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Old 01-05-2009, 07:15 AM   #1
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Default Move Into Life (Anat Baniel)

Dear physios, how long?

Anat Baniel has just published her first book. She was one of the main Moshe Feldenkrais students.

See more at: http://www.anatbanielmethod.com/move...-the-book.html
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:30 PM   #2
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This looks like a really interesting book Flavio.
It would be great if someone who also had direct experience with Feldenkrais would review it and let people know what the book is like.
Barrett, would you consider taking something like that on? I know you took a class with him once upon a time. I can't think of anyone better to read the book and either recommend it or recommend people stay away from it.

I'd get it and write about it; however, I'm not buying anything these days in preparation for moving to a different province - I've chucked so many books already (ones I loved, ones that broke my heart to have to chuck) that I don't want to buy even a single book more right now.

But I'm very interested in this one.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:12 PM   #3
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Okay, I've ordered it.

The more years pass the rarer are those who got to watch and listen to Feldenkrais himself, and I count myself very fortunate to have spent four days doing that in 1980. It was an enormous room and filled with people who weren't therapists. I recall feeling with some urgency that the PT community needed to hear this and I still feel that way.

My contact with the Feldenkrais teachers since then has been quite disappointing with very few exceptions, and I have concluded that Moshe himself would be very unhappy with their current interpretation of his work. I am very hopeful that this book will prove an exception to that experience.

Of course, I'll invite the author here once the review is written and the discussion begun. I also promise to pass out if we hear anything in return.

I guess I'm not so hopeful about that.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:26 PM   #4
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Thank you. I look forward to hearing about it. I also look forward to the author coming here to discuss it with us - I hope she will consider doing so.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 03-05-2009, 07:01 PM   #5
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Barrett,

I'd be very curious to hear your concerns with the later interpretations of Feldenkrais' work. How have things been misinterpreted? What are they missing? Which teachers do you think provide a more accurate interpretation? Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:22 PM   #6
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I work with several therapists in pediatric settings around the country who are Anat Baniel-trained. Their storytelling emphasizes educating the nervous system through movement. For developmentally delayed children, this is a profound invitation to organize their neurology in direct dialogue with movement. I know that results from intervention are not considered relevant here unless the background neuroscience lines up, but I just wanted to put a good word in for the experience of this work, and the results for many children and families.

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Old 03-05-2009, 09:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
I know that results from intervention are not considered relevant here unless the background neuroscience lines up, but I just wanted to put a good word in for the experience of this work, and the results for many children and families.
Hi Cathy,
I suspect that the background neuroscience to this work lines up fairly well. Which is why I'm looking forward to the Baniel book review.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:17 PM   #8
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Todd,

Being the originator, Feldenkrais could hardly be faulted for being a purist and thus resistent to alterations in technique or theory, even if perfectly reasonable. I feel the same way about Simple Contact and doubt that will change.

I recall quite clearly that he would not tolerate anyone asking about treating a specific thing like "knee pain." He didn't treat joints or regions, he demonstrated repeatedly that the movement of someone's fifth digit, if done with enough thoughtfulness, could result in massive changes in range and comfort elsewhere in the body. I've never seen anyone else come close to doing this. I hope the author of this book displays this thinking somehow.

On many occasions I've had Feldenkrais Guild members in my classes. Not a single one has said a word to me since.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:37 AM   #9
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I know next to nothing about Feldenkrais or his work other than what I've read at these boards. But, it seems to me the mistake that was made was allowing his work to become the property of a "guild." There's something about making a treatment approach to help people in pain proprietary that rankles my sense of professionalism.

I have nothing against offering courses for a fee, but when it gets to the point that only a select few are "certified" to teach the material, then my red flags go up.

Perhaps Dr. Feldenkrais intended to protect the principles of the approach, not the careers of those who would become members of a guild with his name on it?
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Old 04-05-2009, 03:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
There's something about making a treatment approach to help people in pain proprietary that rankles my sense of professionalism.
I don't know anything about this work other than what I've read, took in a single weekend workshop, and heard from Barrett, but as far as I know Feldenkrais didn't discuss pain at all. Did he?

I recall hearing that he developed the entire movement system to rehab his own knee after some injury or surgery or something. Then he just kept going with it.

