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Old 09-04-2008, 05:15 PM   #1
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jkjk

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Old 09-04-2008, 05:17 PM   #2
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Oh my gosh - we've got stuff here. Let's help Mike as fast as we can. Mike, start by using the search function here, top right side of the banner, beside "quick links". Type in the word quantum, and find all the threads with that word in them. That will get you started.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:26 PM   #3
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Also, visit Physiotalk, a board that was started in Canada by a disgruntled PT specifically to deconstruct "Matrix Repatterning" (a chiro thing that George Roth has been selling for years). Here's a link to a thread about it. You might find quite a bit over there actually.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:30 PM   #4
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Here's a blogpost from Science-based medicine about "quantum touch".
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:31 PM   #5
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Mike,

Here's an easy way.

Tell her she can have free access to all your patients if she can reproduce the rose trick under controlled conditions (she could also win a cool $Mil from Randy). Why don't you take a bunch of roses to the meeting?
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
When the practitioner holds a high vibrational field of life-force energy around an affected area, she or he facilitates healing through the process of resonance and entrainment.
Ridiculous. An atom vibrates at frequencies that are far outside our vibration sensitivity.

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000...frequency.html
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Old 10-04-2008, 04:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesangster View Post
Hi all,

Looking for a bit of help here... I have been asked to meet with a Nursing student who is doing her masters thesis on the use of Quantum Touch... she is hoping to work with my chronic pain kids (not a chance)... Mike

What would be the harm to allow her to work with your kids?
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:02 AM   #8
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What would be the harm to allow her to work with your kids?
Oh.. I don't know.. contribute to pseudo and antiscience? Set pain research and awareness of it back a few years? Let baseless ideas continue to infect our profession?
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:47 AM   #9
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The Overcoming Bias blog is hosting a series of blog entries designed to help people understand quantum mechanics.

Maybe it will work.
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:50 AM   #10
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I'm curious as to what institution gave permission for a Master's in Q Touch in the first place.

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Old 10-04-2008, 02:03 PM   #11
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Mike,

Now we're getting somewhere.

Let me restate bob's question and tell me if this is fair:

What would be the harm of bringing in a witch doctor who had never learned anything about the way the body or the world actually works but had great faith in pre-Hippocratic supernaturalism and had a very pleasing way about him?

It couldn't hurt - could it?
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Mike,

Let me restate bob's question and tell me if this is fair:

What would be the harm of bringing in a witch doctor
I thought it was a masters level nursing student.

Quote:

who had never learned anything about the way the body or the world actually works
She probably has had basic sciences, anatomy, physiology, pharmacology. I would believe she had a knowledge of the body.

Quote:
but had great faith in pre-Hippocratic supernaturalism and had a very pleasing way about him?

It couldn't hurt - could it?
I would think she has a belief in the human spirit and intangibles which go along with that aspect of human function and recovery.


So Mr. Dorko I think your rephrasing was not fair but lavished and embellished with your beliefs. Perhaps that question would fly on Mercury but not in an open forum debate.

Things happen frequently in the medical world which defy explanation. My best friends father lived 22 years with oats cell lung cancer after the MD's had given him 2 months tops as one example.
The presentation of the nurse could be just that she is going to do some light touch and soothing massage for the painful children. I bet she would not need to describe what she believed was happening to the child. It would be a great blind clinical study properly presented. You could then draw conclusions from the results of her treatment. The worst that could happen is nothing. The other alternative would be something would happen.
I am at least pleased that you agreed to meet with her.
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmfrptx
I would think she has a belief in the human spirit and intangibles which go along with that aspect of human function and recovery.
Intangibles things that go along with recovery? What things?
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Things happen frequently in the medical world which defy explanation.
I doubt very much that it is a frequent happening (depending on your definition of "frequent") in the medical world that "things" literally defy explanation--defy expectations perhaps but not explanation. When something does defy explanation what is the point of simply making up an explanation, especially one that defies any ability to be verified?

The first part of that last question is largely rhetorical because I have a good feeling why we (yes, me too) make up explanations.
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Old 10-04-2008, 08:05 PM   #15
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I think your rephrasing was not fair but lavished and embellished with your beliefs.
Some beliefs are actually based on something, whereas other beliefs are based on nothing. And furthermore, some beliefs based on nothing are deliberately floated. Those beliefs do not deserve a place on this forum.
Quote:
Perhaps that question would fly on Mercury but not in an open forum debate.
Since when do you think debates (in this forum) can be based on beliefs which are in turn based on nothing? Go to some other forum bob, to bebate baseless beliefs. This isn't the right place. I'm with Barrett and Mike here.
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:49 PM   #16
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And BOB, her nursing education has absolutely no bearing on her applying "quantum touch" - so the comparison with the witch doctor is just fine.

