??? Sorry team, Posture again

[Ken Jakalski]

My wife and youngest daughter are elementary teachers. After fifth grade, recess is no longer part of the school day. Both believe, as do all their colleagues, that recess is an essential component to effective learning. They would never want to see recess go away at their level.

But it does at the junior high and high school. Some say PE takes the place of it, but I don't think so. Grade schools have PE in addition to recess. Maybe the value is in the instincitive nature of recess. It's movement jazz.

By junior high, PE is choreographed.

[roseredbelle]

Hello,

I saw you brought up what stirs up a bitter argument between many I believe. But heres a good tip you can try yourself. Try a range of motion test on your client, work on them and achieve a pain reduction. Try the range of motion again, and see if theres any difference. Be sure to do that to several people.

I have worked on a good number of people, and while I can vouch that a some of the clients felt better and got better range of motion, sometimes they didn't. I think a good deal of it depends on the nerves.

When muscles are tight, they can compress nerves. If nerves are compressed, per say by bad posuture, they release nerves sensatizing substances that irritate the motor endplate and tighten the muscle. It can sometimes be like that age old question 'the chicken or the egg.' Well, cheers! Hope this helps.

[TexasOrtho]

Uh oh...

[Diane]

Hi roseredbelle,
Please start a thread in our welcome forum and introduce yourself, so that we may welcome you properly.
What do you do out there in the world?

[Randy Dixon]

Originally Posted by nari

Barrett,
I'm interested why you think diaphragmatic breathing is counter-cultural, and thus would lead to chronic pain. It's probably bloomin' obvious but I can't assume that sequiter. I would think that people simply breathe nonconsciously and would need to be taught diaphragmatic breathing.

Nari

Babies breathe with their diaphragm as do young children. It doesn't need to be taught, but it makes us look like we have soft weak bellies so we quit doing it until we forget how to do it and do have to be taught how to do it. I think this is common for many things we do and movement patterns/postures we adapt. This is one reason why I don't entirely reject postural/movement analysis and intervention that most here reject. I believe we can repress certain movements, over a long period of time this can lead to morphological changes which can, grossly, be detected. Simply "enabling" movement is not enough for this situation, since the instinctive correction has been so long repressed it is absent. Instead what needs to be done is the correct movement has to be encouraged and retrained. It is not unlike a stroke patient. We can't evaluate or know all the nuances of stabilization, inhibition, contraction, limb position, motor patterning, etc. that needs to done to retrain a movement but we can observe gross deviations and place the patient in the biomechanical and neurological ballpark so they can find it themselves.

About diaphragmatic breathing. 25 years or so ago I was interviewing for a job as a police officer, which required taking a lie detector test. This involved measuring several biological processes, one of which was breathing. They placed a strap around my chest to do this. They then asked me several embarrassing and emotionally charged questions. A decade of studying martial arts and meditation meant that I normally breathed with my diaphragm and when feeling pressure, which I definitely was feeling, this became more pronounced as did my attempts to slow my breathing. It wasn't a conscious thing but was my natural reaction. The tester got mad and told me to breathe normally. I said I was. He got even madder and accused me of trying to alter the test. This was even more pressure and only worsened the condition. He then said he was going to fail me unless I "breathed normally" so I took some big chest breaths. He turned bright red and told me I failed the test. Luckily, another tester witnessed the whole thing and I got to come back another day and retake the test.

[nari]

Maybe I'm weird or something, but quite often in a tense situation I consciously hold my breath beforeany awareness of instinctive breath-holding. It seems to work better than conscious diaphragmatic breathing. (I have debated that with Bernard, about 7 years ago!)

Your experience with the lie detector test sound rather horrid. At least the other PO was there to give you a second chance. Sounds like you didn't make the grade anyway for PO training?

Nari

[Diane]

That is a GREAT story Randy.

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi roserebelle!

Welcome aboard!

If nerves are compressed, per say by bad posuture, they release nerves sensatizing substances that irritate the motor endplate and tighten the muscle

.

If bad posture can lead to compressed nerves, are you then correcting for bad posture? If so, how are you doing this?

[Greg Lehman]

I might be missing something here but I am little confused why Rods "Uh Oh" got so many thanks. The essence of what the poster stated is very similar to some of the explanations for how simple therapies resolve a pain state. She wrote:

"When muscles are tight, they can compress nerves. If nerves are compressed, per say by bad posuture, they release nerves sensatizing substances that irritate the motor endplate and tighten the muscle. It can sometimes be like that age old question 'the chicken or the egg.'"