He also invented a whole self-defense system that looked a lot like judo, but wasn't. He was given an honorary black belt anyway, by a national judo organization. Apparently he was some kind of kinesthetic genius.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 04-05-2009, 05:51 AM   #11
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From Anat Baniel's website article "Exercise and Pain: The Purpose of Pain":

Quote:
We need to change our perception about pain and its importance to our body’s health and wholeness. Our ambition, while doing our best, leads us to damage ourselves. Pain is the signal that such damage is occurring. Pain provides us with the opportunity to detect mistakes in how we do the movements and change the way we exercise and perform the sport. It is of utter importance to change our beliefs about pain and our understanding as to how to achieve our goals.
I think Ms. Baniel has strayed quite far from the tenets of pain neuromatrix theory in this excerpt from the article. It's a profound mistake to assume that all pain signals tissue damage. If this were the case, the majority of my patients would never move, ever.

There's some good stuff there, but overall, I get an uneasy, "touchy-feely," "new age" sense from perusing her website.

And then there's the fundamental ignorance of pain neurobiology that has me scratching my head.
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Old 04-05-2009, 06:09 AM   #12
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She also suggests that imperfect posture over periods of time can result in tissue damage and pain. If one was forcibly made to sit in the lotus position for 6 hours, that might be the case.
Difficult to tell, but the actual course is probably OK. Certainly sounds a useful approach but the neurophysiology might need a repaint..?

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Old 04-05-2009, 07:02 AM   #13
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Sounds a bit questionable all right. I'll await Barrett's review.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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Old 04-05-2009, 01:08 PM   #14
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More from her site...

Quote:
"This cutting edge approach is based in the understanding of how the brain forms patterns of posture and movement – good and bad ones. It looks at all aspects of the person: body, mind, emotion and spirit and its relationship to pain. The Anat Baniel Method addresses an “invisible” element that is of the utmost importance in our ability to recover from neck and shoulder pain and prevent future pain: the QUALITY with which we move.
This Method is based on the breakthrough discovery that poorly organized movement and limiting beliefs are the most common causes of pain."


This of course doesn't mean her method is not effective. Also, when she uses the word "damage" I feel she is not always talking of tissue damage but damaged thinking and beliefs about pain.

It is also quite expenses, 20,000 dollars to become a certified practioner. Neverthe less, I have ordered her book. I would have liked to attend a book signing with a free demo, but scheduling conflicts prevent my attendence.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:46 PM   #15
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The website seems to be geared towards a general audience, not necessarily towards those with a pain science- or any science- background.

So, I'm also going to save my assessment of her method until we hear back from Barrett.

$20 grand! Wow!!
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:23 AM   #16
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There'll be a Feldenkrais person presenting their approach at the NATA conference in June of this year. Should be interesting. I don't know how it could benefit an athletic population though? At 20,000 a pop only big university trainers could afford it, and only if they talk their AD's into the paying for the scheme (ha).

While on the subject of training, have youb heard of this or used it? This is to be used for low back pain Pt. Obtain 4-8 plywood and glue a small wood (.25inch) strip down the spine of the 4-8. Ask low back pain Pt. to lay their back down on it and try to keep it centered off the floor. According to Ohio St. neural researchers it trains the reflex part of the brain developing propriception etc. Patients are trained to keep the low back in a more neutral position. To me, it seems like a safe wobble board for the back. No kicking up increased back pressure for the discs. Maybe do sliders off of it. Does this fit into our philosophy?

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Old 05-05-2009, 03:04 AM   #17
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Help me with the dimensions. What do you mean by a "4-8 plywood"? Also, the .25 inch strip down the "spine" of the plywood -I'm having trouble visualizing what your describing.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:35 AM   #18
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I'll take a punt: a 4x8 inch piece of ply with a 0.25 inch strip in the middle (glued?) so it imparts a rocking motion when laid upon supine. I guess the floor would need to be solid and not carpeted.
It doesn't sound too comfy - perhaps a piece of felt over the top of the ply?

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Old 05-05-2009, 11:07 AM   #19
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Or replace this with a pool noodle? Dollar store noodles are the firmest I've found.

Or a 5 to 8 cm diameter noodle filled with buckwheat hulls?

I loved working on them (dying bug.) Felt fantastic for my stiff back.

Until I realised I had torn 2 hernias in the abdominal wall.

It's not for those with weak connective tissue.

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Old 05-05-2009, 03:14 PM   #20
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WOW... I had not thought I would receive so much replies.

