DNM Seminar with Diane Jacobs, PT

[PYOGAT]

Great course...great materials...thanks for your selfless study, info, sharing and teaching Diane. Great job by Jason and Rajam.
Gotta get that Somaposium or Somapalooza thing goin' on in the near future...maybe next year...maybe Minneapolis...or San Diego...it's not the worst place to hold a seminar.

It was interesting getting perspectives on treatment from massage therapists. Robert

[tonyf315]

Robert I thought I saw you in the Facebook pix!
I agree about MN! Now that I will be a Ministry employee like you maybe there can be a "corporate" effort to get Diane to the Northwoods!

[Diane]

I would be willing to discuss such a thing more than I was a few years ago.

[PYOGAT]

Hey Tony...I think I suggested that in the "Hodag I or II" threads after Barrett was up here...his course was excellent and changed the way I practice. The timing then wasn't quite right for Diane. Anyway, who knows what the future holds...

Good luck at your new job...Ministry is lucky to have you. Robert

[PYOGAT]

Hey Diane...Our facility just booked a Maitland course for Nov. but there are several facilities with different options...but just remember..."If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but..." Robert

[Diane]

Thanks for the reminder.

[John W]

Man, Diane, you are looking svelte in that photo!

Gotta get that Somaposium or Somapalooza thing goin' on in the near future...maybe next year...maybe Minneapolis...or San Diego...it's not the worst place to hold a seminar.

Robert,
I'm good with "Somaposium"- don't get me started on the "-palooza" suffix...

[Diane]

Here is a link to a reflection on the workshop. Just so things are linked up to each other.

[Anthony Distano]

Diane,

Is the DNM seminar open to chiropractors?

[Diane]

It's open to chiropractors who are no longer chiropractors.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

It's open to chiropractors who are no longer chiropractors.

I am a chiropractor. Does that mean I cannot attend your seminar?

[Diane]

Not with permission from me.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

Not with permission from me.

What is the reason?

[Diane]

Oh, a history of elbowing aside all other health care professions to grabgrabgrab, things like this where suddenly chiropractors act like they invented exercise and all its benefits never citing any of the countless shoulders upon which they have leaped, stomping on PT to prevent it reaching full autonomy (although admittedly the medical profession, in the US at least, is just as bad), refusing to answer straightforward questions, basic humbuggery, causing strokes, etcetc.

I'm sure there's more than just these few; I'll post more as I think of them.

[Anthony Distano]

How does that work then, for future reference, if the 1st annual somaposium i rescheduled? I believe when I asked, the conference was multidisciplinary.

[Diane]

I didn't organize that, or have any input into who could or couldn't attend, so it was out of my hands. If multiple presenters have no objection, that's one situation. If it's my own workshop, and I have a choice, that's entirely another and I will exert it.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

Oh, a history of elbowing aside all other health care professions to grabgrabgrab, things like this where suddenly chiropractors act like they invented exercise and all its benefits never citing any of the countless shoulders upon which they have leaped, stomping on PT to prevent it reaching full autonomy (although admittedly the medical profession, in the US at least, is just as bad), refusing to answer straightforward questions, basic humbuggery, causing strokes, etcetc.

I'm sure there's more than just these few; I'll post more as I think of them.

OK, but I elbowed no one nor made any claims like you referenced. I respect all health care professions/professionals. Why would you hold me, as an individual trying to better himself, accountable for actions of others?

[Diane]

Um, because of the branch of the human primate social grooming tree you have decided to represent.
For which I happen to have no respect. Nothing personal. I'm sure you're a nice person.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

I didn't organize that, or have any input into who could or couldn't attend, so it was out of my hands. If multiple presenters have no objection, that's one situation. If it's my own workshop, and I have a choice, that's entirely another and I will exert it.

Sorry, I am a little slow. So, just to be clear, if you present at the re-scheduled annual somaposium, I will be allowed to attend your workshop. But not able to attend your workshop if it is not in conjunction with others. Do I have that right?