It is obvious from many posts from the PTs at the MFR blog that their good university education had fallen on deaf ears - any of their claims and theories (and of QT as well) are just...well, you know what I think of those. And what science says of those.

Now - it is time for an accusation of not having an open mind, or maybe of being cruel and unfeeling, or maybe of not being spiritual enough.

Go ahead, make my day.
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Old 10-04-2008, 10:02 PM   #17
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Bas,

You forgot the ever popular "I feel violated."

Talking to bob is a waste of time. He and many of the colleagues in the MFR world he holds dear feel no responsibility to their profession's image and, it seems, no guilt when it comes to billing a vulnerable patient searching for help from what they presume is a professional.
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Old 10-04-2008, 10:39 PM   #18
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Hi Mike,

Indeed this is bullshit with a cap. B
Just read the thread
B. Bob is waste of time indeed

Looked at the quantumsite and didn't
had to read any cos one can see (I can; I hope)
if someone is tryin to B.sh#tt#n you with a
new treatment that cures all.

Remedy for these students knocking on your door
Let them send 10 RCT's proofing their method
or better review from Cochrane lib.


cheers
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Old 10-04-2008, 10:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
no guilt when it comes to billing a vulnerable patient searching for help from what they presume is a professional.
I have practised in my current town for 6 months now, and find myself more and more helping out messed up and ripped-off patients that comes out of the chiro mill. They even advertise that the patients well being is always the main focus. It makes me furious There are rotten apples in every profession, but this is what I see many times a week.
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Bas,



He and many of the colleagues ......... feel no responsibility to their profession's image and, it seems, no guilt when it comes to billing a vulnerable patient searching for help from what they presume is a professional.

barrett
Are you suggesting that I am committing something unethical by treating my clients with treatments other than the ones you use?
I utilize all aspects of my physical therapy university education as well as over 2500 hours of continuing education. My clients get desired results in an average of 8 to 10 visits.
I have a waiting list and referrals from all over the state. How's your private practice doing?
I personally feel responsible for my clients well being and financial gain is not my motivation. I have plenty of pro bono cases. So, before you choose to stereotype next time check the facts .
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:37 AM   #21
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Bob, I do not believe that a huge waiting list is necessarily a sign of great care. I know of several PT's in my area that have a fantastic reputation and a long wait list, but unimpressive track record when dealing with chronic pain patients. This is not to say that you are ineffective in your interventions. If you are getting results it is likely that you are communicating with the nervous system effectively. However, on soma, it is expected that you argue the "why" behind "what" you do. In the case of Quantum touch, the "why" is sorely lacking and unreasonable explanations will only hurt further progress in understanding chronic pain patients. I have always felt that understanding correctly gives greater freedom in practice. It does not box someone in. I often get the impression that when people argue for a specific technique (MFR/Quantum touch etc) and the freedom it affords the intangibles of human spirit, they really have no idea of what is happening. Not knowing is not necessarily unprofessional, it is in not trying to know or not changing explanations to reflect better understanding that is unprofessional.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:40 AM   #22
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I didn't think it would take long before you accused me of saying you were personally unethical despite the fact that I have done nothing of the sort.

I couldn't care less how successful you've been and I'm unimpressed. The subject here is the provision of care with a rational theory and what happens when therapists think that's unimportant. You seem unable to get that.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:01 AM   #23
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I didn't think it would take long before you accused me of saying you were personally unethical despite the fact that I have done nothing of the sort.
Suggesting guilt feelings for billing patients seems to imply wrong doing. Or did I read that wrong when you lumped me in with many colleagues?
I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you a question. Did you notice the question mark at the end of the sentence? I guess you have answered my question in your manner with your reply.

ChristophB I did not argue for Quantum Touch. I had never heard of it until this thread. I just asked what would be the harm. It would prove Mike right if nothing happened. His other interventions could still be administered. But what if something did occur positively. Placebo would be the cry or could it lead to more research? Or would the handling techniques mimic DNM?
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:18 AM   #24
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ChristophB I did not argue for Quantum Touch. I had never heard of it until this thread. I just asked what would be the harm. It would prove Mike right if nothing happened. His other interventions could still be administered. But what if something did occur positively. Placebo would be the cry or could it lead to more research? Or would the handling techniques mimic DNM?
I think you think you are being "objective", but you aren't - I think you are being obtuse.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:24 AM   #25
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It would prove Mike right if nothing happened.
Nothing would be proven either way as I see it. Even if it was successful it would not prove the validity of the method.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:32 AM   #26
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Quote:
Did you notice the question mark at the end of the sentence?
Since when does a question mark negate your implication? Pretty weak bob.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:12 AM   #27
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One last time Bob.
It is not good in any view of professional practice to let someone "try something" on people in pain or desperate.
However, to try something that has a reasonable, well-thought out explanation, and that does not require "beliefs", makes it an ethical (yes: ETHICAL) approach.
If you cannot see this, then yes - in my eyes you are practicing unethically. And denigrating MY profession. And I do not care a whiff how many patients you see or are waiting for you.
Jim Baker had a large following as well.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:13 AM   #28
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Well, I must say that is the first time that Bob recognizes placebo exists. And placebo is a neural process.
By the way, Bob stays focused on results and only results.
You must understand, Bob, that we have nothing against results but we reject unprovable, pseudo-scientific, non logical explanations.