Now I'm interested in reading Barret's book review!

One thing: David Butler will be in Brazil next June... but unfortunatelly, I cannot assist his course. :-(

Second thing: lately, I have work a lot with Pilates, at my own Pilates Studio. I have the opportunity to teach things like pain physiology, biomechanic, psychoneuroimmunology, meditation, relaxation, phylosophy, spirituality, yoga, and things alike. My clients (no more called patients), like so much and I think they understand better my work line.

With best wishes for all,

Flávio.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:59 AM   #21
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Hi Nari and Mary;

Sure you can pad the plywood if you want.

The exercise is designed to limit muscular force. One would use as much force as in a rocking chair. Certainly not as much as the dying bug off a foam roller. Feet stay planted on the floor. One tries to stay balanced or centered on the plywood. The exercise is not a muscle conditoner but is used to develop the reflexes to keep the spine in neutral. If one can train the spine to stay neutral by developing these reflexes in the brain, the result is a more injury resistant athlete/patient. OSU guys have a machine with beeps that does about the same thing, but of course, that costs $$. So what do you think?
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:51 AM   #22
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Smith,

Supposing that I accept your premise that this device may "develop the reflexes to keep the spine in neutral," What's so great about the spine being in neutral?

Quote:
If one can train the spine to stay neutral by developing these reflexes in the brain, the result is a more injury resistant athlete/patient.
If you've got some research evidence to support this statement, I'd be interested in it.

I know of one biomechanical study which suggests that the maintenance of a neutral lumbar spine may in fact predispose the facet joints to damage under certain loads (in bold):

Quote:
Clin Biomech (Bristol, Avon). 2006 Mar;21(3):228-34. Epub 2005 Nov 16.

An exploratory study of loading and morphometric factors associated with specific
failure modes in fatigue testing of lumbar motion segments.

Gallagher S, Marras WS, Litsky AS, Burr D.

National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Mining Injury Prevention
Branch, P.O. Box 18070, Pittsburgh, PA 15236-0070, USA. sgallagher@cdc.gov

BACKGROUND: There is currently little information regarding factors associated
with specific modes of motion segment failure using a fatigue failure model.
METHODS: Thirty-six human lumbar motion segments were fatigue tested using spinal
compressive and shear loads that simulated lifting a 9 kg weight in three torso
flexion angles (0 degrees, 22.5 degrees, and 45 degrees). Twenty-five segments
failed via fatigue prior to the 10,000 cycle maximum. These specimens were
visually inspected and dissected so that the mode(s) of failure could be
determined. Failure modes included endplate fractures (classified into nine
varieties), vertebral body fractures, and/or zygapophysial joint disruption.
Logistic regression analyses were performed to determine whether certain
morphometric variables, amount of motion segment flexion, disk degeneration
scores, and/or loading characteristics were associated with the occurrence of
specific failure modes. FINDINGS: Results indicated that stellate endplate
fractures were associated with increased posterior shear forces (P < 0.05) and
less degenerated discs (P < 0.01). Fractures running laterally across the
endplate were associated with motion segments having larger volumes (P < 0.01).
Endplate depression was more common in smaller specimens (P < 0.01), as well as
those experiencing increased posterior shear force (P < 0.05). Zygapophysial
joint damage was more likely to occur in a neutral posture (P < 0.01).

INTERPRETATION: These results suggest that prediction of failure modes (e.g.,
specific endplate fracture patterns) may be possible (at least for older
specimens) given knowledge of the spinal loads along with certain characteristics
of the lumbar spine.


PMID: 16297512 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:34 AM   #23
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I'd be interested as well in what a neutral spine really is, and what the problem is if someone hasn't got one.

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Old 06-05-2009, 05:05 AM   #24
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I'll entertain the notion that one might be able to demonstrate that keeping ones spine in neutral might make the spine more resistant to injury, but only because this would limit ones activities to sitting and standing around quietly, or laying on a piece of plywood. Not inherently risky activities. This also assumes that 'injury' is quite distinct from 'pain,' and where in reality trying to maintain a neutral spine all the time might in fact become painful.

I'll reiterate the question; what's so great about the spine being in neutral?
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nari View Post
I'd be interested as well in what a neutral spine really is, and what the problem is if someone hasn't got one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John W View Post
If you've got some research evidence to support this statement, I'd be interested in it.

