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Old 04-01-2006, 06:39 AM   #51
Dave Vollmers
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Diane -

Sorry I'm getting there (sorry for the delay but you were next until I saw the response from Nari) and I'm gonna try your suggestion:

Quote:
Hi Dave,
Welcome to SS and to our rollicking little conversation!
I have a big interest in anatomical minutiae and am very interested in learning more about your experience. I agree that much that is potentially useful to know about gets burned off with preservation. Even in unembalmed cadavers, dead is really still, compared to alive organisms, isn't it?
I have a question or two about what you observed.
1. First, did you see/dissect/ examine skin ligaments, how they lie in there, which directions? and if so..
2. Did you examine any of the skin ligaments that are mini neural conduits?
3. Did you examine anyting about the skin layer itself or did you dive straight through it to get to the fascia?
4. If you did examine the microanatomy of the skin, as in under a microscope, were you able to observe/examine/appreciate all the innervation it carries?
Thank you.
Diane
my harvesting experiances were usually to take the spine, detach c1 from the occiput, take the shoulder girdle in it's intirety and the legs from the femoral head down. I will admit I'm not the best at using a microscope and I've never had the opportunity to utilize an electorn microscope. that being said I'm not sure what "skin ligaments" are and my anatomy books are at work so I'll try to look it up tomorrow between patients. If you are talking about the connective tissue located between the skin and superficial layer of the fascial system I can tell you that I've appreciated them during disections and harvesting (both white tail deer and human) but other than noticing how strong they are the only direction I've ever noticed was superficial to deep direction because if I pulled the skin up the connections would drag behind because of the weight of the body and superficial layer of the fascial system didn't move right away but if I waited the fascial system would move thereby shortening these connections and changing direction. AS for noticing innervation I've seen periferal nerves as well as capilaries reach through the fascia occasionally into the skin by way of these connections and just thought it was cool that the body encased these structures as a way to protect them as they reached the skin and the outside enviorment for either stimuli or as a means to cool down the blood.

I'll be on for alittle while yet so if you want to describe the skin ligaments to me that would be great and then I can let you know if I ever noticed them before.

Sorry to be vage

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Old 04-01-2006, 06:48 AM   #52
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Walt,
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As for Oschman's well researched work, dismissing it out of hand, as you have done, merely proves the point that any research or writings can be dismissed if you, yourself do not agree with them or feel they are invalid.
Well, I wouldn't use the word "feel" with the word "invalid." Something is either valid or it's invalid. I prefer to refer to books that I "know" have validity, Damasio, Melzack, Wall, Ramachandran, and many many more. "Feel" has nothing to do with deciding validity. Do you agree?
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:00 AM   #53
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It doesn’t appear at this point that we’re going to accomplish much more given the viewpoints in opposition. Walt seems to think that being openly critical of another’s ideas is inappropriate. It isn’t of course; it’s the way knowledge in science progresses. As I’ve said many times, this isn’t a tea party. By the way, I said I posted Dottie’s URL twice. I never said that I didn’t enter into a prolonged discussion about it.

But here’s the thing, buy his own admission Walt is not a scientist. He went to college and he has a license, but using scientific principles to treat patients with physical means-the definition of physical therapy-doesn’t evidently apply to MFR practitioners. There’s a certain convenience here, especially when you consider what Barnes’ students are asked to believe.

Ian Stevens in England recently suggested I read Science and Poetry by Mary Midgley. She points out that social scientists cannot use the methods available to physical scientists. What they often end up doing is philosophy, whether they notice it or not. During my years of observing the conversations on the MFR Chat I saw numerous references to MFR as something much more than a treatment approach but rather an entire way of seeing the universe and living our lives. Of course, this isn’t science, it is philosophy, and, in my opinion, not a good one-given all the “power animals,” “spirit guides,” “past lives” (intruding on this one) and “energy” involved. Some people like this stuff and feel it is an appropriate way of explaining what happens in the clinic, but they aren’t scientists.

The purpose of science is to make sense of things, not prove things. This distinction will always be lost on those who would prefer to believe rather than understand. In the end, belief is a whole lot easier.
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:22 AM   #54
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Thank you for your reply Dave. It's a start.
We have a paper here in the Sounds of Silence on skin ligaments.. You will be able to access it by being a member (which you already are), and getting a password. Bernard is the password provider.

Meanwhile here is an abstract.

Now guys.. let's cut to the chase, puhlease. Given that
1. skin covers the body,
2. is attached by all these ligaments,
3. which allow the skin to "float" sort of, on an underlying cushion of slippery subcutaneous fat,
4. is highly innervated,
5. derives from ectoderm, same as the nervous system,
6. contains (what is it Luke? 3.54 meters of nerve per square centimeter?) a huge amount of innervation,
7. nineteen percent of which is comprised of slow-adapting, type II mechanoreceptors that fire continuously to lateral stretch,
8. that the brain/skin are functionally, autonomically integrated (see Ian's post with the reference about unmyelinated afferents going straight to the insular cortex, just one example of a multiply-layered integrated system), sensory and motor
9. that the neuromatrix theory developed by Melzack and Wall, two great pain researchers, after decades of painstaking research, has yet to be superceded,
10. that the last two decades of brain research have pretty much turned our little Cartesian compost bin completely on its side,
11. presuming that you two guys are even remotely aware of any of this,

...my next question is, how can anyone who IS aware of any of this take any assertions made about MFR being something real, seriously?

I think the whole thing has been built on empty perceptual fantasy declared as something real, sort of the way the "bone out of place" theory of chiropractic was built over a hundred years ago. Such memes persist because perceptual fantasy is very persuasive. Perceptual fantasy can lead to "premature cognitive conclusion."

But I put it to you that you are using up a lot of energy trying to justify MFR when the basic premises themselves don't make any sense at all.

How come you guys take yourselves and anything about MFR, any assertions, any propositions, so seriously? You are promoting a belief system, that's all.

I'm sorry, you cannot actually bend, stretch, lengthen, reconfigure, smooth out, decontract or otherwise manipulate deep fascia though living skin on an aware person with a live intact functioning nervous system. It might feel as if you can, but it's perceptual fantasy based on the brain's attempt to either get away from you or to co-operate with you. That's all.

The brain is making output changes based on novel sensory input. I call this "neuromodulation," and I suggest to you that that particular term (free by the way, I don't charge anyone for it, or claim to have originated it, or sell it as a treatment system) is far more appropriate, based on reality, derives from what is truly known, and encompasses more actual basic science than is/does the term MFR.

Thank you for your attention.
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Last edited by Diane; 04-01-2006 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:43 AM   #55
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Hi All and welcome to our new members,

Just a point of view from a stubborn open minded administrator.
This topic is devoted to MFR and I do not clearly understand why some people try to oppose MFR to Simple Contact or anything else. That is not in the rules of the game.

I agree totally that our body is the "soul's mirror" and the basement where brain constructs emotions. That doesn't give us the conclusion that something is stored for duration in these places. It is was really the case, we certainly have found as we found them in brain some chemical changes in some cells. If it is was right, it would mean that creating a new but same emotion in our body need to be created over the precedent but because it exists an accomodation system embedded in brain it would need, at every new event, a quantity more important of chemicals. The system is against all economical principles known in Nature. The system is also divergent.

The number rule doesn't give any validity to any theory. Many ugly theories have been taught/used against/for millions persons but it doesn't prove they are/were valid.

Is it possible to discard that memories are stored in brain? It seems for me a simple and valid explanation since it is actually proved. It is also proved that acting on any sensitive part of a body is like touching a brain. Since brain is found, as the principal actor/receptor, it seems logical to think about some importance, there.
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:52 AM   #56
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Dave and Walt

I am not sure where this is taking us - words are the same but with different connotations. Never mind...