While the details can be argued and the reliance on nociception being a driver for the pain state has been hashed over in detail the basic premise of what she says is how many have explained their treatments here. I think specifically of Jason's video explanations and Diane's rationale behind skin stretch. Very bluntly many of these explanations suggest:

- some abnormal tension exists
- this abnormal tension may cause mechanical deformation on those O2 greedy nerves
- pain is experienced
- pain leads to the defense of altered posture
- resolution of that tension via some a mechanical means (i.e. manual therapy) that results in a neurophysiological response
- this resolution of neural tension may lead to some decrease in nociception and in downregulation of pain
- alterations in posture may occur with a resolution of pain


This is basically what I think this poster was writing.

Is the main issue that some people might have is that the post suggests that nerves are compressed by bad posture rather than the "bad posture" being a result of the pain?

Other than that it seems pretty consistent with what has been written in the thread.

Thanks, just wondering if I am missing something.

Greg

[John W]

Babies breathe with their diaphragm as do young children. It doesn't need to be taught, but it makes us look like we have soft weak bellies so we quit doing it until we forget how to do it and do have to be taught how to do it. I think this is common for many things we do and movement patterns/postures we adapt. This is one reason why I don't entirely reject postural/movement analysis and intervention that most here reject.

If someone's not breathing well, or can't breathe with their diaphragm, and they have pain, then why bother analyzing all the possible postural and alignment consequences of that? Why not just address the breathing (i.e. sympathetic tone) and then see what happens?

To me, it's an issue of expediency by obviating yet another alignment/posture rabbit hole.

Perhaps if that doesn't work, then coming at the patient through the posture/alignment "back door" may be warranted. Otherwise I find the approach very tedious, time-consuming and generally fruitless.

[John W]

Greg,

Won't speak for Rod, but my "uh oh" meter starts to move into the yellow zone when I hear the terms "tight muscle" and "bad posture".

Until these are defined, my meter remains in the yellow.

[Greg Lehman]

I am with you on that John but I consistently here about "tightness" or tension being something that is palpated here and is resolved. I have not heard it quantified but it seems to be the primary explanation for what it is we palpate for and something that we often want to effect a change in (e.g. softening).

I asked about this here: http://somasimple.com/forums/showthr...crossing+chasm

Greg

[Barrett Dorko]

I'll go a step further. I think that an explanation such as this, while common, is perfectly awful. It certainly isn't something I would say.

[TexasOrtho]

Agreed John and Barrett. I don't typically go right at a new member brave enough to dip their toes into the water here. Like John though, my "meter" goes off when I hear about tight muscles and bad posture.

It's not personal. I'm just bracing for the discussion / exorcism.

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi Rod!

I got your "uh-oh" right away.

from "A Review of Resistance Exercise and Posture Realignment" Con Hrysomallis & Craig Goodman
J of Strength & Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 3, pp.385-390

A review of the literature has found a lack of reliable, valid data collected in controlled settings to support the contention that exercise will correct existing postural deviations. Likewise, objective data to indicate that exercise will lead to postural deviations are lacking. It is likely that exercise programs are of insufficient duration and frequency to induce adaptive changes in muscle-tendon length. Additionally, any adaptations from
restricted range-of-movement exercise would likely be offset by daily living activities that frequently require the body segments to go through full ranges of motion."

[Barrett Dorko]

Of course it's not personal. Any response implying such a thing would be rapidly moderated here.

What I (maybe we) don't do here is enable.

Some therapists with completely whacked-out ideas and explanations are none the less effective and caring. I am even friendly with them - but not their ideas.

[John W]

Greg,

Lots of physiological processes can result in a feeling of tension under our palpating fingers, skeletal muscle tone being the most oft incriminated by our muscle-obsessed colleagues. But also vascular congestion, which can result from changes in smoothe muscle tone/vasconstriction, can result in a sense of tension, thickness in and beneath the skin. Depending on where you're palpating, if you're over a nerve trunk or large enough cutaneous twig, it might be the nerve itself that's engorged with hypoxic junk and feel hard and stringy and not at all "happy" about the current state of affairs.

It's easy to blame muscle tightness/tension, but I don't think it's accurate or helpful to describe what we feel in those terms.

[Greg Lehman]

My interpretation is that what she was saying is hardly any different than what many of the posters that I respect here right. However, I think its my responsibility to find some quotes for this to support it. I did not just take from her initial post that bad posture lead to pain.

Greg

[Barrett Dorko]

Well, if this poster is calling "muscle tightness" (by which I assume she means isometric contraction) a problem that is resolved with relaxation I think she's entirely wrong.

See this essay and please tell me how I'm wrong.

