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Old 27-04-2007, 08:31 AM   #1
Diane
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Default Orthopathy - not a deep enough model

I saw this approach posted on EIM. I've seen it before, can't remember where. Looks like Barnes isn't the only empire builder interested only in fascia (and not any sensory nerves that may happen to convey through it, or what the neurodynamics/physiologic function of those might be).
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Seminar and Symposium are open to M.D.'s, D.O.'s, and International Osteopaths
Yet, apparently they are also teaching chiropractors this new and wonderful approach to treating the "six kinds of fascial distortion". This will no doubt add six more avenues for six new kinds of chiropractic brand name ©® sets of applications that cost $2000 per "level" x 5 levels each... let's see... 30 levels altogether, at 2000 each, that makes $60,000 potentially to add to the Human Primate Social Grooming economy.
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Old 27-04-2007, 11:19 AM   #2
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One phrase really grabbed me -
Quote:
tectonic fixations.
As one who is interested in tectonic movements, this is over the top. Whom are they kidding???

Next thing they will say that fascia has a brain.

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Old 28-04-2007, 04:05 AM   #3
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Interestingly enough, I worked for a lady in Austin, TX for less than one year who was apprenticing with Steve Typaldos early on. She was really out there, but I did not discover this fact until after I took the position. Combining extensive Upledger garbage therapy with this fascial distortion model, she convinced many wealthy Austinites that she had the answer to everyting. In addition, she also sold homeopathic remedies, magnets, and "nutritional" supplements (read multi-level marketing here). I met Steve once when he came to town along with an ex-opthamologist who had dedicated his career to the old German zoological theories of parasitic infections being the source of all ills. What a freak show! Steve, sadly enough, has passed on at a relatively young age, but apparently his misbegotten legacy lives on...
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Old 28-04-2007, 04:08 AM   #4
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Maybe it has to do with the potential 60,000 beans the system can raise for the estate. Per student. Who's going to let a system like this "fail" or deconstruct it through clinical reasoning plus knowledge base? Only intellectually honest people.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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Old 28-04-2007, 06:26 AM   #5
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I actually have the book if you want to know more....LOL

A DO in my area actually had taken 3 levels I think of this stuff and she got hold of the book for me. She showed me how alot of this is done and I have to tell you, I wouldn't have the strength for it. They actually use toilet bowl plungers for one of those types, can't remember now which one.

Anyways, I don't think she uses it anymore because she didn't have the time or strength for it. She is no longer in the area, so I'm not sure. I didn't think anyone else had heard of it before and then here it is.....LOL

I think she studied it in Alaska and of course was able to combine it with "site seeing."

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Old 28-04-2007, 06:49 AM   #6
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Toilet bowl plungers?
Good grief.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 28-04-2007, 06:55 AM   #7
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Yes, the strength issue is a significant. The extent of the deep pressure required for some of these techniques is exquisitely painful for the patient and not too easy on the therapist. The 1st CMC joint takes a lot of pressure. Crazy stuff. The concept seems intersting at first, but once you analyze it, it holds no water.
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Old 28-04-2007, 07:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
fascial distortion
I failed to find something that convinces on PubMed.
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Old 28-04-2007, 07:18 AM   #9
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Yet another treatment system for the "anatomy" as if living patients with intact nervous systems were corpses. Having worked on both kinds all month, I can assure everyone that the living have much more responsiveness, and you don't have to push anything at all to get anywhere.

How does a toilet plunger figure in?

Karie, can you look up in the book how a toilet plunger is used to treat a human being in pain? I imagine it used like moxiebustion cup or something, used to create a vacuum seal on some flat part of the body, or like an interferential cup but without any zappage.

Please, please tell me I'm wrong. Or please, please tell me that you were wrong, that you imagined the toilet plunger part, that it's not true after all.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 28-04-2007, 07:45 AM   #10
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The picture of a toilet plunger on somebody's spine or leg could be well worth drawing, including all the slurping sounds of mesodermal matter being sucked out of existence. I have to give it a go. (The drawing, that is, not the method)

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Old 28-04-2007, 08:14 AM   #11
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Nari,

You could caption your drawing - "How to make your patients feel like S..."
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Old 28-04-2007, 08:23 AM   #12
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Good one Luke.
Maybe "tectonic fixations" Nari mentioned are what the toilet plunger is needed for. Something really "constipated" about the plumbing within the tissues.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 28-04-2007, 09:06 AM   #13
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The problem with actual, live tectonic fixations is they often result in a huge shift and earthquakes. Taking that a step further, maybe it could be called:
Feel the earth move....

Yikes.