I know of one biomechanical study which suggests that the maintenance of a neutral lumbar spine may in fact predispose the facet joints to damage under certain loads (in bold):
It may be explained =>
Spine: A curved lesson
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:33 AM   #26
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Ughhhhh.

Yeah. What is so great about the spine being neutral? I'm a bit sick of interventions that confine human movement to one dimension (pilates anyone?). As far as the $20,000 Baniel method, I'd suggest taking a martial arts class... way more fun and waaaaayy cheaper. You'll also soon learn if you try to maintain the one perfect "anatomical neutral" position, you will be in serious trouble.
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:00 PM   #27
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Here's another study that challenges the notion of maintaining "neutral" lumbar spine positioning during heavy lifting:

Quote:
J Spinal Disord. 1999 Oct;12(5):436-47.

Effect of changes in lordosis on mechanics of the lumbar spine-lumbar curvature
in lifting.

Shirazi-Adl A, Parnianpour M.

Department of Mechanical Engineering, Ecole Polytechnique, Montréal, Québec,
Canada.

Using a realistic nonlinear three-dimensional finite element model, biomechanics
of the entire lumbar spine L1-S1, risk of tissue injury, and required local
lumbar muscle exertion in extended and flexed postures are investigated under
moderate to relatively large compression loads as great as 2800 N as the lumbar
lordosis is altered from the undeformed value of -46 degrees by + 15 degrees in
extension or by as much as 38 degrees in flexion. To prevent the instability of
the passive structure in compression, the changes in segmental rotations are
prescribed and the required sagittal/lateral moments at each level calculated.
The effect of load distribution is considered by applying the whole compression
on the L1 vertebra alone or among all vertebral levels with 90% or 80% of the
compression on the L1 and the remaining evenly shared by the rest. The results
are markedly affected by the postural changes and load distributions. The primary
global displacement responses are stiffened in the presence of combined loads.
The axial compression load substantially increases the intradiscal pressure,
facet loads, and disc fiber strains. The large facet loads at the caudal L5-S1
level causes large differential sagittal rotations at vertebral posterior and
anterior bony structures, resulting in large stresses in the pedicles and pars
interarticularis. The contribution of the passive structures in carrying the load
is influenced by the lumbar lordosis and compression load magnitude. Slight
flattening of the lumbar spine under large compression reduces the maximum disc
fiber strains and required equilibrating moments without adversely affecting the
disc pressure and ligament forces. During lifting tasks, the passive spinal
structures are protected by slight to moderate flattening in the lumbar
curvature, whereas larger flexion angles impose significantly higher risk by
increasing the disc pressure, disc anulus fiber strains, ligamentous forces, and
facet forces. Changes in lordosis also markedly affect the stabilizing sagittal
moments; the required moments diminish in small flexion angles, thus requiring
smaller forces in local lumbar muscles. Thus, the lumbar posture during heavy
lifting could be adjusted to minimize the required moments generated by lumbar
muscle exertions and the risk of tissue injury.


PMID: 10549710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
If you want to define "neutral" as within a certain zone from flexion to extension, then I can understand the rationale for maintaining movement within this zone when performing certain discrete tasks, such as heavy lifting. However, I don't understand the concept of trainging "spinal reflexes" in a non-WB position where the supposed mid-point of this zone is. It seems like your risking "training" the patient to hold their spine in a single, static, isometrically-held position, which is exactly the opposite of what we should be training patients after a back injury.

As Bernard's graphics represent in the referenced thread, the spine is flexible for very important reasons. Current evidence suggests that unresolved spinal pain is a consequence of a maintained protective response holding the spine in, you guessed it, neutral.

We need to teach patients how to get out of neutral, not into it.
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:16 PM   #28
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An observation from a PTA. If your car is in neutral you are not moving. And Motion is Life.
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John W View Post
Current evidence suggests that unresolved spinal pain is a consequence of a maintained protective response holding the spine in, you guessed it, neutral.
Here is a visual:
http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...79&postcount=3
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:58 PM   #30
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I will be receiving the book soon and a separate thread regarding its contents will begin next week.

In the meantime I’m reviewing my copy of what I believe was Feldenkrais’ last published book, The Elusive Obvious, published in ’81. He passed away in ’84.