[John W]

Greg,

I'm awaiting more explanation of what these terms might mean, but, in general, I think we should get away from describing what we find in patients as "tight muscles" and "bad posture", regardless of how these might relate- or not- to pain.

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi Greg!

Is the main issue that some people might have is that the post suggests that nerves are compressed by bad posture rather than the "bad posture" being a result of the pain?

I see what you mean. My first reaction was to ask the questions I did, wondering if Rose meant that pain resolution could be achieved through postural corrrection.

[amacs]

Originally Posted by Ken Jakalski

Hi Rod!

I got your "uh-oh" right away.

from "A Review of Resistance Exercise and Posture Realignment" Con Hrysomallis & Craig Goodman
J of Strength & Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 3, pp.385-390

A review of the literature has found a lack of reliable, valid data collected in controlled settings to support the contention that exercise will correct existing postural deviations. Likewise, objective data to indicate that exercise will lead to postural deviations are lacking. It is likely that exercise programs are of insufficient duration and frequency to induce adaptive changes in muscle-tendon length. Additionally, any adaptations from
restricted range-of-movement exercise would likely be offset by daily living activities that frequently require the body segments to go through full ranges of motion."

Thanks for that Ken

I am not sure that review would stand as well today, in general terms it is I think quite adequate but in specific settings where chronic exercise is undertaken I think there is at least some evidence that exercise can have an effect. Quite how that is mediated is another matter and what the relationship is if any in the painful patient is quite another.

ANdy the difficult

p.s. Welcome Roseredbelle explore the site as there is gold to be found.

[miaou]

Originally Posted by Ken Jakalski

Hi Rod!

I got your "uh-oh" right away.

from "A Review of Resistance Exercise and Posture Realignment" Con Hrysomallis & Craig Goodman
J of Strength & Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 3, pp.385-390

A review of the literature has found a lack of reliable, valid data collected in controlled settings to support the contention that exercise will correct existing postural deviations. Likewise, objective data to indicate that exercise will lead to postural deviations are lacking. It is likely that exercise programs are of insufficient duration and frequency to induce adaptive changes in muscle-tendon length. Additionally, any adaptations from
restricted range-of-movement exercise would likely be offset by daily living activities that frequently require the body segments to go through full ranges of motion."

Ken,

what are your thoughts regarding this more recent study that suggests full-ROM resistance training may be effective in improving flexibility? It is a small "preliminary" study, but the results seem to agree with practical experience.

Resistance training vs. static stretching: effects on flexibility and strength. (Morton et al., 2011)

[Greg Lehman]

From John,

I'm awaiting more explanation of what these terms might mean, but, in general, I think we should get away from describing what we find in patients as "tight muscles" and "bad posture", regardless of how these might relate- or not- to pain.

I can't provide those definitions. I don't use them except in quotes on this board.

Barrett,

Well, if this poster is calling "muscle tightness" (by which I assume she means isometric contraction) a problem that is resolved with relaxation I think she's entirely wrong.

See this essay and please tell me how I'm wrong.

I've been pretty consistent with my questions/doubt about "muscle tightness" so can't really argue with you. Barretts doubts about tension (along with Patricks) have also been consistently presented in this thread.

However, the idea that tension leads to altered postures (e.g defense versus defects to channel Bas) is a pretty consistent idea on this thread and on the previous ones about biomechanics.

If this poster is posture is the cause of pain and must be corrected to alleviate pain than I can't help there. And to be honest, I also said "Uh oh" in my head. But I do think she might be closer to crossing the chasm then we might think and wanted to give the benefit of the doubt.

I will stop now.

Greg

[Randy Dixon]

Originally Posted by nari

Maybe I'm weird or something, but quite often in a tense situation I consciously hold my breath beforeany awareness of instinctive breath-holding. It seems to work better than conscious diaphragmatic breathing. (I have debated that with Bernard, about 7 years ago!)

Your experience with the lie detector test sound rather horrid. At least the other PO was there to give you a second chance. Sounds like you didn't make the grade anyway for PO training?

Nari

No, I passed. I worked for a cop for a total of 14 months, which was long enough to decide I wasn't cut out to be a cop. I don't like rules myself so had a hard time making others follow them when they don't make sense and you see a lot of emotionally tough things and I had a hard time letting them go every day.

[Randy Dixon]

Originally Posted by John W

If someone's not breathing well, or can't breathe with their diaphragm, and they have pain, then why bother analyzing all the possible postural and alignment consequences of that? Why not just address the breathing (i.e. sympathetic tone) and then see what happens?

To me, it's an issue of expediency by obviating yet another alignment/posture rabbit hole.