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Anthony Distano

Sorry, I am a little slow. So, just to be clear, if you present at the re-scheduled annual somaposium, I will be allowed to attend your workshop. But not able to attend your workshop if it is not in conjunction with others. Do I have that right?

Yes.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

Um, because of the branch of the human primate social grooming tree you have decided to represent.
For which I happen to have no respect. Nothing personal. I'm sure you're a nice person.

What is with this "human primate social grooming tree" phrase? I do not take your comments personally. Yes, I am a nice person as I am sure you are.

Originally Posted by Diane

Yes.

OK, that makes absolutely no sense. Sorry. Why would you agree to that?

[Diane]

Please read post 65, including all the links.

[Diane]

Human primate social grooming.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

Oh, a history of elbowing aside all other health care professions to grabgrabgrab, things like this where suddenly chiropractors act like they invented exercise and all its benefits never citing any of the countless shoulders upon which they have leaped, stomping on PT to prevent it reaching full autonomy (although admittedly the medical profession, in the US at least, is just as bad), refusing to answer straightforward questions, basic humbuggery, causing strokes, etcetc.

I'm sure there's more than just these few; I'll post more as I think of them.

So you agreed to allow chiropractors (under some circumstances) into your seminar for the reasons you listed above (post 65)? Again, doesn't make sense to me.

[Diane]

It depends on whether I have any locus of control.

If I am invited to present somewhere, as one of several, then I do not have locus of control. It's like being invited to a dinner party. I am expected to contribute and be a good guest, no matter what sort of people turn up there.

If it's my dinner party, then I have control of the guest list.

It is really that simple.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

It depends on whether I have any locus of control.

If I am invited to present somewhere, as one of several, then I do not have locus of control. It's like being invited to a dinner party. I am expected to contribute and be a good guest, no matter what sort of people turn up there.

If it's my dinner party, then I have control of the guest list.

It is really that simple.

See, I would think on principle you would decline the invitation (and have the locus of control by doing so), knowing full well you might have to teach/interact with (using operator/interactor model) a person who is a member of the "human primate social grooming tree" that represents a group that you have no respect for...but that is just my opinion. I think deep down you really do like chiropractors

[Bas Asselbergs]

Anthony, I had the same stance as Diane. I taught rehab workshops for the AAOM and CAOM for years and when I was part of the Annual conference line-up, I taught whooever was there. MDs, MTs, DOs, DCs, PTs.
When we organized a separate weekend course NOT under the umbrella of the associations, we limited attendance as we saw fit. No MTs and no DCs.

For reasons somewhat similar to Diane's and additionally, because in the workshops of the Annual Conferences, we had additional bad experiences with some chiros. (for instance: trying to sell their own courses to participants in MY workshop!)

I now know at least six chiros I would be glad to work with or professionally interact with (Greg Lehman being one of them). But not in the 1990's
Anthony, you have a serious disadvantage in my opinion that you have so many colleagues who - even more than the bozos in my own profession - have made a mockery of professionalism.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs

Anthony, I had the same stance as Diane. I taught rehab workshops for the AAOM and CAOM for years and when I was part of the Annual conference line-up, I taught whooever was there. MDs, MTs, DOs, DCs, PTs.
When we organized a separate weekend course NOT under the umbrella of the associations, we limited attendance as we saw fit. No MTs and no DCs.

For reasons somewhat similar to Diane's and additionally, because in the workshops of the Annual Conferences, we had additional bad experiences with some chiros. (for instance: trying to sell their own courses to participants in MY workshop!)

I now know at least six chiros I would be glad to work with or professionally interact with (Greg Lehman being one of them). But not in the 1990's
Anthony, you have a serious disadvantage in my opinion that you have so many colleagues who - even more than the bozos in my own profession - have made a mockery of professionalism.

