SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22-10-2008, 05:15 PM   #51
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,962
Thanks: 189
Thanked 217 Times in 97 Posts
Default

Bernard

Franchement, très éloquent, je vais utiliser cette photo avec les plus fervents convaincus de la véracité des logiques habituelles de la thérapie manuelle.

Very eloquent ! Will use the picture with fellow practionner all too conviced about usual OMT logic.

Frédéric
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2008, 05:17 PM   #52
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,561
Thanks: 2,942
Thanked 6,064 Times in 2,742 Posts
Default

Now, ... if we could only get Ginger to believe this picture...
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2008, 05:22 PM   #53
bernard
Admin, Moderator...
 
bernard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: France
Age: 57
Posts: 12,304
Thanks: 660
Thanked 403 Times in 204 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Now, ... if we could only get Ginger to believe this picture...
But Diane, a picture doesn't work with blind persons.
__________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

bernard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2008, 02:44 AM   #54
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,962
Thanks: 189
Thanked 217 Times in 97 Posts
Default

http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6297

I felt it was of some pertinence to link to this thread as it references to the topic of the present discussion

Frédéric
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2008, 12:43 AM   #55
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,962
Thanks: 189
Thanked 217 Times in 97 Posts
Default Reply from FCAMT canadian examinator

Just went to my preparation class for my intermediate (part A) exam of the canadian academy of manipulative therapy.

I was speaking with the prof, a national examiner.

She truly acknowledges that there is a lot of neurophysiological effect with mobs and manips. On the issue at hand here : is changing connective tissu with mobs/manip possible ?

She says it doesn't mather for her if we are not streching in the microfailure region of the toe/creep/microfailure/macrofailure curve because what makes the change is more the tearing of the adhesions between adjacent layers of CT thus a lot less strain would be necessary to «brake» those adhesions. She also states, only mobs can't do it but there needs to be daily «streching in the affected ROM direction» exercices to make the change really happen.

So, just as we would strech an elastic 5 minutes every day, after weeks of this sort of streches the adhesion are either broken or elongated. Since those adhesion are not aligned in the direction of the applied load, their organisation would make them less resistent to strains.

Clever way of avoiding any of the conclusions from the Threkeld article. She thinks creep is happening but she seems to think it is not really a pre-requisite.

Well, any of my points did not seem to affect her beliefs whatsoever ! She was well aware of recent litterature both neurophysiological and manual therpy wise.

Just wanted to share her opinion (the examinor's) on the topic with you guys

Just as me, she is very opiniated, so... I wasn't really planning on changing her mind, just wanted to hear her side of the story.

GBye everyone

Frédéric
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2008, 04:54 AM   #56
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,962
Thanks: 189
Thanked 217 Times in 97 Posts
Default

i think this article would belong here
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 04:11 AM   #57
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,962
Thanks: 189
Thanked 217 Times in 97 Posts
Default

In answer to my own prior demands, I will post an article in the sound of silence that explains how a muscle is actually lenghtened, adding sarcomeres in series, by adaptation to the stress and not by any creep or plastic deformation effect.

So, any lenghtening of muscles will be the result of an adaptative process that require far more than two appointments a week of OMT. One could argue that if specific exercices are given to stress the tissu every day (it was shown that 3X30' a day is enough) that adaptation will occur. But as Lederman points out in his book, this is submitted to other potentially competitive adaptation processes. Once the therapy and daily exercices stop and the patient goes back to his normal activities, the tissue is very likely going to readapt back to it's old lenght.

It think it is only fair to assume the samekind of adaptation could occur for joint capsules and other CT. The amount and repetition of stress needed would probably change depending on the tissue caracteritics (elastine vs collagen ratios).


An other interesting part of the article relates to the fact that passive streches alone might not be enough but that active contractions and intact normal neural drive could also be necessary for the growth to take place.

My conclusion is this :

A patient with a badly affected fonction because of shorthened tissues following a trauma will benefit mechanically from the streches whereas stiffness in accessory motion (2ndary to life adaptation) in the spine where the fonction is not affected has very little chances to be improved by successfully lenghtening any tissues as the competitive adapation will most likely win the battle. Of course, that is assuming the stiffness is caused by actual shortening, but that is another issue.

So I guess on the right patients, and with a well designed exercice program, one can actually «remold» a CT, provided the fonction is impared and that, once recovered, the normal fonction will provide asound environment for the maintenance of the CT lenght.

So, as it was said before, the shaky mesodermal logic might hold «true» in patients who had a true injury with actual tissue damage and subsequent shorthening of CT (after immobilization for exemple) but will not work for insidious onset persistent pain problems where the stiffness is probably not because of actual shortening and where shortening if present is probably more a normal adaptative idiosyncratic state of the individual. In that case, it has nothing to do with the pain.


Lengthening of Muscle During Distraction Osteogenesis

Last edited by Frédéric; 09-03-2009 at 04:19 AM.
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
connective tissue signalling network. nari The Pharos of Alexandria 6 30-03-2006 07:02 AM
About connective/subcutaneous tissue junglelord General Discussion 14 02-02-2006 11:54 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014