Re cadavers - I spent nearly two years doing full dissections, from entire body down to almost shreds. Standard for physiotherapy students in the Stone Ages in Queensland, Aust. I still maintain you learn NOTHING about the body's function, but gain a very good idea of where things are, how connected they are (which many still do not accept), and so on. Great for anatomy, as I said.

I think, at this stage, MFR seems to be based on quite shaky semantic grounds and does not sit comfortably with modern neuroscience. It all sounds rather spooky, especially how you described the 'safety' issue of the therapist having to 'let go' the receiver of MFR...sorry guys, this is science fiction, or at least science friction.
I am not in the least convinced that this is therapy which sits comfortably with modern physical therapy.

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Old 04-01-2006, 08:26 AM   #57
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Diane -

Thanks for entering this discussion you present with some valid points that I think are a wonderful start to help clarify some stuff. From what the abstract said and what you posted it appears that you are talking about a connective tissue that attaches the skin to the fascial system that is highly innervated both with nerves and blood vessels.

Now if I have this correct (I understand it is simplifying things a little but bare with me) than let me propose something to you. Take away your use of the word ligaments and replace it with the word fascia - both are considered connective tissue but depending on who you talk to it can mean many different things. In the end, if you would permit me, they are mearly words that either you or I have defined and may not mean the same thing to someone else thereby causing some major miscommunication.

I say this because if you accept my temporary change of words than I can then continue. If you take what you know about the innervation of the fascial system at the level of the skin is it than possible to say that when pressure is applied to the skin the body can have reactions ranging from interpreting temperature of the therapist's hands to triggering a response from deeper within the body. To accept this last part we have to accept that the body has many neuro connections that are formed to cause a memory or a predetermined pattern of behavior. Now if that is true than it is possible that by touching the skin of person a therapist may elicite a response that causes a patient to remember (very vividly) a past trauma and if during that memory the therapist suggests to the patient that the patient has survived that trauma that the brain many then see that response is no longer needed and therefore dismantale that neuro pathway?

Okay if you were able to make that leap then hang on. If the skin ligaments are actually what John Barnes says is fascia than is'nt it possible that these skin ligaments don't just connect the skin to the fascial system but run all the way through it and therefore innervating the fascial system that is, lets say, wrapped around the quadraceps muscles. Therefore this innervation that probably holds more information than our central nervous system can cause the quads to tighten based on a neuropathway that was formed because of a need to protect and contract the quads and therefore force the ASIS of the pelvis to drop anteriorly. Then, going back to the first assumption, once a therapist places gentle pressure on the skin it would cause the innervation to either decrease it's control (the gate therory) or remind the brain that this neuropathway isn't viable anymore and therefore cause the quads to release their tension and allow the ASIS of the pelvis to return to a "normal postural state".

Please understand what I've just done is to not challange your research but to ask you to consider another definition of what you are seeing as well as look at the system as a whole instead of just one part (on a 3-d basis not just linear). John Barnes truly only teaches therapists about the fascial system, how it's a 3-d web that everything goes through in and around and how we can see when it tightens up. Reasons for this tightening can be many different things ranging from blunt force trauma to emotion. Once he defines the fascial sytem and how it works for his model (keep in mind the words he uses may not be the same as your's but if you look at the definition you may find yourself changing the words he uses to words that work for you) he than teaches how to feel the restictions, apply gentle pressure and to wait for at least 1.5 to 2.0 minutes before the system "releases". Keep in mind that traditional therapy teaches to hold a stretch for 30 seconds to 1 minute and although the muscle fibers may release the fascial sytem that encases these muscles may not have and therefore any and all relief that a person gets from the tradtional stretch is only temporary. In the last 5 years of taking classes I have never heard John ask anyone to "believe" him. He has always said to people that he is mearly presenting an alternative way of viewing the body and how to treat it and it's up to the therapists to make the decision to utilize the techniques or not but he warnes us that once you start using this technique our patients will be requesting it because of the results we get. He has been right (at least in my experiance). The other two important concepts that John teaches is that our current model of teaching is to brainwash up into word worshiping, that is to say we are taught to memorize facts, figures and protocols; then to think that when a person doesn't get better it's because the patient didn't do their job or that they don't truly have a problem. John tries to teach people that you have to look past the symptoms and see the real cause, albet sometimes the cause is in a different place than the symptoms but once you treat the cause the patient experiances pernament relief of their symptoms. This is the consept that I would ask you to consider your skin ligaments as the fascial system and try to understand that the nerves aren't following the pathway of just the bones or muscles but that they may follow a direct path to the brain and therefore sometimes cross over other nerves causing links to other areas of the body and that these pathways may change based on the body's ability to adapt.


I would like to upload a picture of what I'm talking about but I'll have to do it tomorrow for the file is too big and I'm too tired to work on it so I'm off to bed.

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 08:56 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wollmers
I say this because if you accept my temporary change of words than I can then continue. If you take what you know about the innervation of the fascial system at the level of the skin is it than possible to say that when pressure is applied to the skin the body can have reactions ranging from interpreting temperature of the therapist's hands to triggering a response from deeper within the body. To accept this last part we have to accept that the body has many neuro connections that are formed to cause a memory or a predetermined pattern of behavior.
We are all accepting neuro connections but we are, all, knowing that all these neuro connections end/begin in brain.
Changing words does not change the neural networks. You seem to discard the importance of neural events in the scene.

A body without a brain is just flesh and a cadaver.
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:00 AM   #59
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Dave, it sounds like you may be trying to convince me that fascia is the nervous system, rather than merely conduit material for the thin threads of the nervous system. I can't buy that. Sorry. Fascia comes from mesoderm, and as far as I know, from embryology, and an partcular interest I have in cells, nerve cells trump mesoderm cells for being
a) fast conductors of information
b) high metabolism (nervous system is 2-3% of whole body mass, but uses 20% of the oxygen intake)
c) creators of movement, storers of "emotions" and "memories"

Fascia (along with muscles, smooth and striated, and other mesodermic structure) is the puppet of the nervous system; the nervous system is not in any way subservient to the fascial system. If you did a bit of reading outside John Barnes autobiography and Oschman's energy book, maybe some pain science research, you'd have heard of the neuromatrix theory by now.

PS: Ditto Bernard. The brain runs everything. The body is the blob at the bottom of the brain, not the other way round..
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Last edited by Diane; 04-01-2006 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:08 AM   #60
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What an interesting read this all makes.

Barrett, you make an excellent point about science being different from a belief system.

I don't know much about MFR, and based on what I have read here and elsewhere, regardless of what clinical outcomes are achieved (and I haven't seen any convincing scientific evidence to change my mind on it), if there isn't a good foundation to begin with (ie something that can be understood irrespective of belief) there isn't much to attract my attention to study it further. I suspect a lot of people with a scientific bent think the same. Great discussion anyway!

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Old 04-01-2006, 09:24 AM   #61
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hey Diane...you just stole my phrase about the Blob....

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Old 04-01-2006, 09:50 AM   #62
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Dave,

Quote:
As my mom has said "If everyone jumps off a bridge, does that make it right?" More plainly if you can convience alot of people (weather it be through skewed research or just via case studies) that a hypothesis is correct does that mean it is correct?
Firstly, are you suggesting that the entire international neuroscience community has jumped off the bridge and Barnes is standing at the top waving? Secondly, as Barrett points out, science is not a belief system, therefore it does not attempt to convince. BTW, did you listen to your mom?

Quote:
Emotion can be related to or a least grouped with stress. Think of how many people grind their teeth at night or tighten up their shoulders because of stress. This prolonged posture or abuse to the TMJ causes physical pain and malfunction. Yes you can argue that this emotion isn't stored in the body, however then explain why is it that although the stress/emotion has been removed ... and yet another stressor/emotion comes by and your body reacts the same exact way?
You have never heard of the subconscious!?