Bas,

Thank you for your perspective. I have really enjoyed listening to (podcast) and reading your (along with Jason, Diane, and Barrett) writings on this and another forum that I have "lurked" in over the last year or two. You will never find me defending my profession for its wrong doing (who can logically). Yes, the points you and Diane brought up are accurate and I have witnessed this (obviously) being a part of the profession. But, I think it is wrong to hold individuals accountable for actions of a group (seems like issues involving racism). I went in to chiropractic for one reason and it sure was not to correct subluxation, but to help pain in pain. I loved the hands-on nature of my profession. I never knew manual therapy was even an option in physical therapy until the last several years (my best friend is a Maitland trained DPT). When I sprained my MCL in senior year of football (ahhh the good old days) I went to a PT group for rehab...I was just a number on a back table doing SLRs and table exercise, when done got ice and that was it. Little interaction and no manual therapy (not that there was anything wrong with the active care offered looking back). During that time I also went to a chiropractor (for neck and back). The thing/s that stuck with me (and led me to my career choice) was the hands on treatment/interaction, the freedom to work in my own practice one on one with people (didn't know PTs could practice that way too), and the possibility of helping a diverse population of patients. I never even considered PT as a profession for me (I never really knew what PT truly was). There was never talk to me about subluxation under my chiro. Going into school I didn't really know there was such a split in the profession nor the underlying problems of the profession. Needless to say I discovered all of this in school (maybe should have done more research). Does that mean I should cancel my license, become an osteopath, and wish I went to PT school? Heck no! I embrace the issues and do the best I can (as an individual) to better myself and my profession as it's presented to each individual in my community and each patient who walks through my door. I align myself with like-minded individuals and have been welcomed by professionals for my open-mindedness and willingness to learn/change. I stand by my choice and do not regret becoming a chiropractor because: Everyday I get to perform hands on treatment/interaction, I have the freedom to work in my own practice one on one with people (1 hour consult 30 min follow up), and help a diverse population of patients. Nothing has changed for me on that end. Plus, I do not have to rely in referral and am able take x-rays, order advanced imaging and electrodiagnostic testing (which I personally like having as an option when warranted. The initials after my name has allowed me to do that. Maybe I am naive but even knowing the issues inter/intra professionally after graduation it never bothered me because in my office chiropractic is what I say it is (as I expressed previously). In my world ("functional rehab" community.....FMS, SFMA, Liebenson) chiros and PTs have more in common than different and welcome interacting with and learning from one another. I see the "best" of the chiro (and PT) profession (IMO), so this is promising even if it still is a minority (on the chiro end). I thought being aligned with the "functional rehab" community was the best and only place I needed to be, until I found the "pain science community (soma). The chiropractic community is slowly evolving (albeit it into a bio-mechanical model) and for that I am glad (would be nice to evlove to a BPS model though). You will always have "extremists" within the profession, I do not think that will ever fully change. So, like I did with "functional rehab" I wished to be as much a part of disussions/seminars offered in this community as possible. I am not sure how many others share Diane's view (of no respect for chiropractors) on here but I hope is not many. I would never ask individuals to stand up for chiropractic or try to justify the faults, but I would hope for individuals to respect other individuals who deserve it. Bas, hopefully I will meet up with you at some point (maybe somaposium) and maybe someday I could be added to your list. Sorry for the long post, I realize I might have went off on a little tangent.

[Diane]

On the contrary, thank you for your effort to dissociate yourself from the rest of the herd.

I used to not teach anyone but PTs. No massage therapists either. I saw them all as hopelessly mired into and defensive of woo. Karen Lines changed my mind on that back in 2007. She persuaded me to let her into a small class I was teaching in Vancouver. Todd Hargrove (rolfer) asked to attend too. I'm so very glad now, that I let them both attend.

Since then I've met many massage therapists and have good friends among them. Now I can see how it's likely a good investment of my time and energy, to teach to cluey massage therapists who are tired of all the woo and want something a bit more substantial in their mental diet.