Perhaps if that doesn't work, then coming at the patient through the posture/alignment "back door" may be warranted. Otherwise I find the approach very tedious, time-consuming and generally fruitless.

Because I was referring not only to diaphragmatic breathing but other learned movement patterns and postures as well. Yeah, if someone is having trouble with their breathing, address that first, but I wasn't confining myself to that alone.

[Randy Dixon]

[QUOTE=nari;136635]Maybe I'm weird or something, but quite often in a tense situation I consciously hold my breath beforeany awareness of instinctive breath-holding. It seems to work better than conscious diaphragmatic breathing. (I have debated that with Bernard, about 7 years ago!)

Nari,

I'll try to tie a couple of post together here. I think in the immediate term that holding your breath and preparing for impact or rapid movement is natural and instinctive. This is why consciously NOT doing that, not taking quick rapid breaths and not getting ready for fight or flight works in reducing stress. I think this goes back to what I think Rose was trying to get at, that modulation works both ways, we breathe more deeply when we are relaxed and we become more relaxed when we breathe deeply. She put it as the chicken and the egg, I might say the arrow points both ways.

Personally, holding my breath increases my tension but sometimes the act of holding my breath creates tension and when I finally exhale and inhale the tension I felt is relieved and results in deeper breathing as I try to repay my oxygen debt. I think it is simply a different route to the same destination.

[Randy Dixon]

[QUOTE=Greg Lehman;136657]I might be missing something here but I am little confused why Rods "Uh Oh" got so many thanks. The essence of what the poster stated is very similar to some of the explanations for how simple therapies resolve a pain state. She wrote:

Because this is just what I do, I'm going to point out something that I've wondered about regarding the "thanks" button.

If you watched the GOP Primary debates you would have noticed the difference between the ones where the audience was allowed to respond to the candidates responses and the ones where the audience was expected to remain silent. In the first, it was all about appealing to the emotions of the audience and getting the loudest response, in the second, the answers had to be more substantive, or at least seem to be. This made for two quite different type of debates.

When you use the "thanks" button are you saying "thanks" or are you "applauding", making a racket to give your candidate an emotional boost while doing the opposite for the other guy? Something to consider.

Let the floggings commence and "thank" if you like.

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi miaou!

what are your thoughts regarding this more recent study that suggests full-ROM resistance training may be effective in improving flexibility? It is a small "preliminary" study, but the results seem to agree with practical experience.

My oldest daughter was never able to earn a President’s Physical Fitness Award because she never met the standard on the old “sit and reach” test. Nevertheless, she comopeted injury free at a high level throughout high school, and performed very well on every other test.

Mel had an answer for me on this:
“Any measures of static ROM (like the "sit and reach" test) can be little more than useless or irrelevant if one wishes to analyze individual motor capabilities under all conditions.”

So, is flexibility exactly what athletes need to compete at a high level?

Because I’ve been around for many years, I was influenced by the work of Bob Gajda, whom I often refer to as my ‘Polish brother.” In 1966 Bob won all three of the biggest bodybuilding competitions-- Mr. USA, Mr. America and Mr. Universe in the same year.

Bob noted the following in his book, Total Body Training, which he co-authored with Dr. Richard Dominguez. His ideas on performance training were very controversial for the early eighties. For example:

“If maximum flexibility were the test for athletic prowess, then victims of polio would be our best athletes. Legs that are partially or completely paralyzed by polio have almost complete flexibility. But these partially or completely paralyzed legs are extremely unstable, and incapable of supporting weight of any sort. What we really need for athletic performance is stability throughout a full range of motion of the joint.”

Many of my colleagues still believe that they are making muscles “flexible” when they are really talking about joints.

What both Bob Gajda and Mel Siff emphasized, and what I think makes sense: think strength. As Gadja noted: “All of the muscles in the hips and legs work, and they are constantly turning off and on. The reason they are all involved is that they frequently act as midcourse correctors. To go where you want to go, you must use all of these muscles.”

From Mel: “If you are referring to the action of the knee joint, then remember that strength is the result of neuromuscular processes causing a given joint to move in a given direction over a given range, not just the length of tissues. Thus, the ROM (flexibility) of your knee can be limited if you have shortened quadriceps or hamstrings, or if chronic usage of those muscles has ingrained a limiting motor program into your "nervous system computer.”

So, in this regard, I believe that the findings of the study you noted are not surprising, and that the results do agree with practical experience.

Always controversial, Bob Gajda would discuss stability--using parallels to gorillas:

“If you compare the structure and abilities of a gorilla and a man, you will understand that we say about stability. The man is much more mobile. The gorilla is much stronger, but it can stand erect for only short periods and spends most of its time crouched in an all-fours position. It uses its shoulder girdle, collarbone, and scapula much like a pelvis. The huge pectoral, seratus, and latissimus dorsi muscles act like a suspension bridge for the entire torso.

