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Old 16-07-2017, 01:59 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
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Default Science Sunday V

I've concluded that therapy has embraced evidence. There's several problems with evidence itself as has been chronicled here many times. Evidence isn't useless, but it can be used in many ways as long as the power of pieces of it are not mentioned. Evidence grows, and any detective knows that they might be wrong. Of course, many, many "heroes" among the detective class are never wrong.

In real life, they are. They readily admit this, or are forced to. It sells well if the perp has spent some time in prison.

Science is different than evidence. It grows, it changes, it reveals things. Hasn't DNA taught us this?

More soon.
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Old 16-07-2017, 02:32 PM   #2
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The ability to create energy or manipulate it or move it around is commonly claimed by proponents of "energy medicine." To anyone who understands the second law of thermodynamics (stated by Newton, who seemed to know what he was doing) this is not possible. There's plenty of evidence for this though.

Perhaps it needs some discussion.
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Old 16-07-2017, 03:57 PM   #3
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Why don't they just kill them?

Said by all kinds of people about others on TV shows, movies and other places.
In order to create a good story, the killing of another person or thing doesn't end the problem. Sometimes it might, sometimes it makes things worse.

According to me, the death of science has been attempted (and largely accomplished) by others. Perhaps I should have put others in quotes. One of the tactics used is the rise of "evidence-based practice." My own confirmation bias which, being human, I can't seem to shake (drat!) makes me think of a few. I blame them. Can't escape being human and tending to do that.

Drat.
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Old 16-07-2017, 05:49 PM   #4
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The death of science has taken a few generations. Generational change is something I've heard of recently and will write about soon.

It has happened in therapy (according to me) but has taken some time. It probably began before I was born. Certainly before I noticed it.

Sometimes things change for the better, sometimes they get worse. Pasteur's discovery wasn't immediately recognized. My goodness, bleeding for the health of others wasn't ever a good idea but this wasn't recognized for several hundred (even thousands) of years. History seems to teach us a thing or two, unless it doesn't.

Any examples?
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Old 16-07-2017, 08:50 PM   #5
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I've been known to ask therapists if they knew the difference between evidence and science-based practice.

I am lucky (I suppose) that I didn't get punched in response.

Recently I asked a question about the difference between injury and pain on Facebook. In response there was a cartoon depicting a slap (open handed) by Batman of Robin when the latter asked the same question. Well, part of it.

It is no wonder I grew silent.
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Old 16-07-2017, 11:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Recently I asked a question about the difference between injury and pain on Facebook. In response there was a cartoon depicting a slap (open handed) by Batman of Robin when the latter asked the same question. Well, part of it.
You were made into a 'meme'? Well aren't you just up with the young generation. I bet they had a good chuckle over that.

While I'm sure it was in part supposed to be humorous, to me it actually highlights the problem. People don't want to question, and don't like being questioned. Maybe it's because it forces them to actually think deeper about those things they take for granted. You were probably seen as being pedantic, which appears to have a mostly negative connotation these days.

I'm endeavouring to be a bit more pedantic these days, at least with some things.

I know you asked a similar question of me regarding injury and pain on here just recently.

Maybe I should have thought of using that meme.
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Old 17-07-2017, 01:06 PM   #7
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Benno,

I am pedantic. I say to myself, "They killed Socrates" knowing that some people would say I was comparing myself to Socrates. I'm not actually, but I'll be accused of it. Like me, he asked questions. In fact, his nickname was "the gadfly." Among many therapists I am just (and called) a troll. I think that's worse than a gadfly. A painting of Socrates' death (he was the one who drank hemlock) is quite famous and was spoken of on The Nerdwriter. Oh yes, I'm a nerd too.

Anyway, it's interesting that you mention memes. I asked about them in my first blog post in 2010.

I identified myself as a nerd then.
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Old 17-07-2017, 04:53 PM   #8
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Interestingly, the chiropractor who "smacked" (via a cartoon) anyone asking a question (Robin, in this case) has not commented on the thread on Facebook since. Perhaps the use of violence in any case, even cartoonish violence, was a bit much to other therapists.

This was on the Doctor of Physical Therapy Students Facebook page.

What do you suppose is going on?
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Old 17-07-2017, 09:20 PM   #9
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I've concluded that therapy has embraced evidence. There's several problems with evidence itself as been chronicled here many times. Evidence isn't useless, but it can be used in many ways as long as the power of pieces of it are not mentioned. Evidence grows, and any detective knows that they might be wrong. Of course, many, many "heroes" among the detective class are never wrong.

In real life, they are. They readily admit this, or are forced to. It sells well if the perp has spent some time in prison.

Science is different than evidence. It grows, it changes, it reveals things. Hasn't DNA taught us this?

More soon.