I'm not there yet with chiropractic/tors. However, I obviously am capable of being persuaded by individuals. It would require my being approached without any alpha male BS.

[Anthony Distano]

Originally Posted by Diane

On the contrary, thank you for your effort to dissociate yourself from the rest of the herd.

I used to not teach anyone but PTs. No massage therapists either. I saw them all as hopelessly mired into and defensive of woo. Karen Lines changed my mind on that back in 2007. She persuaded me to let her into a small class I was teaching in Vancouver. Todd Hargrove (rolfer) asked to attend too. I'm so very glad now, that I let them both attend.

Since then I've met many massage therapists and have good friends among them. Now I can see how it's likely a good investment of my time and energy, to teach to cluey massage therapists who are tired of all the woo and want something a bit more substantial in their mental diet.

I'm not there yet with chiropractic/tors. However, I obviously am capable of being persuaded by individuals. It would require my being approached without any alpha male BS.

Well, that is good to hear Diane I hope to be the individual you mention in the future as the person that helped to reconceptualize your view of respecting and teaching individual chiropractors

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Anthony Distano

Well, that is good to hear Diane I hope to be the individual you mention in the future as the person that helped to reconceptualize your view of respecting and teaching individual chiropractors

Hard to say.

[Tirving]

I totally understand your stances (Bas and Diane). It's good to know though, if I was available a couple of weeks ago, I would have registered for the San Diego DNM seminar (I got married the week before). I know Diane doesn't have a very good opinion of DCs but I wasn't aware that she does not want us in her class. I respect that, I have taught quite a few CEs on nutrition to DCs and other docs and often the DCs represent themselves as one small notch above used car salesmen

As Diane stated (paraphrase), we chose to represent this profession.... I hope that we can influence it, or at least a subgroup of the profession. There seems to be plenty who are into functional rehab and manual medicine techniques but not many who know about the topics, techniques and ideas presented on this site and in courses like DNM, SC, and to some extent, GMI and neurodynamics.

I'm sure the PT profession has members with less then stellar professionalism although I'd have to say that in all the classes I have taken and taught with PT participants, I definitely don't see as many peddling courses. I often wonder why there are so many DCs peddling courses on topics that they have not pioneered and not as many PTs doing it, maybe it has something to do with PT courses having more regulations??? DC CE is not well regulated, many states require that DC CE is "approved" by a DC school.... This is a racket, there are no educational or science-based standards in this process and it amounts to the school getting a certain amount of money for each participant. How does the PT profession deal with CE classes?

I guess now I know to ask abut any "no DC" policies for courses announced on this site
Maybe make us wear a scarlet DC on our shirts during the class (that would actually be funny, I'd be willing to do it for laughs)

I would ask that those of you who seem to have strong feelings against the DC profession not take it out on those of us who are trying to evolve. Also, you may have experienced the worst of our profession so your perspective may be a little skewed.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Tirving

I'm sure the PT profession has members with less then stellar professionalism

For sure.

although I'd have to say that in all the classes I have taken and taught with PT participants, I definitely don't see as many peddling courses. I often wonder why there are so many DCs peddling courses on topics that they have not pioneered and not as many PTs doing it, maybe it has something to do with PT courses having more regulations???

Having put my toes into the pool, I have caught a glimpse of what a $$racket teaching can be turned into, especially with all the levels and trademarking and certification that has to be renewed annually (more $$ coming in..) which is why manual therapy turned into a situation for greedy people to rake in $$ by turning every little HPSG way of placing hands here or there, into an "institute". So the "founder" can go off and buy a private island somewhere nice.
It isn't only DCs who do this. But you have to admit, chiro is a sales training with "wellness care" as the product it sells, and manual therapy, just because it's more of a verb than a noun, can become a bottomless pit of made-up nouns to describe it, each of which can be leveraged into maximal money extraction, lending itself well to DC exploitation.