Walt,
Quote:
"A clinical encounter can be an empty experiential slate upon which both patients and practitioners may paint a picture of clinical success, even when the method is ineffective. Most maladies improve without treatment, placebo effects and regression to the mean may lead to improvements not directly caused by the treatment, and subjective validation may lead to imagined improvements where none exists". If we are to post citations and trust research, do we pick and choose which parts of the research to believe? These "trusted" researchers just invalidated all that we work for, as " most maladies improve without treatment". I hope that we all do not feel this is true, as we see the opposite in our treatment room every day.
Is there any evidence that it is not true? You've never had an ache that just went away, or an injury that healed on its own? Ask everyone you know if they've had such an experience - sounds like you'll be surprised. No, I'm not reading selectively - I stand by that statement and am fully cognizant of the magnitude of non-specific effects in my clinic. I don't find this thought a threat.


Regarding the answering of questions, I'd like to see the following ones answered -
From Jon:
1. If the patient pushes back but doesn't say anything in particular or anything at all, isn't it necessarily the therapist that interprets what that means and thus what happens next is the therapist's intent?
2. The patients you help improve. So at a minimum, some element of your therapeutic interaction is helping. Much of the improvement can likely be explained, plausibly, by our current understanding of pain physiology. Here's the part you can help me with. Why should I abandon these reasons and adopt a theory that seems to defy neurophysiology and may lead me to do more than is necessary and increase the risk of unintended consequences?

From me:
1. It clearly states in Barnes' book that evidence exists demonstrating that emotions, memories and trauma are stored in the fascia. Are we going to see these papers or not?
2. And a new one: It seems that in MFR the fascia has assumed most of the functions normally attributed to the brain and nervous system. What does John say about the brain? Is there any modern neuroscience in his work?

Thanks guys,
Luke

Last edited by Luke Rickards; 04-01-2006 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:48 AM   #63
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Dave,

Quote:
'Most maladies improve without treatment'

Highly probable; take note of the word 'most'....we see the ones who don't improve spontaneously; and this may occur for any number of reasons that a psychologist or sociologist might have answers for.

One of the amazing assumptions made by therapists (and I include everyone who sits under the broad umbrella of 'therapy') is that what they actually DO in their Rx rooms is what actually gets the patient better.
This thinking tends to breed gurus and disciples who will protect their castle by any means at their disposal, including dodgy science. If one believes strongly enough, the line between science and mysticism, fact and fiction becomes blurry and interchangeable.
Philosophers sometimes seem to have a licence for merging possibilities with impossibilities; but scientists don't have that luxury. They have data and hypotheses which they attempt to prove or disprove (a la Einstein), but all are based on a few laws and zillions of theories, which emerge from an understanding of the natural world at the time. When other data surfaces, they review and revise their work.

I would suggest that the data used in spreading the word of MFR needs a very thorough dissection and perhaps some discarding in favour of new data...

Cheers

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Old 04-01-2006, 12:38 PM   #64
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Thanks all, for a spirited thread!

Walt, out of many aspects on this thread, one line jumped out at me:
"Reference - Katake, K. the strength for tension and bursting of human fascae, J. Kyoto Pref. Med. Univ., 69: 484-488, 1961. old research, but it shows that fascia has an average tensile strength of 1980 lbs per su. inch. This could certainly hold a right hemipelvis in anterior rotation."

That is a lot of strength - How do you (or the theory of MFR) propose that gentle, manual sustained stress can have any effect on this?
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Old 04-01-2006, 02:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
fascia has an average tensile strength of 1980 lbs per su. inch. This could certainly hold a right hemipelvis in anterior rotation."

That is a lot of strength - How do you (or the theory of MFR) propose that gentle, manual sustained stress can have any effect on this?
Good point Bas!

Quote:
hey Diane...you just stole my phrase about the Blob....
Sorry about having stole your line Nari, without crediting you for it. Everyone, that's Nari's line.

Dave and Walt, I forgot to mention David Butler's The Sensitive Nervous System. Mandatory reading. He doesn't tell people what techniques to use, he simply explains neurophysiology. He's a PT BTW.. I think we are here in one way or another at this site because of his book.

Another thing: science rules out other possibilities first before arriving at a conclusion. Ever heard of Occam's Razor? A scientific mind does the same thing, or "premature cognitive conclusions" become foisted upon the world and as memes, replicate for better or worse. Bearing that in mind, I'd like to see the promotors and teachers and conceptualizers of MFR rule out the nervous system as a factor in pain, movement dysfunction, sensory input through skin, improvement through treatment, first... before I'd consider accepting their thesis that fascia is somehow more important than being merely a bungee cord system that holds the body together with cellular "glue" (i.e. integrins) or that I can affect such a system directly, and not through the nervous system.

Dave, you're an OT! I thought OTs were all about the brain!
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Old 04-01-2006, 03:11 PM   #66
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Old 04-01-2006, 03:14 PM   #67
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Good one Bernard! (You are cracking jokes/making puns in English. I'm impressed!)
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Old 04-01-2006, 03:24 PM   #68
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I have very good teachers!!!
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Old 04-01-2006, 04:40 PM   #69
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Luke, I just had a chance to read through your link on cranial, in a long ago post. Thanks so much for including it.
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS
Over time, science-based disciplines expand their bases
of understanding and utility. Cranial osteopathy has not
done so. Its advocates still proffer: (1) the same biologically
untenable mechanism proposed by Sutherland 65
years ago, (2) no indication of diagnostic reliability, and
(3) no properly controlled research showing efficacy.
After many years, practitioners of cranial osteopathy, including
King and Lay, have provided little evidential
support for their many claims. These facts should lead to
an extensive revision of this chapter or to its removal
from the next edition of the Foundations for Osteopathic
Medicine.
If osteopathy is willing to prune back its fallacious memes in the light of current available research, so should PT be willing to prune back its fallacious memes too, and not assist them by passing them on for $.
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Old 04-01-2006, 04:56 PM   #70
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Diane -

I think I may have been a wee bit too tired when I posted and didn't get my point across. I'm not saying the fascial system is the nervous system anymore than you would say that the skin ligaments are. According to what I read in your abstract it appears that the skin ligaments mearly house or allow nerves to pass through and provide support much like any other part of the body that nerves travel through. The point I'm trying to make is that what you are terming as skin ligmaments sound the same as what John Barnes is defining as fascia.

Let me quote from John's book "Search for Excellance" where he describes what the fascia (connective tissue) is made of. "Connective tissue is composed of collagen, elastin and the polysaccharide gel complex, or ground substance....It's main componets [ground substance] are hyaluronic acid and proteoglycan." (this definition is referenced from Hall D. The aging of connective tissue exp. Gerontology. 1968; 3:77-89

If skin ligaments are made up of the same components than I think we have some common ground to talk with and this is were my post was trying to go.

In regards to
Quote:
that fascia is the nervous system,
I want to quote another part of that same text "As described by Scott, the fascia serves a major purpose in that it permits the body to retain its normal shape and thus maintain the vital organs in their correct position" (referenced to: Scott J. Molecules that keep you in shape. New Scientist 1986; 111:49-53)

This shows my first comment that I am not saying that the fascia is the nervous system only that it houses it and allows if to take the paths that it takes.

Just a comment - I know it's petty and will only envoke a negative response - but I only say it to put the question out there, so please don't take offense for I don't plan on debating the topic of the importance of the brain but if
Quote:
A body without a brain is just flesh and a cadaver.
than how do explain to a loved one that their clinically brain dead spouse/parent is being kept alive by machines. Or do you take the low road and just tell them that their loved on is just a cadaver. (I may regret this latter so please forgive me if it causes a backlash and I don't respond cause I'm not looking for a fight)
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:06 PM   #71
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Dave,

I'll take no offense about the last sentence but without the external machinery, have these human beings some chance to live?
Have they a chance to say something or feel something we may recognize (a facial expression)?