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Old 28-04-2007, 02:32 PM   #14
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Continuum distortions were referred to as either inverted or everted, I believe, indicating whether one needed to push them in or pull them out. Pulling out such a "distortion" required the use of a suction system such as one would find in an older snake bite kit. I never heard about toilet plungers, but the little suction devices used a plunger type system coupled with a plastic cup.
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Old 28-04-2007, 03:15 PM   #15
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Diane,

I'll look it up for you, but yes they really use the toilet bowl plungers, at least the teachers of the technique according to this DO. I remember a scleroderma type patient that was from Wisconsin that travelled to the instructor and then came to see her since she was closer. She sent him also to me for PT and he also told me the story of this instructor using toilet bowl plungers on him. He didn't mind it because it really loosened him up he said. I remember his tissue was weird in that the outer shell of his body was very restricted but you could sense the softness underneath. It wasn't the type that restricted within the organs, it was outer shell, so to speak.

Anyways, I will look it up; I did see her tools and she had the suction cup thingys I think krystos and Nari described earlier.

PT's can't go to the course by the way because they learn to reset the soft tissue around fractures and that's not in our scope of practice.

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Old 28-04-2007, 03:22 PM   #16
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Talking

Anything else anyone wants me to look up while I'm getting the book out...LOL

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Old 28-04-2007, 03:29 PM   #17
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I'm crushed that because I'm a PT I'm excluded from learning how to use a toilet plunger on a fracture to reset the soft tissue, or from "doctor only" forms of perceptual fantasy built on no logic but mesodermal. I get that my place in the human primate social grooming hierarchy is at the very bottom. I'll have to learn to be ok with that I guess.

I'll resign myself to using only my hands and wits and understanding of the nervous system and clinical reasoning, and learn how not to be disappointed that I can't go to these workshops and learn to use toilet plungers to treat six kinds of fascial tectonic plate disorders.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 28-04-2007, 08:21 PM   #18
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Here ya go Diane regarding the plunger, and Nari I think this fits into your thought processes as well.

If this is considered a copyright issue, please remove or put in the Sounds of Silence section Diane, whatever you think is best.

By the way in this manual there are no references in, or at the back, to research of any kind to support. I find that interesting. Maybe that was given out separately in the class????

Chapter 8
Tectonic Fixations and Tectonic Technique

("Clinical and Theoretical Application of the Fascial Distortion Model Within the Practice of Medicine and Surgery." by Stephen Typaldos, D.O.)

"The sixth described principal fascial distortion type is the tectonic fixation. It is defined as a physiological alteration in which the fascial surface has lost its ability to properly glide. Since fixated fascial surfaces can occur in any joint in the body as well as the viscera, tectonic fixations are common and widespread. Physically the non-gliding surfaces of a tectonic fixation behave almost as if they were two magnets attracting each other. As the name of the distortion implies, fascial surfaces stuck to each other are reminiscent of geological plates of the Earth's crust jammed together."

"The fixation itself occurs secondary to loss of synovial fluid transport between two structures. With less synovial fluid recycling through the joint, the magnetic field changes and the fascia loses its ability to repel the adjacent tissue, and instead attracts it. This flip-flopping of the magnetic field is analogous to that of a magnet that when turned over changes from repelling another magnet to attracting it."

"In treating tectonic fixations the goals are:
1. Correct any other fascial distortions (particularly triggerbands with adhesions and folding distortions)
2. Increase synovial fluid circulation (slow tectonic pump, hot packs, plunger technique)
3. Re-initiate gliding by physically forcing fixated surfaces to slide (thrusting tectonic techniques such as frogleg and reverse frogleg manipulations, brute force maneuvers, and Kirksville crunch)"

"Once the stuck structures are budged, some tectonic fixations are instantaneously resolved (this is particularly true of facet tectonic fixations), while for more long-standing conditions, multiple treatments are required. In the most severe cases, stagnant synovial fluid degrades from a clear colorless liquid into a thick white paste. In this condition, resolution occurs only when enough fresh synovial fluid is pumped between the fixated surfaces (and the stagnant fluid is flushed out and reabsorbed) to cause the magnetic field to flip again so that the surfaces once more repel each other."

"Three tectonic fixations of primary interest to the general orthopedist are:
1. Shoulder
2. Hip
3. Facet "

This was page 53.
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Old 28-04-2007, 08:42 PM   #19
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Good grief! Thanks Karie, this is hilarious except there are likely earnest young practitioners paying big bucks to learn this stuff/to wield the mighty toilet plunger on tissue as we speak!

(BTW, there's no worry about copyright - short passages quoted with page number and name of book to illustrate a point are fine.)

Oh my GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG- ....GAG!
No references?? I wonder why not. Could it be because no one else could make it up this good?