While we are not recommending that our readers walk around on all fours, we are suggesting that you can learn about stability from a friendly gorilla.”

Coaches back then used to walk out on Bob’s presentations, but loved to hear him talk about training. Nine years ago, he autographed my 1982 copy of his book with the folowing:

"To my Polish brother Ken, im memory and honor forever."

[zendogg]

JOhn:

If someone's not breathing well, or can't breathe with their diaphragm, and they have pain, then why bother analyzing all the possible postural and alignment consequences of that? Why not just address the breathing (i.e. sympathetic tone) and then see what happens?

I would bother analyzing the posture if he/she was all bent over collapsing her ribcage on her lungs and altering the shape of the diaphragm. perhaps she can't take a breath because she has adapted to a shape because of emotional strain, work position, osteoporosis, weakness, cranky nerves in the spinal area, and on and on. How many times have we heard here that just because someone has knee pain it might have nothing to do with the knee? But now somebody has breathing problems and we go straight for the breathing? Have I misunderstood your take on this?
nathan

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi Randy!

When you use the "thanks" button are you saying "thanks" or are you "applauding", making a racket to give your candidate an emotional boost while doing the opposite for the other guy? Something to consider.

When I add a thanks, it's usually because a particular post clarified something for me, or helped me to look at an issue from a different perspective. Sometimes, I just enjoy the writing style and imagery.

I've never considered that I might be giving specific posters an emotional boost by a clap or thanks, or disrespecting others for not doing so. I'd like to think that the folks here view the claps and thanks as the reader's immediate response to something that touched them, and not just an "attaboy" to reward someone whose position they agree with.

Over the years, I've had some epic battles on speed mechanics with Drs. Michael Yessis and Alex Michalow, and sometimes those exchanges got pretty abrasive, but I still would enjoy a good dinner with either of them, and told them so on more than one occasion.

I like those who concur with my positions, because I can use them as resources. But I also like those who don't agree with me, because they compel me to clarify my positions and present my arguments with greater attention to detail.

One of the locomotion guys once said I reminded him of Detective Columbo because I would ask probing questions, knew where I was heading, but came across initially as friendly, unassuming, and non threatening.

I've always like that. I wish I had beige raincoat like Peter Falk.

[zendogg]

By the way, I want to reiterate that while I was a "posture therapist" I took many pictures of people before, during and after sessions and after weeks of doing the routines. I never failed to see changes toward what we would all say is aligned with plumb, and the frontal and transverse planes.
I have already heard the thoughts that people are trying to look good for the camera, or for me and all that. Sorry, too hard for me to believe that the majority of the people I worked with were A) capable of figuring out how to perfect their posture with eyes closed, and B) most of them had next to zero understanding of anatomy or body awareness.

I will admit that I do not know by what mechanism the posture was changed! Was is stronger muscles that held them in the new positions? Doubt it, because then we are saying that I could keep dialing up the tension in said muscles and eventually tweak them to far the other way! Bad model.
I like the idea that exploring movement potential and novelty was enough to take pressure off of nerves, feed stuff, recalibrate maps and hence the body just started working more efficiently and holistically again.

I will admit that although a change in posture was seen, certainly not all were relieved of their pain complaint

Nathan

[miaou]

Originally Posted by Ken Jakalski

From Mel: “If you are referring to the action of the knee joint, then remember that strength is the result of neuromuscular processes causing a given joint to move in a given direction over a given range, not just the length of tissues. Thus, the ROM (flexibility) of your knee can be limited if you have shortened quadriceps or hamstrings, or if chronic usage of those muscles has ingrained a limiting motor program into your "nervous system computer.”

So, in this regard, I believe that the findings of the study you noted are not surprising, and that the results do agree with practical experience.

Ken!

if this is something you agree with, that exercise can alter flexibility, possibly through either changes in muscle length, neural changes, or both, then doesn't this sort of contradict the notion that exercise cannot possibly affect posture?

Not to mention the obvious example of athletes in uni-lateral sports, who often develop postural adaptations (some still call them "deviations").
Example: Asymmetric resting scapular posture in healthy overhead athletes.

[Bas Asselbergs]

Nathan, the idea that patients do NOT know what "good posture" is, is in my opinion wrong.
In our western societies, everybody grows up knowing "straight" is good posture.
If I clearly show a patient by taking photos of their posture, then treat and then re-shoot more than once, I am clearly showing them MY expectation that there should be change.
Furthermore, their posture is a moment-in-time observation, completely out of context with their normal life motion, and the follow-ups are even more out of context - now they are expected to be different in posture.