It remains a dramatic situation where all actors have difficulties to move freely.

Is there a chance that a paralysed limb may be cured/treated by MFR?
Just take some minutes to think about this riddle?
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:14 PM   #72
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Hi Dave,
Quote:
Diane -

I think I may have been a wee bit too tired when I posted and didn't get my point across. I'm not saying the fascial system is the nervous system anymore than you would say that the skin ligaments are. According to what I read in your abstract it appears that the skin ligaments mearly house or allow nerves to pass through and provide support much like any other part of the body that nerves travel through. The point I'm trying to make is that what you are terming as skin ligmaments sound the same as what John Barnes is defining as fascia.
OK, point accepted.

Quote:
Let me quote from John's book "Search for Excellance"
(well, ...ok... if we must go there.. )

Quote:
..where he describes what the fascia (connective tissue) is made of. "Connective tissue is composed of collagen, elastin and the polysaccharide gel complex, or ground substance....It's main componets [ground substance] are hyaluronic acid and proteoglycan." (this definition is referenced from Hall D. The aging of connective tissue exp. Gerontology. 1968; 3:77-89
..I know.. (so your point is)...

Quote:
If skin ligaments are made up of the same components than I think we have some common ground to talk with and this is were my post was trying to go.
OK, point accepted..

Quote:
In regards to
Quote:
that fascia is the nervous system,
I want to quote another part of that same text "As described by Scott, the fascia serves a major purpose in that it permits the body to retain its normal shape and thus maintain the vital organs in their correct position" (referenced to: Scott J. Molecules that keep you in shape. New Scientist 1986; 111:49-53)
Hmmnn.. I'm getting lost a bit.. how did we end up here? I asserted that the nervous system is in charge of the behavior of mesoderm. Are you still trying to say that the mesoderm is in charge of the nervous system/motor behavior?

Quote:
This shows my first comment that I am not saying that the fascia is the nervous system only that it houses it and allows if to take the paths that it takes.
Agree on this point.. to a point. Nerves can actually "plow" through mesoderm to get to where they want to go.

Bring it on Dave, bring it on. Keep trying to convince me that fascia is more important than the nervous system and dictates memories, emotions, their storage, that it can be manipulated from outside the skin layer somehow, even if this assertion requires a leap of faith as per Walt over into Oschman type pseudoscientific energy ideas.

As for people who are kept on life support and trying to convince their relatives that they are functionally not there anymore as human beings, I recommend a thorough reading and soaking up of Antonio Damasio, a neurologist who has treated and studied such patients for decades and has written several sensitive, groundbreaking books about consciousness and what exactly that means in human terms. There's a thread here about him. Use the wonderful search tool on this site that Bernard has provided us; just enter "Damasio" and click. Every thread containing any reference to him will instantly appear.
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:42 PM   #73
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Luke -

I'm not suggesting that the neuroscience commuinty has jumped off any bridge, I'm mearly taking your definition and posing the question back to you. We both agree that alot of research in inherently flawed but I think we can both agree that even with flawed research, if a clinician sees the prinicpals working in their practice than we utilize them. At this point aren't we than moving more towards a belief? Secondly isn't the purpose of research to either convince ourselves or others that a principal is sound and has merit, if not than what would be the purpose of research because if we aren't convincing ourselves or others than we are basing our practices on faith rather than fact. (just my own personal observations) BTW I did jump but I had a bungee cord around my ankles and it was a blast

In regards to the subconscious mind - yes I've heard of it and in fact I think it is where we need to tap into for true healing to take place. I'm not up in my research of the brain because I've spent my life with orthopedics (I'm not negating the importance of neuroscience it's just not were I spend my time reading research - probably for the same reason you don't read over the ballistic data of the new rifles that have come out from Winchester in the WSM class - it doesn't intrest you)

I want to make it clear that the only reason I'm here is that I think the disscussions on MFR have been tainted by Barrette and Walt because of their hisotry. I feel that all of you have a basis for understanding MFR and some of the questions are great but many of these questions can be turned around to each of our own practices and therefore spark some intelegent thoughts about what we "believe" works vs what the "facts" are. keep in mind, if you treat patients you must deal in a subjective world that forces the scientific model to change because when you deal with patients you will never have true objective data to work from.

just some thoughts for now but I do have to get to my patient and I would like to stop for now and continue with the rest of Luke's post latter.

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:54 PM   #74
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Dave says, "Keep in mind, if you treat patients you must deal in a subjective world that forces the scientific model to change because when you deal with patients you will never have true objective data to work from."

This isn't true unless the words subjective and objective mean something to you that has nothing to do with their common definition. It's obfuscation.

Walt and I have no "history" to speak of. We've never met and I've never read anything by him before a few days ago on this site. Which brings me to another question: With 50,000 students out there, why is it that only two have joined in on this conversation? Why not Barnes himself?
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:58 PM   #75
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Diane...I was only kidding!! re the blob bit....

Dave, you say you have spent your life with orthopaedics and you suggest that the brain and CNS doesn't interest you...as though the two were totally separate. You can't really understand orthopaedic issues without knowing about the brain's role in this aspect and ALL aspects of dysfunction and pain.

It's like saying you study and are interested in evolution but don't consider Darwin relevant to the topic.....or you love cooking but don't own a stovetop or oven. A whole new world opens up once you appreciate the neurophysiology aspect; it makes the difference between being a technician and a professional thinker.

Do read about what the body is and the brain...Damasio, Ramachandran, Butler's Sensitive Nervous System, Moseley, Michael Shacklock...there are many who are trying to get therapists to think outside the Cartesian square. Don't get left behind in a murky world of fascia....


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Old 04-01-2006, 08:17 PM   #76
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Barrett,

Don't lose interest just yet. Viewpoints in opposition makes for a wonderful discussion. By the way, being openly critical of another's ideas is not inappropriate. "11.3 Disparagement

Physical therapists shall not disparage colleagues and other health care professionals" (APTA Code of Ethics)...........Seems like a fine line to walk.

So lets see if we close the circle a bit.

Barrett:
Quote:
But here’s the thing, buy his own admission Walt is not a scientist. He went to college and he has a license, but using scientific principles to treat patients with physical means-the definition of physical therapy-doesn’t evidently apply to MFR practitioners. There’s a certain convenience here, especially when you consider what Barnes’ students are asked to believe.

Ian Stevens in England recently suggested I read Science and Poetry by Mary Midgley. She points out that social scientists cannot use the methods available to physical scientists. What they often end up doing is philosophy, whether they notice it or not. During my years of observing the conversations on the MFR Chat I saw numerous references to MFR as something much more than a treatment approach but rather an entire way of seeing the universe and living our lives. Of course, this isn’t science, it is philosophy, and, in my opinion, not a good one-given all the “power animals,” “spirit guides,” “past lives” (intruding on this one) and “energy” involved. Some people like this stuff and feel it is an appropriate way of explaining what happens in the clinic, but they aren’t scientists.
Let me see if I follow you. You seem to be saying that we are practicing a form of social science or philosophy. So, when a client comes to see us, they give implied consent to recieve treatment based on science, not social science or philosophy. By not overtly imposing our will to do so, you seem to be claiming that we are guilt of not practicing in a scientific way, right? (you may claim we do it overtly, but we will differ on this) Forget the fact that if a person comes up with a notion of a past life, it was not overt on our part.