Sounds like chiro type subluxation theory, spread to the next joints out from the spine. Get in there and crack those tectonic plates open as best you can. Suck fluid back in there with the plunger. "Brute force maneuvers"? Ignore the fact there's a live nervous system embedded in there.
It's way worse than I could have imagined.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

Last edited by Diane; 28-04-2007 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
I saw this approach posted on EIM. I've seen it before, can't remember where. Looks like Barnes isn't the only empire builder interested only in fascia (and not any sensory nerves that may happen to convey through it, or what the neurodynamics/physiologic function of those might be).
Is there a link also from EIM i couldn't find the thread there about Orthopathy.

Btw I learned some stuff from an Osteopath. Very painful way of treating. He treated me once and I had a big blue spot. Ouch . But it can be also effective just the explanations are not up to date with neuroscience.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:55 AM   #21
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Baecker, it's buried in the l-o-n-g thread about a chiropractic perspective, somewhere close to the end.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 03-05-2007, 03:19 PM   #22
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Baecker, here's a link to the thread.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:49 PM   #23
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I was recently told about this thread. Unfortunately none of you were able to observe Dr StephenTypaldos perform an FDM treatment and the immediate and lasting results. Sadly, none of you had the opportunity to meet Dr Typaldos and so do not comprehend the brilliance and kindness that formed the basis for his developments. As far as the Austin PT, Airrosti, you may not know that she plagerized his work, distorted and watered down his treatments, and forced practioners to sign an agreement to keep these "trade secrets".
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:00 PM   #24
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Hi Ann,
Apart from the kindness and niceness and brilliance you personally observed, did the good chiro leave behind anything that actually measured:
1. the efficacy of the treatment (compared to other kinds of manual approaches, or manual approaches combined with exercise, perhaps)
2. the length of time the results lasted compared to anything else?

If not, too bad. I doubt there is any point in supporting the concept behind a treatment approach that uses toilet plungers on live people.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:39 PM   #25
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"It was Dr. Typaldos' desire that the Fascial Distortion Model not only revolutionize the treatment of musculoskeletal injuries, but that it would also revitalize medicine by providing new insight into cardiology, internal medicine and neurology."

This part was the funniest. Seems there are enough insights in these fields already to keep them interesting. Far more profound than fascial distortion no doubt.

I think the correct term was re-"vitalize".
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Old 13-08-2008, 12:02 AM   #26
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plungers are used as cupping tools to lift the tissue in a more uniform fashion. Diane you would call it a skin lift. Plungers are less tiring to use for the practioner and do provide a good lift to the tissue. I am totally unfimialiar with the gentlemen in this discussion but have used plungers, soft silicon ones from target, to get good results for mobility increase and pain relief over the sacrum. the "traditional" skin rolling and lifting techniques are too painful for some and the plunger is tolerated better. breast pumps can also be used.
The german hickey machine, stim with suction , marketed this technique. Results are good, mechanism still up for debate. Yes I do know that nerves communicate thru fascia and I do believe that fascia communicates as well. The cellular consciousness exists and communicates also in my opinion. Black and white are nice colors, but there are a variety of flavors in the bodywork rainbow. That being said i will retreat into my neural tunnel composed of fascia and rest while the bombs explode.
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Old 13-08-2008, 12:14 AM   #27
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The german hickey machine,


rofl
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Old 13-08-2008, 01:54 PM   #28
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Bob, yes - I can hear the conscious skin cells talking to each other now: "Wow, that German gizmo REALLY sucks, doesn't it?"
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Old 13-08-2008, 07:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bas View Post
Bob, yes - I can hear the conscious skin cells talking to each other now: "Wow, that German gizmo REALLY sucks, doesn't it?"
that made me really laugh!
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Old 14-08-2008, 03:49 AM   #30
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I am totally unfimialiar with the gentlemen in this discussion but have used plungers, soft silicon ones from target, to get good results for mobility increase and pain relief over the sacrum.
Bob,
Your lack of economy with language seems to mirror your treatment approaches. Why is it necessary or even desirable to pull out these weird, potentially harmful gizmos when a good pair of hands attached to a thoughtful clinician will suffice?

Skin rolling techniques painful? For whom, patient or therapist? If it hurts the therapist to roll skin, then I suspect the patient also suffers on some level. Moral: don't roll skin.

Bas and Luke, you guys are cracking me up!
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Old 14-08-2008, 06:18 AM   #31
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...and I can also hear the conscious cells muttering amongst themselves: What the h--- is this guy doing to us??

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Old 14-08-2008, 12:34 PM   #32
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Painful for the patient John. Skin which has lost its mobility and doesn't glide over the sacrum responds well to the gentle lifting technique provided by the small 3 inch sink plunger. The therapist is able to treat a larger surface area for a longer period of time without eliciting a protective reaction from the patient. The plunger is a complimentary tool which is still guided by a great pair of hands and an uncanny sense of what is happening beneath them.

Pressures remain light throughout the treatment. Nari---Have you ever lifted the skin and held it with slight traction? What was the body muttering to you?