All in all, focusing on posture is fraught with pitfalls and distracts from the necessary focus on movement as therapy.

Spoken like a true "recovering posturist".

[John W]

But now somebody has breathing problems and we go straight for the breathing? Have I misunderstood your take on this?

When the primary complaint is pain, the treatment of pain should be primary. --Barrett Dorko

Nathan,
Have you read the Five Questions thread?

[Bas Asselbergs]

How many times have we heard here that just because someone has knee pain it might have nothing to do with the knee? But now somebody has breathing problems and we go straight for the breathing? Have I misunderstood your take on this?

Breathing apically is not a brain perception of the patient, like knee pain is.

[zendogg]

John,
I am reading the 5 questions thread now.

Not sure I understand your quotes in your answer, how they apply??

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi miaou!

if this is something you agree with, that exercise can alter flexibility, possibly through either changes in muscle length, neural changes, or both, then doesn't this sort of contradict the notion that exercise cannot possibly affect posture

We've all seen studies which conclude that strength training does nothing to improve posture, but my experience with prep athletes demonstrates often dramatica improvemednts static posture after participating in a strength training program. The following images are an example of that. The first image shows one of my athletes running in our school hallways as a freshman. The second image shows that same athlete in the same hallway at the same time of the season one year later. The overlay will show just how much his posture and angles at the hip and knee have changed. However, I gave him no movement cues, swing mechanics drills, or "form" correction recommendation. The only difference from his first year to his second year was our strength training protocol.


So what really made the difference. Strength? I asked Mel about this once.

His response:


"I agree with you on this score, but it may be that the improvement does not necessarily have to do with increases in strength, but with other processes that resistive training may mediate, such as disinhibition of certain muscle actions, facilitation of other muscle actions, post-exercise relaxation, overflow, enhanced proprioceptive sensitivity, conditioning of certain reflexes or other neurally based facilitatory processes. So, while
strength increase may not always be the direct cause of postural improvement, other processes involved with strength training may be responsible for causing definite change. There is some interesting scope for research here."

[miaou]

Originally Posted by Ken Jakalski

"I agree with you on this score, but it may be that the improvement does not necessarily have to do with increases in strength, but with other processes that resistive training may mediate, such as disinhibition of certain muscle actions, facilitation of other muscle actions, post-exercise relaxation, overflow, enhanced proprioceptive sensitivity, conditioning of certain reflexes or other neurally based facilitatory processes. So, while strength increase may not always be the direct cause of postural improvement, other processes involved with strength training may be responsible for causing definite change. There is some interesting scope for research here."

Ken!

I absolutely agree with this viewpoint. Strength training does not only affect muscle force output, it affects a whole number of neurophysiologic parameters, as Mell appropriately notes.

The claim that strength training can potentially affect posture, does not necessitate that strength increase is the culprit.

Based on the literature I've seen and on practical experience (which seems fairly overwhelming in this particular subject, a point both you and Mel seem to agree on), I cannot see how the notion that exercise cannot affect posture can be logically viable.

[TexasOrtho]

I'm not sure where I've seen anyone make the claim that strength cannot influence posture. I have seen many of us question the clinical relevance of static posture and postural assessment.

Posture is a process. The body's motor response to internal and external cues. Like pain...it's an output. I think "postural correction" is about as useful as correcting the patient's pain report.

"I know you say you are at 7/10...but you look more like a 4 to me."

[Greg Lehman]

Some Research on changing posture and form through exercise
Here is a sampling of studies looking at both strengthening and stretching programs designed to change Scapular position or posture in general . This is ridiculously difficult to do. None of the following studies were able to do it:
- a review here by Con Hrysomallis looking at Shoulder position http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20072041
- a review by Hrysomallis looking in general at the ability to change posture: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11710670
-Wang et al (1999) Stretching and strengthening exercises: their effect on three-dimensional scapular kinematics.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10453769
- McClure et al (2004) Shoulder function and 3-dimensional kinematics in people with shoulder impingement syndrome before and after a 6-week exercise program: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15330696
-Hibbard et al (2012) Effect of a 6-Week Strengthening Program on Shoulder and Scapular Stabilizer Strength and Scapular Kinematics in Division I Collegiate Swimmers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22387875

[John W]

Nathan,

As Bas helped to clarify, breathing is a normally non-conscious activity that can indicate elevated or mal-adaptive sympathetic output. A patient in a persistent pain state will frequently present in "fight or flight" mode due to the persistent perceived threat associated with the pain. Apical breathing is, in my experience, a frequent manifestation of this.