Here is an example:
  1. Bob practices MFR.
  2. Bob gets results.
  3. Thus, MFR theory is proved.
Unfortunately, Bob, I'm waiting for some evidences in the theory (that are contradicted by known facts).

I just want you to criticize my points of view about energy medicine or microtubules. You didn't reply by the past but I'm patient.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Since when does a question mark negate your implication? Pretty weak bob.

As I mentioned barrett, you reply with your belief systems. If you believe I am implying something then its got to be true in your world.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar except in your mind.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:10 PM   #30
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Mike,

I hope you'll summarize your meeting here. It could be helpful for others finding themselves in a similar situation.

When is the meeting? We haven't spent much time deconstructing yet.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:12 PM   #31
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Well, I must say that is the first time that Bob recognizes placebo exists. And placebo is a neural process.
By the way, Bob stays focused on results and only results.
You must understand, Bob, that we have nothing against results but we reject unprovable, pseudo-scientific, non logical explanations.

Here is an example:
  1. Bob practices MFR.
  2. Bob gets results.
  3. Thus, MFR theory is proved.
Unfortunately, Bob, I'm waiting for some evidences in the theory (that are contradicted by known facts).

I just want you to criticize my points of view about energy medicine or microtubules. You didn't reply by the past but I'm patient.
Bernard
I agree with 1 and 2. As for 3 it proves that the JFB MFR approach gets results. The scientifically theoretical proof is pending. Will it involve the nervous system? Sure. But there will be more involved than just the Brain. Look at the April Discover magazine article on Autism for example.
I do not feel any need to criticize your energy points of view.
The microtubules do have a significant effect on cellular function and development early in embryology. Even prior to development of the neural fold. See these studies. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1616441
http://www.nae.edu/NAE/bridgecom.nsf...ks/MKEZ-65RHQL

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...8adcfa406225b3

What would shut this communication off when we are fully developed and why?
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:24 PM   #32
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Sorry Bob, but your papers do not bring any relation with energy or fascia.
Since I'm unable to find the motor of the MFR theory and because you're "graduate" of the JB MFR, please give us the "fuel" and "engine" !
BTW, I'm not sure to see a relation with the dynein and drosophila...
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:30 PM   #33
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What would shut this communication off when we are fully developed and why?
Let me guess. Myofascial restrictions producing crushing tensile pressures of approximately 2,000 psi acting as a straightjacket on muscles, nerves, bloodvessels, bones and even microtubules.

Or a lack of love.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:50 PM   #34
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I actually read the articles you linked for us, Bob.
And for the life of me, I do not see a darn thing that has ANY relationship with the issues of microtubules as they pertain to JBMFR claims.

It really is too bad that you maintain your stubborn ignorance of good scientific explanations for your great outcomes. You can still believe in whatever you like, be very spiritual and ooze with love for anyone, and STILL practice scientifically (without extravagant and pseudo-scientific woo-woo).
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:52 PM   #35
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The scientifically theoretical proof is pending. Will it involve the nervous system? Sure. But there will be more involved than just the Brain.
Newsflash Bob: the nervous system involves more than just the brain.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:08 PM   #36
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I too used to take a rather hard-line stance against such things as 'Quantum Touch', a phrase I had not heard prior to reading this thread.
However, as I grow both professionally and academically my attitude toward therapies akin to 'Quantum Touch' has softened.

The more I know, the more I realize I don't know, does that make sense?

I have no doubt such modalties 'work' or 'get results', I just don't attribute those successes to 'resonsance, vibration, or Quantum (fill-in-the-blank)'.
Often, it's not the therapy itself that is so quick to draw criticism,it's the convoluted explaination as to 'why'it seems to work.
I'd feel much more comfortable if a practitioner would merely say, "you know,
this type of treatment really seems to help kids with chronic pain, we're just not sure as to the exact mechansim."

Maybe Mike can expound on his team and the type of pediatric pain they most often care for. The pediatric
pain centers that I am familiar with all employ multidisciplinary-multimodal approaches. These include,
but are not limited to, acupuncture, TCM, guided imagery, self-hypnosis, biofeedback, prayer, etc.
The 'vibe' (pun intended) I get from the Quantum website; their care probabaly doesn't differ all that much from
other types of 'healing-touch' or 'guided-imagery' therapies already in place at various pediatric pain
management centers.
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