On the dry needling course I took someone said "if we waited for science we would never treat a single patient"


My response: blank stare.
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Old 17-07-2017, 10:06 PM   #10
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proud,

I assume this blankness is accompanied by silence. I can relate.

It's rather like being shot by somebody while the audience (in the theatre) cheers. We hadn't even known the shooter was there. They might have just pistol-whipped you, but there's always a chance you'll be able to come back from that.

I've several more things to say but I've seen a lot of movies so I'll stop there.

In any case, we (at least I) didn't anticipate the dismissal of the scientific method by therapists. Drat!

Perhaps you should have asked that therapist if they've ever heard of The Enlightenment.

Nah, that might have gotten you punched.
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Old 18-07-2017, 02:58 PM   #11
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Perhaps you should have asked that therapist if they've ever heard of The Enlightenment.

Nah, that might have gotten you punched.
Barrett, the very, very sad thing is that it would not even generate a punch.

It would be a very blank stare, followed by "What? What are you talking about?!?"

The absence of understanding of the scientific method and scientific thinking is exposed daily in many environments, like FB where this study was posted to support this comment: "Meridians are not as mythical as unicorns"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3838801/

That person does not even begin to understand how decidedly silly the study is and how clearly it shows that he has NO idea of how much irony is present between his comment and this study
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Old 18-07-2017, 04:20 PM   #12
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Bas,

I agree with you, of course, but there's another step not anticipated by those of us (that includes you and me, but, as usual, I'm mainly thinking of myself) - the desire to look something up. Education costs a lot, but I hadn't thought that it would end with schooling. Well, I hadn't anticipated that before I had thought of it. Drat!

The Internet has changed us. I just thought of that. (I'm being sarcastic) By offering social media outlets we supposed that discussion would follow. It hasn't. Saying discussion has grown because of the Internet is like saying the Id will die because the Ego has been "discovered." Some more terms to look up.

Looking stuff up is also something few do. We live in the "age of information," but many wonderful and "successful" therapists don't "look stuff up."

Unicorns are an interesting. They represent something wanted by many. Whether they exist or not probably isn't relevant.
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Old 18-07-2017, 06:55 PM   #13
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True, Barrett. Like you I am mostly autodidactic, and looking things up and learning/thinking hasn't - ever.

Never liked unicorns, by the way.
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I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
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Old 18-07-2017, 06:59 PM   #14
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Bas,

You don't like unicorns? How do you feel about rainbows?
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Old 18-07-2017, 07:02 PM   #15
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Very nice to look at and such a cool reason for them to exist - refraction of light in water droplets.

Unicorns? Imaginary horses with a horn on their forehead?
Give me real horses anytime - beautiful, just beautiful.
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We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
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Old 18-07-2017, 07:03 PM   #16
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Very nice to look at and such a cool reason for them to exist - refraction of light in water droplets.

Unicorns? Imaginary horses with a horn on their forehead?
Give me real horses anytime - beautiful, just beautiful.
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We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
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Old 18-07-2017, 07:39 PM   #17
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Bas,

Horses are often referred to as "magnificent creatures." Not by me, but that's just me. I'm not a bad person. At least, I don't think so.

I reassured the nurses in the station that I was "no one." I'm not sure they all believed me.

It might have been the tie.
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Old 19-07-2017, 12:53 AM   #18
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Looking stuff up is also something few do. We live in the "age of information," but many wonderful and "successful" therapists don't "look stuff up."
I'm sure many or most "look stuff up", I think the problem is more the depth of investigation. The internet has provided easy access to information. That doesn't mean it is good information. Possibly due to the easy access, people are less inclined to search hard for their information.

How many would look past the first few hits on a Google search? How many just rely of what comes up on their FB feed?

The other issue is possibly that instead of people using the internet to find information, there is more motivation to spread it. There is much more information out there which is purely opinion based because people want to be heard, rather than hearing.

...kind of like what I'm doing right now...
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Old 19-07-2017, 01:03 AM   #19
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Ben,

You seem to listen.

At least you read. Do you defend what you do?
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Old 19-07-2017, 04:44 AM   #20
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Do you defend what you do?
More and more these days. The more I read and understand, the more comfortable I become with my position, and the more I am prepared and willing to defend it. That becomes easier as I continue to develop and understand what my position is, which is ongoing. It will no doubt evolve as more information presents itself.

I feel if I can defend it to other therapists, then I can defend it with patients (who are generally more accepting). I think that's what appeals to me about SS. The more I can discuss these things, the better I can defend it.

Not being someone who typically relishes conflict, I find myself looking for opportunities to defend the premise under which I work.
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Old 19-07-2017, 04:46 AM   #21
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If I saw a unicorn, I'm not sure if I'd trust it.

I don't think I'd find its existence understandable or defensible.
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