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Old 13-06-2017, 12:47 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
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Default Falsehood and Lie

There is a distinction I recently heard in definition here:

Falsehood: Something believed, whether or not it's the case.

Lie: Something the teller of which knows not to be the case.


What do you think of this?
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Old 13-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #2
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It's been a debate around my office! We argue about which is worse, one who lies to pts or one who spreads falsehoods to pts? The context is regarding most manual therapy and how's it's sold to pts.
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Old 13-06-2017, 02:05 PM   #3
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I'm reminded of a quote from Seinfeld (big surprise) when George says to Jerry when asked how to lie so regularly. George is known to lie regularly:

Quote:
It's not a lie, if you believe it's true.
There's something to be said for "Let's go to the videotape (or recording)." These have been both been shown to be easily manipulated.

What another "believes" is off-limits, according to the culture.
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Old 13-06-2017, 02:30 PM   #4
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I've decided it's worse to knowingly lie to your pts to help pay for your yacht, compared to believing in something that's not accurate.

Science should be about reading and understanding not believing in something, unfortunately that's not always the case
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Old 13-06-2017, 02:41 PM   #5
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Josh,

I really appreciate your contributing here.

My recent blog about reading comes to mind. It's worth reading. Well, looking through at least.

From post #5:

The use of emojis was what I referred to earlier. They're everywhere, and they've expanded.

Such things express thoughts and feelings words cannot. I don't know what many of them mean, but I'm old.

The books and articles I read don't have any emojis, but they may one day. I might be scared of their proliferation. Are picture books part of the future? I don't suppose I can prevent the future, but graphic novels are popular. I don't read them, but I'm old.

I may have mentioned that.

In any case, the things I read contain nothing in the way of pictures, pretty much. There's power point now though. I can't get out of my head a comment made by a student in the 70s:

Quote:
If Mad Magazine wrote more of this stuff maybe I'd understand it.
I read the magazine. I enjoyed it. It was full of pictures.

The scientific method and reading is disappearing.

Yea, I said it.
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Old 13-06-2017, 04:25 PM   #6
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When discussing beliefs it is worth considering the definition of a cult:

a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of

I think of this when debating others who hold strong beliefs in manual therapy and other tools used to treat pain. Dare I mention 'kool aid'?
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Old 13-06-2017, 04:39 PM   #7
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The issue of power has something with this. I have heard that cults are relatively small. Would size have something to do with this?
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Old 13-06-2017, 05:48 PM   #8
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I think the distinction between a falsehood and a lie is accurate.

In my mind, both are equally unacceptable when we are talking about ones obligation as a professional: 1) to be informed enough to avoid falsehoods and 2) obviously never lie.

This is my problem with the new literature surrounding patient expectation, beliefs and ultimately placebo.

It seems this has become the new "gravy train" for many in our profession.

From this EIM blog by Edno Zylstra (from Kinetacore):

Quote:
The issue shouldn’t be whether there is enough business for all medical providers to develop their niche in treating patients, but whether the patient is given the access to the care they need, want to try, or have found really works for them.
It seems to me that giving patients what they need has taken a back seat to giving patients what they want.

Dry needling is clearly drenched in non specific effects at best and completely bogus at worst.

Yet all hail "patient expectation" because it gives us carte blanche to just do whatever.

So perpetuating it as a viable treatment option is either a falsehood or a lie...or a combination of both perhaps?

But meh...it's better than opioids and surgery right?

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Old 13-06-2017, 06:46 PM   #9
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Try arguing with the leader of a technique. The followers go on the attack. Scary.
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Old 13-06-2017, 07:34 PM   #10
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Rob,

Attack is the word alright. What is being attacked? How?

proud,

I've heard that needs can be bought. Wants cannot.

Is what the patient needs and wants to be factored into all care? Should they (wants and needs) be separated or defined thus?
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Old 13-06-2017, 08:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Rob,

Attack is the word alright. What is being attacked? How?

proud,

I've heard that needs can be bought. Wants cannot.

Is what the patient needs and wants to be factored into all care? Should they (wants and needs) be separated or defined thus?
In terms of medicine...yes.

A patient may arrive at an ER with a viral infection and subsequent sore throat. They may think and therefore want an antibiotic.

And yes, a prescribed antibiotic shortens the duration of the episode (via placebo mechanisms).

A good ER doc provides the patient what they need (advice to rest and drink plenty of fluids).

A bad ER doc just gives the patient what they want.

The former gets rated poorly on "rate MD's" while the latter is a hero.

I don't think any patient ever EVER needs dry needling...but we have done a fantastic job of creating a want that's for sure.

Ya...they are separate.
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Old 13-06-2017, 08:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Rob,

Attack is the word alright. What is being attacked? How?
My experience has been that they are attacking any conflicting ideas that challenge their belief system. Unfortunately, they never attempt to challenge the conflicting idea by presenting valid arguments. Instead, they choose to attack a person's character.
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Old 13-06-2017, 09:11 PM   #13
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Rob,

I'm familiar with an attack upon one's character. It's easy to do so - even mine.

This site is about the presentation and defense of ideas.

Of course, ignoring it is also easy.
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Old 14-06-2017, 02:37 AM   #14
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Barrett,


Why do you think the scientific method and reading is disappearing? Cuts to education? Distracted by pop culture?
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Old 14-06-2017, 03:21 AM   #15
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Rob,

I don't know why, only that it seems to be happening. Perhaps he operative word there is "seems."

Perhaps the book by Gleik titled Faster has something to do with this. It was non-fiction but made a lot of sense. There's something to be said for science fiction writers. Bradbury was one - a special one.

The word I use to describe the situation faced by many today is scattered. I don't think "dumb" or "stupid" is useful. "Ignorant" seems misunderstood.
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Old 14-06-2017, 01:11 PM   #16
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"I don't know" remains a problematic answer to many questions. "In science, all knowledge is provisional," is something I've repeated many, many times. I don't think I made it up. Einstein, after all, didn't show that Newton was wrong, one thing he did was show that gravity was affected by mass. It took the procession of Mercury (seen in a total eclipse) to show Einstein was less wrong. Maybe someone will build upon this eventually.

I may have mentioned that there's a lot I'm ignorant of. I can fake as if I know something about them. This is troublesome at times.

"Knowing" about how the body works is something therapists are supposed to "know" about. Often it's full of what seems to be known is "believed" by whatever the therapist was taught.

This varies, but defending what is done or said would solve the problem. Defense requires questioning and discussion - both of which are frowned upon.

There's a difference between telling a lie and telling a falsehood. To me, it has to do with what is "believed."
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Old 15-06-2017, 04:00 AM   #17
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When someone no longer believes that what we (well, I) have defined as a falsehood but tells others anyway, they have lied and become a salesperson or sociopath. There's probably some spectrum there.

Thoughts?
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Old 15-06-2017, 01:06 PM   #18
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I've said that there's a spectrum from salesmanship to sociopathy and many object to this. I understand.

To some extent, salesmanship turns out to be sociopathy only when the salesman (I assume you understand my use of the formal "man" here) moves from falsehood to lie. My father was a driver/salesman for a local dairy for many years. He handled his "sales" as a "pitchman," lining up the ice cream and topping each with whipped cream (his primary product) and asking each owner to tell him which tasted best. Of course, his real whipped cream tasted better. It didn't hurt that he mentioned his competitor sold something he characterized as a toxic substance. He was a dependent upon sales after all.

There's more to this, but I want only to make this point: Moving from falsehood to lie requires what someone "believes." I am asking for defense and that requires asking questions.

That takes some time and study.
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