In Cory Blickenstaff's videos of "Edgework" movements, he recommends using diaphgragmatic breathing to "stack the deck" in the patient's favor to help bring about normalized autonomic activity while performing novel and/or dissociative movements. I've found this approach to be extremely useful and effective.

The patient's breathing, then, is a primary indicator of the state of their ANS, which when pain is the primary complaint should be of primary concern to the therapist.

[caro]

Posture is a process. The body's motor response to internal and external cues. Like pain...it's an output. I think "postural correction" is about as useful as correcting the patient's pain report.

"I know you say you are at 7/10...but you look more like a 4 to me."

Rod, I just posted this to my FB wall, with proper attribution. Is that a problem for you? Should it be, I'll delete it.

I just feel it drives the point very concisely and effectively.

[Ken Jakalski]

Because I’ve been around for many years, I was influenced by the work of Bob Gajda, whom I often refer to as my ‘Polish brother.” In 1966 Bob won all three of the biggest bodybuilding competitions-- Mr. USA, Mr. America and Mr. Universe in the same year.

I mentioned Bob Gajda previously. For those who would like a little more on him, here's a clip from his induction into the AOBS Hall of Fame last year (Association of Oldetime Barbell and Strongmen). Gajda holds degrees in Physiology, Exercise Physiology,and Biomechanics. He was inducted into the National Fitness Hall of Fame in 2008.


One of the many things I shared with Mel was our appreciation for a lot of these old timers in the iron game.

Below the video is a picture of Mel with another legend whom you all know. One popular though disputed story is that Bob once beat Arnold in competition.


Though the attached video goes for ten minutes, (most of which involves his bio and introduction), Bob says some interesting things in the last couple of minutes. Early on, the story about him being influenced by a Catholic nun is pretty cool.


One of my few claims to fame is that I had pizza and beer with Bob here in Lisle a few years back.

[miaou]

Originally Posted by Greg Lehman

Some Research on changing posture and form through exercise
Here is a sampling of studies looking at both strengthening and stretching programs designed to change Scapular position or posture in general . This is ridiculously difficult to do. None of the following studies were able to do it:
- a review here by Con Hrysomallis looking at Shoulder position http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20072041
- a review by Hrysomallis looking in general at the ability to change posture: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11710670

Hi Greg, thanks for the reply!

The second review from 2001 is the one Ken already quoted (the quote that sparked this small discussion). In the abstract of that review, Hrysomallis suggested lack of evidence to support the claim that exercise can affect posture ("correct existing postural deviations" or "lead to postural deviations") or muscle length. Since then, there is at least some data to support the notion that exercise can affect posture and flexibility. I also offered my personal opinion that practical experience seems to be overwhelming on this particular point.


From Hrysomallis' 2010 review: "Correlational studies have failed to detect a significant association between muscle strength and scapular position but found a significant relationship between muscle length and scapular position. Prospective intervention studies have shown that stretching the anterior chest muscles on its own or in combination with strengthening the scapular retractors can alter the position of the scapula at rest in individuals with abducted scapulae. Although these results are encouraging, there is a dearth of high-quality studies and more research is required to address the limitations of the studies. None of the intervention studies measured strength or flexibility pre or post intervention, so it is unclear how effective the intervention was in changing these factors and the actual mechanism behind the change. To determine which component of the intervention is most effective and whether the results are additive, future research should include stretching only, strengthening only, and combined stretching and strengthening groups."

Without going through the full text of the study, and only judging by the info the author considered fundamental enough to include in the abstract (if the full text contradicts my hasty conclusions, please feel free to correct me), it seems to me that Hrysomallis objects specifically to the idea that strength and "strengthening" correlates with posture and postural changes, and raises the issue that studies that did find postural changes did not specifically examine for the mechanisms involved. This seems like a departure from his 2001 thesis towards a view that is slightly more favorable to exercise being potentially relevant (or, at least, less dismissive of that notion!). Having said that, and as was already alluded to, strength training is more that just "strengthening" and changes in posture and dynamic motor patterns can be mediated by more than just the strengthening effects of exercise.

[Diane]

(You get around some Ken, don't you?)

[nari]

Note to our UK posters:

During a not so recent episode of QI, Stephen Fry put up two displays of correct and incorrect sitting posture, One was slumped, with the gluts near the forward edge of the chair, the other perfectly erect. He stated the the slumped one was correct and the other was not good for your health.

Does anyone know his rationalisation? Not that I disagree with him entirely....

Nari

[Ken Jakalski]

Hi Diane!

(You get around some Ken, don't you?)