The myopic and caustic opinions by some on this sight who have no experience with certain treatment approaches at times really makes me wonder what this and the other forums do for your egos.
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Old 14-08-2008, 01:39 PM   #33
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Your choice of words is very apt: "uncanny" - indeed.

And what do forums do for my ego? Don't know, but some threads do nothing good for my skin. You get close with that silicone plunger and I will whip out my Ukrainian Fascial Release Manipulative Implement - made of bamboo and $7.00 at the kitchen section - the ladle bin. I can really facilitate exquisite neural input of the gluteal area with no more than 12 flicks of the wrist with this revolutionary tool.

Myopic. I admit, I WAS winking when I wrote my post....

Caustic. Not at all - this is just lubricant. Makes the tight fascia of some people slide better over their funny bone - well-known to be really stuck in some poor folks; restricted by suppressed energy from unexpressed laughter at themselves.
Caustic is much, much nastier....

Lovely retort, Bob.
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Old 14-08-2008, 02:51 PM   #34
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What works for exquisitely painful skin over sacrums is to hold one's hand in gentle contact with it while the patient is positioned comfortably in sidelying.

One hopes that this skin will eventually slide down toward the coccyx, but one is in absolutely no hurry to accomplish this task. One sits there unmoving for several minutes, perhaps 15 or 20 if necessary. One sits there still and unmoving as if one had all day long to just sit.

The other hand can be placed on the midback, on the skin over the spinous processes, waiting.

One wants to feel a sense of "thickening" in the skin, a sense that it has suddenly become more elastic, all on its own, before provoking it in any form of stretch. When it's ready though, it will feel as though it moves all on its own. There will be no need to physically stretch it. The skin will increase in volume, thickness, and will feel as though it expands on its own, traveling down over the sacrum and up along the back. It isn't, really, it's just the perceptual fantasy one feels through the hands; because if you look, you can see nothing, no movement. But when you feel this perceptual fantasy with your own kinesthetic senses, you can "know" the skin has moved toward being more "normal." In your own mind you can allow the paradox to exist. Why? Because the patient will move better, and if you retest the skin, you will find it will move better as well.

No need for German hickey machines.
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Old 14-08-2008, 03:28 PM   #35
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This French one is ofyten cited as a good tool...
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Old 14-08-2008, 04:10 PM   #36
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Was the patient able to control the device himself? I could see it being a bit useful in that case.. and if the therapist's hand was fractured or something..
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Old 14-08-2008, 04:16 PM   #37
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Bas, I was not referring to your post. I thought it was funny.

Diane, you have just described a technique taught by John Barnes for sacral mobility and ROM increase. I have sat unmoving with clients for up to an hour and yes I can sense the softening under my hands as things let go. There is only so many ways to handle a body and it is the response to the handling which is important. That is one reason why I no longer do HVLA manips of any kind.
The results of my handling techniques are very good for return to function and pain relief. The reasons for the results are what is in question by most on this forum.
BTW I do not even have a plunger in my office let alone a german hickey machine.
I communicate thru touch which has been my treatment of choice since 1986, still is and will always be. I do give the nervous system credit, because it is part of the whole. You may like to believe you can separate the patients who come thru your door in to parts, but it is a fallacy.
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Old 14-08-2008, 04:35 PM   #38
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You may like to believe you can separate the patients who come thru your door in to parts, but it is a fallacy.
It is only your belief that I do that. It's impossible to effect in reality anyway, so your accusation is groundless.
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you have just described a technique taught by John Barnes for sacral mobility and ROM increase.
To that I say, so what? Do you think he owns the only pair of hands in the universe? Any pair of hands can come up with that, if they work with people long enough. Actually, Barnes might be proof of that.
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Old 14-08-2008, 04:44 PM   #39
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Exactly, there are only so many ways to handle a client...........outcomes are the result....I am not criticizing or critiqueing you Diane. You do seem to promote that the mesoderm is just a mindless blob of tissue entirely dependent on the ectoderm unless i have missed your points in the numerous posts I have read regarding the evolution of the human primate. I still hold on to my beliefs grounded in intelligent design. That being said, I do not question your results from gentle handiling, I have been getting them since 1986.
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Old 14-08-2008, 06:02 PM   #40
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Intelligent design? Really? That explains so much.

Of course we are aware that there are mechanisms for change that are both plausible and unknown, and we continue to search for them, share them and discuss them. It's when we've made the case that certain mechanisms are biologically implausible, physically impossible and potentially harmful that we run into conflict with the Barnes adherents. They behave as if to relinquish an idea of His (the capitalization is intended for effect), no matter how how goofy, is some sort of betrayal and they hang on to all of them like grim death.

No new ideas, no discussion, no argument, no progress, no science. "Repeat every course over and over," they say. "You'll learn more every time." Why would that be? Several reasons come to mind, and none speak well of the method or the teaching.
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