Though his writing is rather dense and confusing at times, I still get the sense that he was remarkably insightful, especially given the neuroscience available at the time. Here’s an example:

It’s my understanding (from my reading of Moseley) that pain is an output from the brain when two circumstances are sufficiently satisfied within the neuromatrix. It (the brain) says, “There’s tissue in danger and you need to do something.” Pain is our call to action and the proper action – and there may be several – will reduce the output of pain or eliminate it entirely. I hope I’m right here because this is an important issue and I’d really like to get this down accurately.

On page 62 of the aforementioned book, Feldenkrais is writing of an infant’s instinctive reaction to the sensation of falling:

Quote:
The baby cries as part of this reaction. (This is because) it is in need of immediate protection and feels pain.
Notice he didn’t say it had been harmed at all, only that it sensed danger and did what it had to do in order to elicit help.

Not bad, especially if written at the nadir of the disco era.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:41 PM   #31
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Actually it is rather pleasant to lie on something like a roller and 'balance'. It is a novelty the brain might appreciate, but I fail to see what it has to do with good bad or indifferent posture.

I recall a practice of the early 1990s where one placed a tennis ball in a stocking, dropped it down the spine and then did squat movements up and down against the wall. It felt great for aches and pains but although it was effective, nobody had any notion of 'why' other than mobilising facet joints and muscle.
Now we do know....

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Old 07-05-2009, 09:53 PM   #32
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Hi;

The research I referenced was presented at the ACSM meeting by Ohio St. Researchers. "Improving trunk stability may decrease injury risk and improve performance", said Chris McKenzie PT, ATC. The training involves the ventromedial or reflexive neurological motor pathway. The training involves keeping the spine centered over the pelvis. July 2008 biomech.com. They'er in the process of following up the research. They're be presenting at the 2009 NATA Conf. also.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:26 PM   #33
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Smith,
I couldn't find the article you referenced at biomech.com. Can you insert a direct link?
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:30 PM   #34
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The biomech URL is

www.biomech.com/full_article/?ArticleID=10538&month=07&=2008 the title is "Baseball researchers expand investigation of core competency", pg. 9, July 2008.

Also new update info at

www.training-conditioning.com/2009/04/one_step_ahead.html April 2009 issue titled one step ahead

Thes OSU boys know how to get press with one study.

They'll also be presenting at the NATA 2009 conf. of course I'll let eveyone know the details.
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Old 29-05-2012, 09:26 PM   #35
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I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but is there a review out there?

I bought this book years ago because of this thread...still haven't read it though

...but today I saw a name that looked familiar:

"...one speaker after another is making unsupported, unscientific claims and then offering their own special therapy. The one thing that most of these presentations have in common is that the speaker is making money from selling their so-called treatments. For example, Anat Baniel offers her self-named “Anat Baniel method” and is promoting it through ads in the conference program."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...at-autism-one/
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Old 29-05-2012, 09:58 PM   #36
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That's the second time I've seen some sharp criticism and questioning of a course here recently.

What's happening?
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Old 29-05-2012, 11:32 PM   #37
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Check out the whole of this thread.
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Old 30-05-2012, 07:06 PM   #38
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78 posts while my 2.5 month old daughter is sleeping...I'll see how far I get before she wakes up
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Old 31-05-2012, 03:42 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
I don't know anything about this work other than what I've read, took in a single weekend workshop, and heard from Barrett, but as far as I know Feldenkrais didn't discuss pain at all. Did he?

I recall hearing that he developed the entire movement system to rehab his own knee after some injury or surgery or something. Then he just kept going with it.

He also invented a whole self-defense system that looked a lot like judo, but wasn't. He was given an honorary black belt anyway, by a national judo organization. Apparently he was some kind of kinesthetic genius.
I think he was just a Judoka. I have never heard about him inventing his own self-defense system or that his rank was honorary. He was supposed to be very good though.
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Old 31-05-2012, 07:00 AM   #40
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She casts her net to wide with the promises she makes on her website. I find it revolting. Life is full of broken promises no matter how you move. She is selling repackaged ideas to people whom have hopes and dreams, from what I can tell by the website.
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Old 31-05-2012, 07:54 AM   #41
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Starting this thread I was worried she was going to get a pass.

MileHigh, yes got it right, looks like another one whose product is hope.

Hope is a wonderful thing, I don't believe it's something that should ever be bought or sold, at best after that comes cynicism.
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