
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#12 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I think that's fair... although he doesn't/won't own the way a huge Movement of Transversus Abdominis materialized and followed him around - he doesn't want to (and, maybe he doesn't have to.. although I think it would be big of him to acknowledge it was himself who was the idol and sort of led the parade).
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#13 | |||
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life long learner, clinician, and instructor
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It was in 1996 the Conclusion in his article was:
Quote:
Quote:
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Kory Zimney, PT, DPT http://koryzimney.blogspot.com "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei |
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#14 | |
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A bear of little brain
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Quote:
regards ANdy
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"Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne |
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#15 |
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Writer and Clinician
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ANdy,
I think that this small finding of Hodges was conflated with pain and treatment already in place. It was a justification, and it remains so. This is confirmation bias on steroids. Since muscular strength has nothing to do with joint position, and, consequently, significant mechanical deformation of the nervous tissue, I never could see how strengthening was going to be related to recovery. Movement, on the other hand, might help if it's of the corrective sort. Given all the choreography involved, there's always luck to account for recovery. For some reason therapists don't like it when I say this. Then they don't like me. I can't help but think that in using the word "core" that there is a strong culturally based appeal to the whole idea. "He's rotten to the core." A powerful phrase. |
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#16 | |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
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Quote:
When I first began to learn and teach the core craze, it seemed a logical approach; if my back ached, the pain disappeared with TA contraction. However, it returned later. That was my lack of dedication. ![]() It reminds me of the pelvic floor mania of the 80s. Up to 300 contractions each day, 10 at a time every hour or so. Notices all over the fridge: PF!! Traffic lights? Do 20. It's a pity that ideomotion and DNM hasn't attracted $$$$. Oh, yes, they don't involve mesoderm, so little or no $$$$s. Nari |
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#17 |
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Senior Member
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It's ok Nari.
We have a clinic in Akron that is making us big $$$$ now.
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Byron Selorme - Science Based Yoga Educator Shavasana Yoga Center "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman |
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#18 | |
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A bear of little brain
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Quote:
regards ANdy
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"Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne |
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#19 |
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Pelvic floor is still very big in yoga, i think more so than the core in some circles.
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#20 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
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I agree a stable PF is important for males as well as females but overdoing the repetitions is what drove post-natal women to distraction and disappointment until they discovered all they were achieving was fatigue in the musculature; after that everyone settled on 3-4 reps several times a day.
As with core stuff, the maxim of "more is better" is still alive and well. Nari |
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