DC CE is not well regulated, many states require that DC CE is "approved" by a DC school.... This is a racket, there are no educational or science-based standards in this process and it amounts to the school getting a certain amount of money for each participant.

Oh yeah..

How does the PT profession deal with CE classes?

I think it's a constant battle trying to stay on top of it all with some sort of organizing/credentialing. I know we succeeded a number of years ago in stopping advertising (at least) of the most woo-ish international "institutes", in CPA publications.

There is officially sanctioned training, which has resulted in black belt ortho training. I don't particularly favour that either.

[Tirving]

Diane,
I hope you're not too put-off by the whole process, your class (and others like it) needs to exist. I think, where everyone goes wrong is when they start erroneously crunching numbers. Let's say I am going to do a class next weekend at $299 a head for an 8 hour class. Let's say I also have 10 people chomping at the bit to take it. $2990 for the day......

Hmm, if I could put together a 2 day class for $550 and fill it with 20 participant, that's $11000 for the weekend. Then it just goes crazy, charging more, having multiple weekend courses, etc. The next thing you know, the technique peddler is looked at as a god by their minion teachers, they don't practice anymore..... Why would a god need to practice? And they start believing and even worse, teaching their rationalizations as fact.

Here's a more sound alternative, do a few courses in a year, prepare well for them, update your info regularly and deepen your knowledge by having a practice in which you use, refine and succeed with the technique. You're not going to buy a private island, or a private jet, but you'll make some good money teaching your craft, maybe even enough to lessen your work load altogether and enjoy life a bit more.

Later on, if it seems like the demand is there, find other who you've mentored, help them teach some classes and grow your technique in a way where you make money, they make good money and you teach others a valuable clinical skill.

In this scenario, you can still make quite a bit of money, it will just take longer, and you probably won't make as much as some people think.

Eventually, you can supplement by writing a textbook (that will be used in lieu of note packets in your courses) being a guest lecturer, etc. but if you keep it all real, and down to earth, you will be comfortable with the direction this progress takes you and you won't feel compromised. Granted, not many people have done this, that doesn't make it impossible though

[Tirving]

Originally Posted by Diane

It isn't only DCs who do this. But you have to admit, chiro is a sales training with "wellness care" as the product it sells, and manual therapy, just because it's more of a verb than a noun, can become a bottomless pit of made-up nouns to describe it, each of which can be leveraged into maximal money extraction, lending itself well to DC exploitation.

True, this is not driven by the profession though, it's driven by a cancer that plagues too many in my profession...... Practice management groups. These groups, for a fee (monthly, yearly, % collected or per patient), come in and give you their systems, train you in them and help you implement them. Their systems are about numbers, not patient care. Most of the time, the numbers have to do with patient volume, not cost per visit. I have been contacted by many of these groups and asked why I am not seeing 350-400 patients a week...... This is a fun conversation to have

The wellness care boom in our profession is driven by them because it gets patients in, keeps them in and recirculates them into different aspects of the clinic (DC "care", massage, acupuncture, nutritional counseling [READ-supplement sales], "exercise", etc).

It's pathetic..... But it's not driven by our boards, or even a majority. Unfortunately, many state boards are really a "good old boys club" so they are not without corrupt ness, greed and general ignorance.

Look at the industrialized world though, no one knows about quality anymore, most are worried about getting the most "bang for your buck". Look at how many people get their produce and food products from Costco and Walmart. Their decision has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with quantity. This plays out in professions too and also in the way certain health care providers get reimbursed by insurance companies. DCs get paid the best for short-duration patient interactions. It's why I don't play that game.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Tirving

do a few courses in a year, prepare well for them, update your info regularly and deepen your knowledge by having a practice in which you use, refine and succeed with the technique. You're not going to buy a private island, or a private jet, but you'll make some good money teaching your craft, maybe even enough to lessen your work load altogether and enjoy life a bit more.

Later on, if it seems like the demand is there, find other who you've mentored, help them teach some classes and grow your technique in a way where you make money, they make good money and you teach others a valuable clinical skill.