Barrett:
Quote:
I recite poetry to my patients for cryin’ out loud
Now, I've yet to read anywhere that poetry falls into the category of hard science, much less social science. (Maybe it can be called philosophy, depending on how good you are at it) You, choosing to recite poetry to your client is certainly a willful insertion of non-scientific beliefs, views, or opinions. Even you must recognise that words can have an equal potential impact on patients as any physical action that you seem to accuse us of. (Don't we all have a memory of something said to us earlier in life that remains with us in a negative way?) You are overtly and purposefully inserting non-scientific information that has the power to influence (and possibly harm, depending on a person's state of mind), which is EXACTLY what you are accusing us of. It is doubtful whether any of us can truthfully say that every technique we perform and word we mutter during a treatment session has infallible scientific backing. This is not splitting hairs. Choosing to recite poetry to a client at a certain time during a session is inserting non-scientific matter into a setting where supposedly none should be allowed. Barrett, please recognise what you are asking us to believe. You are committing the same crime as you accuse us of. If I might speculate, you probably choose a certain passage of poetry (yours or someone else's?) to insert at a particular moment...unless you are reciting them like Muzak in the background....say, Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken when someone is at a crossroad of life. You have imposed your will. You may want to claim that this is far-fetched, but not so. Insertion of non-scientifically based information into a treatment session, if we are to follow your line of reasoning is wrong.

Why did John Barnes not come on to debate you himself? Don't know, why don't you ask him? And don't worry, maybe a few more friends will show up.

Barrett:
Quote:
I’ve had about 4000 students in 72 cities this past year. All have been informed about the location and usefulness of Rehab Edge and when I speak of the ease with which they might discuss issues and have questions answered here they all nod their heads. To date, two have actually contributed to the discussion
, from: http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...light=students

Lets face it, the readership of any site like this is low, and if I hadn't talked to Dave about it, he wouldn't have known a thing. Not to demean the value of this and other site, I think they are invaluable sources of information and dialog. This is why I feel that we are, at present, the only two who have shown up.

Barrett, I still truly believe that you teach good work and would like to attend one of your classes some day, that is if I'd still be welcome. Just realize we are all working in the gray zone.

Walt
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Old 04-01-2006, 08:22 PM   #77
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Barrett -

Here are the definitions of subjective and objective per Websters dictionary

Subjective
Adjective
1. Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias; "a subjective judgment".
2. (philosophy) of a mental act; occurring entirely within the mind.


Objective
Adjective
1. Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence".
2. (grammar) serving as or indicating the object of a verb or of certain prepositions and used for certain other purposes; "objective case"; "accusative endings".
3. Emphasizing or expressing things as perceived without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation; "objective art".
4. Belonging to immediate experience of actual things or events; "concrete benefits"; "a concrete example"; "there is no objective evidence of anything of the kind".

I am utilizing the 1st definition in each word. In working with patients and chronic pain, everytime you ask your patient to describe their pain or to rate it on a universal pain scale of 0-10 (0 = no pain and 10 = worst pain ever) or even utilize a 10 inch line and asking a patient to point to a place on that line that would describe their pain you are getting a response based on the patient's exeriance and tolerance of pain. The only objective data that can be derived from patients is ROM and even that depending on their pain theshold they will gaurd or at best during PROM you will have descrepencies between how much force you are exerting to obtain that PROM as well as the placement of the goiniometer. Therefore unless you have some equipment that measures pain (maybe an EMG) you are only getting subjective data. Even when you ask a patient to rate how much/little improvement they have had with treatment you are still only getting a subjective response regarding their pain levels or their ability to perform ADLs and again only the ROM measurements can be considered objective but even that there are reliability issues that you must admit to.

If you have found a way to eliminate a patients bias or life experiances to gain objective data in your research than I would love to know about it.

Hope this clarifies things for you

Dave

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Old 04-01-2006, 09:42 PM   #78
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Hi Bernard,

Quote:
Dave,

I'll take no offense about the last sentence but without the external machinery, have these human beings some chance to live?
Have they a chance to say something or feel something we may recognize (a facial expression)?

It remains a dramatic situation where all actors have difficulties to move freely.

Is there a chance that a paralysed limb may be cured/treated by MFR?
Just take some minutes to think about this riddle?
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I'd like to give you an example of MFR at work, using a variant on the "paralysed" limb. I know that case studies are frowned upon by many, but that's what I work with! I have a 3 year old with a severe brachail plexus lesion (BPI) from childbirth, with 4 major surgeries for nerve grad=fts, neorolysis, diaphram placation, and "mod quad" procedure. Poor use of the left limb. She has been recieving PT and OT since around 6 months of age. Mom brought her in recently to see what could be done after recieving information on MFR at a national BPI conference. She had gotten Botox injections in the right forearm flexors a few weeks prior, in an attempt to allow the extensors to be worked and exercised by the OT. I see her for 25 minute sessions. At the start of the session, she demonstrated no active writst extension, as she has done all along. Full passive range of motion. I performed 25 minutes of cross-handed myofascial release to the wrist extensors, lateral epi to wrist. After 25 minutes, mom asked her to extend her wrist and she did it on the first try. Weak, but full active ROM. It has maintained itself over the 3 weeks since this treatment, via active encouragement and therapy by all involved. Did I take the pressure off of the nerve? Maybe. Was there so little extensibility of the neuromuscular complex that active motion was unavailable? Maybe. Was the strength actually present, but the compressive forces of the fascial system were too great for her to overcome? Maybe. Take your foot off of the garden hose and the whole system can work. Hope this helps.

Walt
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:48 PM   #79
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Dave

Tell me how an EMG objectively measures pain. The rest of the world doesn't seem to know this....

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Old 05-01-2006, 12:26 AM   #80
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Dave,

You have completely misunderstood Barrett's point.
Quote:
"Keep in mind, if you treat patients you must deal in a subjective world that forces the scientific model to change because when you deal with patients you will never have true objective data to work from."
The scientific knowledge of the functioning of the human nervous system does not change one bit when we ask a patient about their experience of pain. How can asking a patient about their experience suddenly cause the transduction of nociceptive impulses in irritated tissue, conduction into the CNS, processing in the brain and descending response to all cease and somehow this entire process to be transferred into a tissue that simply does not have these capabilities? I am just a surprised at your statemant as Barrett. It is incorrect.

I can see quite clearly that you are "not up in (your) research of the brain". You should take a look. Neuroscience is a fascinating place where all kinds of archaic myths are dispelled.

Luke

Last edited by Luke Rickards; 24-08-2007 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:27 AM   #81
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Walt,

Giving someone verbal encouragement is standard practice in human relations. There is scientific explanation behind why it might be good to do this but most understand it intuitively. This is a far cry from pinning someone to a plinth table and then telling them after they've escaped 'good job, your safe now'. To contend that the need to escape was, a priori, stored in the fascia (somehow causing neural irritation) and you simply released this pre-existing emotion is unsound.

Dave,

Pain is a subjective experience but to contend that because of this that science has to change is not logical. There a clearly objective reasons why we come to experience pain. If you set down the article about guns and pick up an article about pain physiology you'll see why it is unnecessary to attribute pain reduction to dolphins, pre-newtonian physics or the special memory capacity of fascia.
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:46 AM   #82
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Nari -

As far as I know you can't get pain measurements from an EMG but I figured anyone who can get objective data from a subjective report might be able to
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:21 AM   #83
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Luke and Jon -

You are missing the point. Each person's perception of pain is different based on their life experiance. Yes the nerves conduct the same way but the persception the person has is based on their life experiance. If this is what you and Barrett truly accept or believe? The more I read your post the more it appears to me that you are negating the value of a person's life experiance in the interpretation of their pain.

Please explain to me what your thoughts are on a person's life experiance and how it releates to how they percieve pain. As of your last post it appears that you don't think it matters and therefore I can understand why you think that when you ask a patient to rate their pain it would be objective data and void of their personal bias.

