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Old 08-05-2005, 12:15 PM   #1
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Default Clinical Neurodynamics By Michael Shacklock

Hi SomaSimplers,

Here is a link to the book by Michael Shacklock



Clinical Neurodynamics
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Old 15-06-2005, 07:17 AM   #2
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Clinical neurodynamics has been excellent for me in answering many of the technical questions about the topic that I have accumulated. It provides a treatment model, catagorization of the problems, and a framework for progression. It is very peripheral in nature, but in my opinion, this is where the other available reading has been lacking. I recently read the sensitive nervous system, and most of the questions I was left with, were addressed in this book.

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Old 15-09-2005, 05:06 PM   #3
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[flash]http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/tension_01.swf[/flash]

Figure 1.2 : Generation of tension as a primary mechanical function of neural tissue. (page 5)
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If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Old 24-03-2007, 07:17 PM   #4
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ce model est super en as tu d'autre

amicalement
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Old 24-03-2007, 08:08 PM   #5
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Yeah, what he said.


This book is complex, but as Cory notes, it really answers some of the more complicated questions about the mechanics of nerve tissue and provides a paradigm for evaluation/treatment.

I used to see the body as a system of levers and muscles. Party because of this book, I now see it as a network of nerves, primarily. They're the sensitive structures after all...
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Old 20-11-2008, 03:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNMBLA View Post
ce model est super en as tu d'autre

amicalement
I'm trying a new 3D sofware for animation.
Attached Files
File Type: swf nerve_elongation_2.swf (835.5 KB, 106 views)
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Old 20-11-2008, 05:34 PM   #7
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Can't open the file.
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Old 20-11-2008, 06:02 PM   #8
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You need flash player
http://www.adobe.com/go/getflash
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Old 20-11-2008, 08:26 PM   #9
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Thanks for the tip Bernard. I couldn't open it before either.
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Old 20-11-2008, 08:28 PM   #10
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no, still won't open.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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Old 20-11-2008, 09:18 PM   #11
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No matter what, it just opens up adobe illustrator.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 21-11-2008, 06:51 AM   #12
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Try this link:
www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/nerve_elongation_2.swf
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We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Old 21-11-2008, 07:00 AM   #13
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Nice!
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 21-11-2008, 07:14 AM   #14
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A first trial that took 5 minutes to be achieved.
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We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Old 22-11-2008, 08:43 AM   #15
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Here is another trial.
http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/nerve_bend_01.swf
http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/nerve_bend_02.swf
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Last edited by bernard; 22-11-2008 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:19 PM   #16
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I borrowed the German edition of the book from our school library today.
Hope I'll have the chance to read it in the coming weeks...and will report back if I make it.
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:20 AM   #17
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I am curious, but as an MT my formal training in this stuff was... rather limited. Before leaping into the deep end with this text, could you recommend some appropriate preparatory reading?

"Not stupid, just ignorant."
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:01 PM   #18
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Some appropriate prep reading would be Sensitive Nervous System by David Butler. But really, I think Michael covers the basics very well.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 01-04-2009, 04:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
"Not stupid, just ignorant."
I myself often display both, depending on the topic (to which my wife could likely attest). Hopefully, I limit the danger I pose by not being ignorant of my ignorance nor stupid with my stupidity.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:01 PM   #20
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I brought the book back.
I am not, contrary to the majority here I guess, going to buy this book.
I had the German version of it, so maybe this is different in the original version, but what takes getting used to was the writing style.
We were actually wondering about some of the sentences, because they were so overloaded with words and...well, how to say that in English...cryptic ?

I am a big fan of good rhetoric and it still bothers me a lot that I can't also display this in English, but there were sentences I read multiple times...
I may have gotten what he wanted to say the first time, but I just couldn't believe someone would write like that....maybe the translation should be done again or the author just likes to write like this, I don't know.
Other than that, what I read was interesting, but sadly almost never "straight to the point".
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:48 PM   #21
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Micheal Shacklock is in Montreal for a 4 day seminar in June. It will cost around 1000$. I was wondering if it was worth the money or if I should just buy the book. Any of you have taken his seminars ?
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:36 PM   #22
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Jens

Neither Butler's nor Shacklock's book is easy reading, unless you have a reasonably good background in neurophysiology. Perhaps translation into German loses meaning as well, as happens with many books.

If you have read Butler's 'Explain Pain', that should help quite a lot.
Quote:
...but sadly almost never "straight to the point".
Possibly attending a course is better because it is so visual. The cost is a bit awesome, though. I've not been to one of Shacklock's courses.

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Old 01-04-2009, 10:32 PM   #23
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Sounds like the price has gone up a LOT. In 2005 it was something like 5 or 600.
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 01-04-2009, 11:41 PM   #24
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Jens,
As a native American English speaker, I can sympathize with some of your criticism of Shacklock's prose style. I think he is verbose at times in this book, and it seems like there is some overly repetitious content.