In this scenario, you can still make quite a bit of money, it will just take longer, and you probably won't make as much as some people think.

Eventually, you can supplement by writing a textbook (that will be used in lieu of note packets in your courses) being a guest lecturer, etc. but if you keep it all real, and down to earth, you will be comfortable with the direction this progress takes you and you won't feel compromised. Granted, not many people have done this, that doesn't make it impossible though

At the moment, this appears to be the life I'm stepping into cautiously. I didn't choose it. It's just the next thing in front of me, a large lake to have to figure out how to swim across to get to the other side. I blame it all on the internet for making learning/writing so much more interesting than it used to be, and for creating wonderful places like this for meeting likeminded people.

I view this second approach to teaching you have described as the "less wrong" approach, definitely the more preferable. I doubt there is much money in it at all.

I hope the racketeers and their "institutes" go extinct.

[Barrett Dorko]

When I was teaching for the large corporations they called the shots. Their leverage, of course, was the fact that they were paying for all the travel, lodging and meals. I was to simply show up and deliver information as I felt it was relevant and appropriate. In the end, I had accumulated well over 6000 students.

I almost never knew what they did for a living, but almost universally they knew nothing about pain science and hadn't read anything since leaving school.

Eventually, I had to ask myself whether it made a difference if a variety of disciplines were all pretty much in the same boat.

It didn't. And I doubt all I offered had much of an impact.

Funny thing though.

I want to do it again.

[Tirving]

Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko

When I was teaching for the large corporations they called the shots. Their leverage, of course, was the fact that they were paying for all the travel, lodging and meals. I was to simply show up and deliver information as I felt it was relevant and appropriate. In the end, I had accumulated well over 6000 students.

I almost never knew what they did for a living, but almost universally they knew nothing about pain science and hadn't read anything since leaving school.

Eventually, I had to ask myself whether it made a difference if a variety of disciplines were all pretty much in the same boat.

It didn't. And I doubt all I offered had much of an impact.

Funny thing though.

I want to do it again.

I'd love to have both of you come to Portland, between DCs, PTs and LMTs, the should be quite a big market. I would suggest coming up with a book, books and/or papers to read before attending and maybe an online quiz to take on brain/pain science. This could help bring everyone up to speed, at least, with the basics and language.

[Tirving]

Originally Posted by Diane

I view this second approach to teaching you have described as the "less wrong" approach, definitely the more preferable. I doubt there is much money in it at all.

Lol! Always the skeptic

I think this is probably the ethical way to go, not "less wrong". There could be decent money in it but the course schedule has to be "grass roots" coming from therapists, clinicians and doctors who want to bring your class to various areas. You're already marketing yourself well with information blog and forum posts, once these get distributed a bit more online, you will have a steady stream of interest in what you have to teach, I'm confident in this

[Diane]

Except, I really don't like traveling. I don't need the stress. It takes me days to get back to normal after being herded around in airports and on and off cramped planes, where one sits, cramped, for hours. Ack.

[Richard Finn]

I think letting anyone into courses would help them cross the chasm. This needs to happen across all disciplines. How do we change things if only certain people are allowed to change?

[Tirving]

Originally Posted by Richard Finn

I think letting anyone into courses would help them cross the chasm. This needs to happen across all disciplines. How do we change things if only certain people are allowed to change?

I've been and taught courses where "the wrong people" we're allowed to register; it can really detract from the course and bring it down a bit. I can understand both sides of the debate.

[Richard Finn]

Originally Posted by Tirving

I've been and taught courses where "the wrong people" we're allowed to register; it can really detract from the course and bring it down a bit. I can understand both sides of the debate.

I have had the same observation. Perhaps prerequisites might be in order. I would think a reading list and quiz based on that list might be useful. Perhaps a phone interview would be useful. I've been to those classes (we all have) were anyone with a check that clears is accepted. They often don't turn out well.