Of course after reading your post one last time I have to wonder if you are still stuck on the comment that the fascia "holds emotion". If so please rejoin the conversation - it changed to defining what fascia is, it's relationship to the nervous system and how it can influence the transmission of impulses to the brain. The comment I made to Barrett was in reference to his belief that you can get objective data from asking a patient to rate their pain and the fact that because of this when you study concepts in therapy it is not possible to truly have an objective research project because you are always dealing with how patients percieve their pain, life experiance, therapeutic relationship with the therapist as well as their current situation in life. Therefore scientific study of therapeutic techniques must adapt/change inorder to aknowldge this fact and move more to subjective research (otherwise known as case studies). This is why the therapy world is changing to evidence based practices.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:45 AM   #84
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Dave,
Quote:
The comment I made to Barrett was in reference to his belief that you can get objective data from asking a patient to rate their pain
Please point out where Barrett said that. I maintain, you have misunderstood the point.


Quote:
I can understand why you think that when you ask a patient to rate their pain it would be objective data and void of their personal bias.
Please point out where I said this.


Quote:
your last post it appears that you don't think (personal experience) matters
Neuroscience clearly explains the effect of personal experience on the perception of pain (please read about Melzac's Neuromatrix) and I have no problem with that, only with idea that this experience is generated in the fascia.


Quote:
I have to wonder if you are still stuck on the comment that the fascia "holds emotion". If so please rejoin the conversation - it changed to defining what fascia is, it's relationship to the nervous system and how it can influence the transmission of impulses to the brain.
Well, now we are getting somewhere. What then is your definition of fascia and what is its function? What do you see as it's relationship to the nervous system? How does it influence transmission of impulses to the brain? What do you think the brain does with these impulses? (I take it we will not see any evidence that the fascia stores emotion then?) Please answer these questions!

Thanks,
Luke

Last edited by Luke Rickards; 05-01-2006 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 05-01-2006, 02:31 AM   #85
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Dave

I still can't find anywhere that states Barrett or anyone else gains objective data from subjective questioning. It is just not logical. The VAS (which is the term for pain 'measurement') is unreliable anyway ; like blood pressure it varies from hour to hour and would need to be taken consistently over a period of time to have any real meaning. It simply shows a bit of a trend, up or down or unchanged over several weeks.

I read recently that some people refer to the 'second brain' - viz, the base of the spinal cord. That's a bit mysterious to me, but it occurs to me that you seem to see the fascia as a kind of second brain in the system. Is this a reasonable assumption to make from what has been said so far?

We would like our questions answered, Dave, as this is a discussion. You have mentioned several excerpts and references, but they don't seem relevant to the topic. I still invite answers from yourself or Walt and wonder why there are not more MFRers responding....

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Old 05-01-2006, 02:54 AM   #86
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Hi Dave,

You state:

Quote:
The more I read your post the more it appears to me that you are negating the value of a person's life experiance in the interpretation of their pain.
Please highlight the part of what I wrote that led you to believe this.

I would also like some clarification of the above. When you state "...in the interpretation of their pain", who is the interpreter in this instance?
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:55 AM   #87
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Walt, Dave:

I was wondering if you are under the impression that current neuroscience would require you to change your practice significantly from what you are currently doing? I ask this because it sounds like much of your clinical practice is worth holding onto. I think what most here are arguing about is your explanation of what you observe clinically, not what you are doing clinically (not including my already noted objections).
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:56 AM   #88
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Walt, about your example:
Quote:
I performed 25 minutes of cross-handed myofascial release to the wrist extensors, lateral epi to wrist. After 25 minutes, mom asked her to extend her wrist and she did it on the first try. Weak, but full active ROM. It has maintained itself over the 3 weeks since this treatment, via active encouragement and therapy by all involved.
All this tells me is that skin stretching done in a careful manner works quite well to restore lost movement function. (Can you spell, n-e-u-r-o-m-o-d-u-l-a-t-i-o-n?).
Quote:
Did I take the pressure off of the nerve? Maybe.
I doubt it. "Pressure" may have come off "the nerve", but I seriously doubt it was you. I expect if anything like that did in fact happen it was your patient's brain that did all the heavy lifting.
Quote:
Was there so little extensibility of the neuromuscular complex that active motion was unavailable? Maybe.
Again, doubt it. Faulty movement pattern, yes. Inhibited, likely. Probably not much wrong with any tissue at all.
Quote:
Was the strength actually present, but the compressive forces of the fascial system were too great for her to overcome? Maybe.
Again, doubt it. The brain perceived a peripheral nerve in some kind of trouble (i.e., not enough oxygen), message relayed to it by nervi nervorum, it shut down movement until it could figure out the "problem" then couldn't get movement going again properly. Happens all the time.
Quote:
Take your foot off of the garden hose and the whole system can work. Hope this helps.
Actually, getting the brain to take its own 'foot off the garden hose' is the big trick, the rest is child's play.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:09 AM   #89
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Diane -

Before we continue our discussion I think I would like to break free alittle bit from the past few posts because I have begun to see a trend here that is starting to sound like we are not on the same page and I think it was the last exchange I had with Luke that helped me to see that.

I'm going to ask for everyones patience for a moment (no I'm not avoiding any questions or trying to change the subject, just slow down the ride a little so that everyone is on at the same time) while I step back and let everyone know my intent and see if that helps the discussion.

In talking with Diane it has been made clear to me that many of us are utilizing different words to mean the same thing and the definitions that John Barnes utilizes are different than others that are out there. This was made clear to me when Diane was able to accept my point that maybe the skin ligaments were what John describes/terms as fascia.

One last thing I want to make perfectly clear to everyone: I have left the comment that "emotions are trapped in the fascial system" for now because it appears that people are misunderstanding what we mean. Luke asked when that happened and he has a good point. Please read Walt's posts 42 & 46.

Therefore I would like to concentrate and continue my discusion with Diane regarding what is the fascial system, its importance and how it is influenced as taught by John Barnes. These are the basics of MFR and what should be looked at. One quick note regarding comments about power animals, spirit guides and post life experiances as it pertains to the methods taugh by John. These are concepts that have been discussed on the MFR Chat line and not at any seminars that I've been at. Understand that when you train over 50,000 therapists not all of them come from a scientific mind such as some of the people on this chat but rather an eclectic view of life - this in no way should have any bearing on this discussion because we are talkin science not cultural belief systems. For examples of John's writtings I would like to encourage any and all of you to visits John's web site at www.myofascialrelease.com and click the link for articles and take a look at some of these, it may help your understanding as to the frame of reference MFR therapists come from.

Now on with the show :teeth:
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:22 AM   #90
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OK, Dave, I will leave it to you and Diane. But we won't wander off very far....

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Old 05-01-2006, 04:26 AM   #91
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I was unsuccessful at uploading this file but here's the link to John's scientific rationale.

Scientific Rationale

In it he states

Quote:
My
personal experience was that
consciousness was the most
important aspect of life
and healing. I found that
my patient’s fascial system
was full of life, memories,
emotions and consciousness!
Walt, Dave,

Does this sound plausible to you knowing what you know about memories, emotions and consciousness and knowing what you know about the things that make up fascia?

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Old 05-01-2006, 04:35 AM   #92
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Dave, here's the quote from post #72:
Quote:
Quote:
If skin ligaments are made up of the same components than I think we have some common ground to talk with and this is were my post was trying to go.
OK, point accepted..
That's still a big "if" in there Dave..

From post #89:
Quote:
In talking with Diane it has been made clear to me that many of us are utilizing different words to mean the same thing and the definitions that John Barnes utilizes are different than others that are out there. This was made clear to me when Diane was able to accept my point that maybe the skin ligaments were what John describes/terms as fascia.
There's still a big 'maybe' in there... my sense is that the fascia Barnes thinks he is bending/changing is the tough pearly stuff wrapped around the body under the skin/subcutaneous tissue like a tight diving suit.