And sometimes...in style...and very quickly!

I've been sending this picture to several of my non-retired teaching and coaching colleagues with the tag line:

"Justification for higher education--retirement so far has been very good to me."

Now the truth....

This ain't my car.

One of my former runners from thirty-three years ago took me on a Ferrari Club Road Rally. He's in corporate banking, and owns and races Ferraris. He had it up to 140 mph in the practically the length of a long sneeze.

For me, just getting in and out of the passenger side seat was an adventure.

[yogalign]

Originally Posted by zendogg

I'd still like to hear some comments on my post #93 if you think there is anything there to work with.

Nari said:


I would have to agree with Patrick on this as human primate social grooming is a big notion here. Just having someone touch you could be enough. After all if I finally understand Barrett, ideomotion is already there anyway and it hasn't fixed the problem yet. WIth regards to social restrictions on instinctual motion, I struggle with the narrowness of what I think is meant by this. If a woman not being able to express ideomotion in terms of being able to sit like a man with her legs open, and now her hip hurts, then should we see leg separating in a therapy session? Or whatever else has been restricted? Don't get me wrong, I have seen many positive and frankly unbelievable results from it. I am not arguing existence I am arguing theory.

Cdano: You are not alone in having pain whilst being a yoga practitioner. Patricia walden, one of Iyengars top sentinels had a hip replacement. Manuso Manos has almost had a hip replacement. Tim Miller can barely move these days. I had to seriously re-evaluate this program called yoga several times because I had pain and mostly because of my practice.
I want to be clear! I am not saying that I think yoga in and of itself is a pain cure. Nor are the movements associated with yoga a pain cure. I suspect doing yoga has correlations to playing football from the perspective of trying to jam your self into pretzels. Hell even Iyengar has F%&$ed his back up.
I am putting it out there that if forward bending is a move you want to explore, that I can help you adjust the actions and non-actions of your attempt to help you (As I have experienced in a crystal clear way in my body) perform that movement with the best mechanics possible. I am calling it "best" best because when I perform these actions well my body enters the poses fully, with no stretch sensation, no pain, my mind is calm and not scared etc. I can also show you ways to make it hurt like hell, and make all sorts of accessory joint motion if you want. My assertion is that there is sometimes a better way. And without getting too philosophical, Ahimsa (do no harm) is a tenant of yoga and a subject that could fill volumes. Your pronation story could not be a more shining example of what I think we as therapists do, and what is regularly rejected here. You either figured out a better way, or (I am trying to figure this out...) you did something novel, something you didn't normally do and you helped elicit modulation. What do you think happened?

Nathan

I have practiced yoga forty years and started to have hip pain about 20 years ago so I stopped doing asana the 'traditional way" and innovated a style I now call YogAlign. It is based on yoga positions that simulate natural human design and biomechanics. We are NOT designed to bend over from standing or sitting with our feet together and our knees straight. Over and over people doing asana flex the lumbar spine and crank their SI joint open doing damage to the ligament structures. Yoga asana is made of right angles and the human body is made of curves and spirals. I am trying to help everyone I can to change asana to support natural design and hearing about more hip replacements makes me realize how important it is to educate others before they wind up with hip replacements too. Even standing with the feet together puts a lot of pressure on the pelvis. YogAlign gives people great posture and there is never any painful stretching in the process. I just spent 5 years writing a book about how to practice YogAlign and my website is full of information too. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. with aloha MIchaelle on Kauai, innovator of YogAlign, the pain-free yoga

[Diane]

Originally Posted by yogalign

I have practiced yoga forty years and started to have hip pain about 20 years ago so I stopped doing asana the 'traditional way" and innovated a style I now call YogAlign. It is based on yoga positions that simulate natural human design and biomechanics. We are NOT designed to bend over from standing or sitting with our feet together and our knees straight. Over and over people doing asana flex the lumbar spine and crank their SI joint open doing damage to the ligament structures. Yoga asana is made of right angles and the human body is made of curves and spirals. I am trying to help everyone I can to change asana to support natural design and hearing about more hip replacements makes me realize how important it is to educate others before they wind up with hip replacements too. Even standing with the feet together puts a lot of pressure on the pelvis. YogAlign gives people great posture and there is never any painful stretching in the process. I just spent 5 years writing a book about how to practice YogAlign and my website is full of information too. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. with aloha MIchaelle on Kauai, innovator of YogAlign, the pain-free yoga

Hello yogalign,
If you would like to join into discussion and defend your claim, please introduce yourself in our welcome forum, let us know about your passion there, first. Just so you know, we don't allow advertising, not without a great deal of deconstructing beforehand.