When I talk about skin ligaments the most salient points I'd like to make about them is that:
1. many of them are neural conduits
2. which makes the nerves inside of them subject to all the same painstakingly worked out corrective characteristics of neuromodulation applied to any nerve in any tunnel, through neurodynamics. (Best source: Michael Shacklock, Clinical Neurodynamics.)

Please read something besides Oschman and Barnes, guys..
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Last edited by Diane; 05-01-2006 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:40 AM   #93
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If this past life stuff doesn't belong in the world of MFR why does Barnes place it so prominently in his book? When a writer/teacher does such a thing they can't expect us to ignore it at their convenience.

He's stuck with this image. Will he abandon it or own it?
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:46 AM   #94
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Diane -

Unfortunately time is already creeping up on me so I'll have time to post than it's off to bed.

To recap, it sounds like we have agreed to agree on: Skin ligaments and what John defines as fascia are one in the same (for the purpose of this discussion). I'm not sure if you agree that the fascial system allows for the structures in the body to maintain their normal shape and position (not arguing the point that nerves are able to "plow" through it to reach where they need to go). If you are willing to accept that point than it will be easy to keep up with this train of thought.

First and formost I am not putting the fascial system higher in importance than the nervous system - I feel that they work together with one not anymore important than the other, for without one the other would have problems. For example if you were to remove the fascia around a nerve you would infact be stripping that nerve of its insulation and support which in turn would cause nerves to cross over each other and create a mess when it comes to communication with the brain.

Okay back to the basics of the fascial system. When I explain the fascial system to others I borrow from John and ask people to visualize an orange that has been cut in half and look at all the white that is there. From the outside in we can see that the white is located underneath the rine - this would be the superfiscial layer of the fascial system and would include skin ligaments, next you can see white in between each slice of the orange - this would be the deep layer of the fascial system that would include it's connection around every bone, muscle, organ, ect and finally you can see how it separates each peice of pulp - this would be the fascial system that is located on the cellular level.

As you can see we are taught that the fascial system is everywhere and not anymore important than any other structure. Also you can understand when MFR therapists talk about the fascial system being a 3-D web and how it is possible that when we aply gentle pressure into the fascial system via the skin we can affect the fascial system in other areas of the body. This is possible because each layer is connected to the layer above and below it. As for the cellular layer of the fascial system I'm going to ask Walt for some assistance here to list some research that has shown the fascial system at the cellular level via electrone microscope.

Now for the function of the fascial system. To be brief the superficial layer is responsible for maintaining the separation of adapose tissue which then allows the body to retain heat and provide a "cusion" from outside blunt forces as well as providing support for all the nerves and bloodvessels that are innervating the skin and allowing the body to cool off by increasing blood flow to the skin. The deep layer is responsible for many things including providing form to muscles, increaing the surface area on bones for muscles to attach and again helping to provide sturctural support to nerves as they travel to their destinations (mainly the tunnels they travel in - weather it be the ones that were there or the ones the nerves "plowed") Finally the cellular level is responsible for allowing cells to maintain their separation which provides space between cells that allow for the transport of nutrients and cellular respiration. There has been some studies that contend that there is a fascial system inside each cell.

I know that was rather quick but I'd like to continue because of time.

As you can see there is no mention here of the "storage of emotion" - mainly because emotion is an interpretation of a stimuli in the brain (this is the role of the nervous system isn't it?)

Now for the manipulation of the fascia. However I haven't said anything about what a restriction is so let me back up a little. The fascial system is made up of collegan (for strength and resistance of tensile forces), elastin (for flexability and the ability to absorb tensile forces when needed) and finally the ground substance (for lubrication of the collegan and elastine fibers as they move over each other). If the ground substance changes from a viscus fluid to something that resembles sludge than the collegan and elastine fibers can't glide over each other and therefore become a restriction (barrier) and we have agreed that a restriction can create a tensile strength of up to 2000lbs/sq inch. Consider a restiction that is located around/inside a muscle belly such as the quadraceps and that this restriction not only involves the muscle belly but extends past the muscle due to the nature of the fascial system being a 3-D web and also involves the ASIS or Ilium of the pelvis. This would cause the pelvis to rotate forward and consider for a moment that the fascial system on the opposite side of the body isn't restricted and that would allow you to see how MFR therapists see a torsion in the pelvis which can cause crushing and tearing forces of the structures inside the pelvis and cause many outward symptoms that don't seem to be related such as incontinence, infertility, SI joint pain and the list can go on. Now consider that the nervous system is involved and telling the brain that one leg is longer than the other via propreoception and now a person begins to limp which only perpetuates the situation. Where do emotions come into play - simple.

The fascial system can become restriction through a variety of methods such as blunt force trauma (such as a car accident), surgery and emotion/stress. In the case of blunt force trauma consider a person that gets hit while driving in their car by a large truck. As the body is tossed around the vehicle like a rag doll the nervous system alerts the fascial system to tighten up (along with every other muscle in the body) in order to protect the person's organs and prevent a broken bone (as much as it can - lets face it if you hit the bone hard enough it'll break) or worse dislodging of a vital organ ( I don't think it would be a good idea to have your liver or spleen bouncing around inside your body). Unfortuantly once the accedent is over the nevous system calms down but the fascial system stays restricted and the subconscious brain inerpets this as the body still being hit by the car (sounds a little far fetched but then explain to me why PTSD patients have recuring episodes where they truly feel they are back in the traumatic event and how they can smell things that aren't there but were there during their traumatic event). These are the instances that MFR therapists will state an emotion is trapped (is the emotion at this point in the facia or in the nervous system? and does it really matter to the patient in pain that just wants to heal?) Accourding to this explanation the fascial system is now restricted and requires us to help the person release these restrictions.

It has been found that if we use gentle pressue onto the skin and use our tactile senses to feel for an area either just under the skin that doesn't glide like the skin around it or that feels like a barrier we can locate a restriction. Also if we sustain this pressure for a minimum of 90 to 120 seconds the ground substance begins to change viscosity from sludge back to a viscous state and therefore allow the collegen and elastine fibers to begin to glide again (termed a release). The method of utilizing gentle pressure to allow the viscosity to change is termed the pizioelectric effect (Walt I could use some source sighting here). Once the fascial system releases a person can regain freedom of movement or the hold on the ASIS and Ilium is released and therefore allowing the pelvise to rotate back to it's natural alignment.

As for emotion releasing during this process I would contend that when the fascial system is restricted it is pinching/crushing any and all structures that are passing through that area which would include nerves. Once a nerve is pinched it looses it's ability to send impulses to the brain (at least slows these impulse down) and therefore is it possible that it prevents the nervous system from telling the brain that an event or emotion is present? Also once the fascial system is released and the nerve is allowed to regain it's ability to send information to the brain is it possible that any latent impulse that was "stuck" would reach the brain and therefore elicit an emotional response that would have been appropriate at the time of the trauma but is just now stimulating the brain?

Please read the entire post before posting questions or responses. I hope this helps many of you to understand the basics of MFR and how we utilize our terms.

Dave
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:06 AM   #95
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Thanks for that link, jon. Explains quite a few things......


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Old 05-01-2006, 07:38 AM   #96
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Ditto Jon,

Once again, the linkmaster provides me with what I need to make an informed decision. I'm glad I followed you all over from RE. From the the MFR site:

"Myofascial Release structurally and energetically opens and rehydrates
the human fascial system of liquid light for the coherent
flow of frequency, vibration, information and organization necessary
for the health and quality of life. I’ll ask you again, are you
ready to move out of the dark ages of healthcare?"

What?

This has been a very interesting discussion, but I'm not sure anyone here is going to be influenced by either side of the dialogue. This reminds me a bit of the current hype in the US media over "Inteligent Design" and what science is and isn't. Maybe the debate requires judicial intervention...
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:40 AM   #97
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Hi All,

Loaded the file for Jon

(the tittle contained a space)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf mfr.pdf (1.04 MB, 31 views)
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Old 05-01-2006, 08:20 AM   #98
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I know I said I would back off and let Dave/Walt and Diane talk fascia, but I can't resist...

Rehydrates...collagen?
Liquid light?
Fascial transport a zillion times the speed of light? (from J Barnes' article)
I think I will retreat into Dawkins' book (in the Pharos, I am posting snippets)

No offence intended, Dave and Walt; but I think we are worlds apart.

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Old 05-01-2006, 08:50 AM   #99
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Dave, I know where fascia is and that it wraps at every level and so on. I have no problem acknowleging its existance.
Then we get to the last 4-5 paragraphs:
Quote:
Now for the manipulation of the fascia.
I think this is the start of where the whole construct starts to make my eyebrows go up.

Quote:
However I haven't said anything about what a restriction is so let me back up a little. The fascial system is made up of collegan (for strength and resistance of tensile forces), elastin (for flexability and the ability to absorb tensile forces when needed) and finally the ground substance (for lubrication of the collegan and elastine fibers as they move over each other). If the ground substance changes from a viscus fluid to something that resembles sludge than the collegan and elastine fibers can't glide over each other and therefore become a restriction (barrier) and we have agreed that a restriction can create a tensile strength of up to 2000lbs/sq inch. Consider a restiction that is located around/inside a muscle belly such as the quadraceps and that this restriction not only involves the muscle belly but extends past the muscle due to the nature of the fascial system being a 3-D web and also involves the ASIS or Ilium of the pelvis. This would cause the pelvis to rotate forward and consider for a moment that the fascial system on the opposite side of the body isn't restricted and that would allow you to see how MFR therapists see a torsion in the pelvis which can cause crushing and tearing forces of the structures inside the pelvis and cause many outward symptoms that don't seem to be related such as incontinence, infertility, SI joint pain and the list can go on.
I propose that this is an assumptive "premature cognitive committment," made in retrospect, after some movement dysfunction appeared to be solved by some skin stretching; some sort of explanation was attempted based on faulty reasoning, and not enough information. The real bulk of pain/brain/nervous system information has come about in the last 20 years, sort of parallel to this whole MFR string of conjecture that seems to have never heard of any of it, or have taken any of it on board to retrofit/upgrade its conceptual underpinnings.


Quote:
Now consider that the nervous system is involved and telling the brain that one leg is longer than the other via propreoception and now a person begins to limp which only perpetuates the situation. Where do emotions come into play - simple.
??


Quote:
The fascial system can become restriction through a variety of methods such as blunt force trauma (such as a car accident), surgery and emotion/stress. In the case of blunt force trauma consider a person that gets hit while driving in their car by a large truck. As the body is tossed around the vehicle like a rag doll the nervous system alerts the fascial system to tighten up (along with every other muscle in the body)
.. at last, some consideration of a role for the nervous system..


Quote:
.. in order to protect the person's organs and prevent a broken bone (as much as it can - lets face it if you hit the bone hard enough it'll break) or worse dislodging of a vital organ ( I don't think it would be a good idea to have your liver or spleen bouncing around inside your body).
Hmmnn..., the nervous system can contract the fascia to protect spleens and livers?


Quote:
Unfortuantly once the accedent is over the nevous system calms down
..does it?



Quote:
but the fascial system stays restricted and the subconscious brain inerpets this as the body still being hit by the car
I'd put this in the 'assumption' category.



Quote:
(sounds a little far fetched but then explain to me why PTSD patients have recuring episodes where they truly feel they are back in the traumatic event and how they can smell things that aren't there but were there during their traumatic event).
The brain, Dave.. the brain..



Quote:
These are the instances that MFR therapists will state an emotion is trapped (is the emotion at this point in the facia or in the nervous system?
I pick the latter...


Quote:
and does it really matter to the patient in pain that just wants to heal?)
Wait a second, why throw that comment in here? We're talking about ourselves as professionals and our constructs.. aren't we?.. they matter a LOT, to me anyway.


Quote:
Accourding to this explanation the fascial system is now restricted and requires us to help the person release these restrictions.
Here's where I would beg to differ. I think the MFR construct is a fairy tale by now, by this point.


Quote:
It has been found that if we use gentle pressue onto the skin and use our tactile senses to feel for an area either just under the skin that doesn't glide like the skin around it or that feels like a barrier we can locate a restriction.
There are many blumps just under the skin. They respond very well to neuromodulation. Who to say they have anything much to do with fascia?



Quote:
Also if we sustain this pressure for a minimum of 90 to 120 seconds the ground substance begins to change viscosity from sludge back to a viscous state and therefore allow the collegen and elastine fibers to begin to glide again (termed a release).
.. and you assume that process must be what you are feeling? Why wouldn't a hot tub work just as well?


Quote:
The method of utilizing gentle pressure to allow the viscosity to change is termed the pizioelectric effect (Walt I could use some source sighting here).
Can you spell, n-e-u-r-o-m-o-d-u-l-a-t-i-o-n?


Quote:
Once the fascial system releases a person can regain freedom of movement or the hold on the ASIS and Ilium is released and therefore allowing the pelvise to rotate back to it's natural alignment.
Why would it care what you are doing out there on the skin, assuming even for a nanosecond that it's the fascia holding the pelvis out of whack in the first place, and not just a regular muscular movement dysfunction due to irritable neural tissue somewhere?


Quote:
As for emotion releasing during this process I would contend that when the fascial system is restricted it is pinching/crushing any and all structures that are passing through that area which would include nerves. Once a nerve is pinched it looses it's ability to send impulses to the brain (at least slows these impulse down) and therefore is it possible that it prevents the nervous system from telling the brain that an event or emotion is present?
That is just a huge stretch for me, full of supposition and premature cognitive committment based on a perceptual fantasy. It doesn't fit with what I know about the behavior of the nervous system or its sensitivity to its surrounds in the periphery or pain science.



Quote:
Also once the fascial system is released and the nerve is allowed to regain it's ability to send information to the brain is it possible that any latent impulse that was "stuck" would reach the brain and therefore elicit an emotional response that would have been appropriate at the time of the trauma but is just now stimulating the brain?
??



Quote:
Please read the entire post before posting questions or responses. I hope this helps many of you to understand the basics of MFR and how we utilize our terms.
I have. Still sounds like a made-up fairytale to me.
Check this out... http://websites.golden-orb.com/pain-...ion/100137.php

It's a different construct, but one that I think accounts for more reality and makes far fewer assumptions.
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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Old 05-01-2006, 09:20 AM   #100
Diane
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It's been a very long time since I actually read anything about MFR from the MFR perspective. It is not in a class of its own, there's a class already pre-existing for writing like this, for mental constructs like this. It's called pseudoscience.

Take a look at the distuiguishing characteristics and see if you can count how many of them that little blurb on the wonders of MFR contains. Here's another link with more info on how to spot pseudoscience. It mentions something called "shoehorning" or glamming up one's shabby little construct by adding other shinier memeplexes to it.

From reading the blurb I'd say that Barnes has never ever bothered to read a thing about the nervous system (he says the brain is there to reflect/record the light from the liquid crystals, only..) nor would it seem that he has ever picked up a book on evolution (how nervous systems and brains have changed over aeons) or embryology (what unfolds from what and how structure and function actually interrelate.)

In short, it would appear that Barnes designed a package that he invented that has enough science badly shoehorned in to make it seem appealing enough to sell to care providers who apparently have an appetite to follow a leader and not have to think for themselves. Dave, Walt, you both seem to be reasonable people; why are you continuing to bury yourselves in this crapolito?
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"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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