However, as a tool for accurately applying clinical neurodynamics to determine the presence and region of mechanosensitivity in the nervous system, the book is invaluable. My book came with a CD-ROM demonstrating the techniques, which I think is worth the price of the book in itself.

History and initial presentation of the patient are not always so clear-cut when it comes to whether the patient's condition is predominantly mechanical or chemical in origin. Shacklock's descriptions and demonstrations of the testing procedures have been helpful to me in making this distinction in some difficult cases.

I'd buy the book with the CD-ROM.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Shacklock's descriptions and demonstrations of the testing procedures have been helpful to me in making this distinction in some difficult cases.--John W.
Hi John,

I'd be interested in reading more about your experiences in this regard.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
predominantly mechanical or chemical in origin
As Jon is, I'am also interested in reading more about your experiences


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Old 02-04-2009, 12:49 PM   #27
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I'll second John's experiences with the book and utility of neurodynamics. It has been an excellent addition to my assessment and treatment approaches. Those "mysterious" cases get a lot less so with the addition of the testing. In addition to the mechanosensitivity of the peripheral nerves themselves, I think they can provide some insight into more central phenomena such as temporal summation.

I don't recommend using them for this frequently as it can be pretty miserable, but it does give you some notion of how much of the pain is peripherally vs centrally maintained. My opinions of course.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nari View Post
Jens

Neither Butler's nor Shacklock's book is easy reading, unless you have a reasonably good background in neurophysiology. Perhaps translation into German loses meaning as well, as happens with many books.

If you have read Butler's 'Explain Pain', that should help quite a lot.

Possibly attending a course is better because it is so visual. The cost is a bit awesome, though. I've not been to one of Shacklock's courses.

Nari
I have "Explain Pain" (in German).
For those in Europe: Shacklock gives a course in June in Austria, € 380. 2x 3d, but it's not clearly described on the homepage, if you have to pay 2x 380€ or not (upper/lower course)
http://www.fortbildungsakademie.at/
They're A LOT of neuromob courses in Germany you can take (e.g. NOI Group instructors)


John,
his writing style just turns me off too much.
I'll probably take courses instead.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:45 AM   #29
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Jon and Marc,

I don't think my use of neurodynamic assessment is particularly insightful in differentiating the origin of pain. We all have those patients who don't provide a particularly useful history of their condition, no matter how skillfully you try to elicit relevant information.

Simply performing a well-sequenced slump test has been very valuable in helping to "cut to the chase" in identifying mechanosensitivity in the area of the patient's general complaints.

I recently had a patient like this who was very vague about aggravating factors, night time pain, etc, and he had a history of prostate cancer and well as lumbar surgery. The slump test helped to produce symptoms that the patient recognized and also showed loss of ROM that was consistent with the patient's previous lumbar/sciatica history. These findings somewhat eased my concern that something more sinister might be at play.

I had to perform the test in various sequences, ensuring proper technique as described by Shacklock to get this information. Is there a chance that a non-mechanical problem is elevating mechanosensitivity in the region of this patients complaint? I think that's certainly possible. But if that's the case, then purely movement-based interventions would provide limited enduring relief of his pain. In this particular case, I've already alerted the referring physician of my concerns.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:12 PM   #30
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Jens, I'd read this book in Spanish and I think the translate is quite good. I think that it's a nice tool for identifying what can be happen with the nerve and it gives us a clear explanation about mechanical and chemical influences on the nerve very useful when you are beginning with neurodinamic concept, however, when you use this knowledge in a patient things are much more difficult.

After reading this book, you can try to think how injury (mechanical or chemical) is acting on the brain or how brain is acting on pain... I guess this book is focused on peripheral factors but you can integrate it easily with all that you know about CNS mechanisms (using i.e. "Explain Pain"), do you know what I mean?

Regards.
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Old 04-04-2009, 01:32 AM   #31
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Hi John W.;

I think for most people, they have some disc degeneration and they go on a long drive. They develop some sciatica. We show them some sliders and they get better. With cancer, my understanding is, the pain is much greater. Most men end up with prostate cancer which needs no treatment. We'll still need to do those sliders though,the back pain won't go away on its own. Nerves still need TLC. But your right it's good to be suspicious.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:57 PM   #32
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Unless the book maybe - which I found very clear and a good explanation of the principle of neurodynamics - the course is very well 'to the point' and high speed explanation of theoretical background, demonstration and hands-on practice. There are not many courses which are more structured and effective than the neurodynamics courses. There are 2 courses (an upper and lower quarter 2day course) in the Netherlands in English in november 2009. I would recommend it!
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Old 27-04-2009, 07:46 PM   #33
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Is there a new edition of this in the works?

It seems many of the usual online dealers of this book (in the United States, anyway) either do not have the book in stock anymore or have increased the price.
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Old 27-04-2009, 08:02 PM   #34
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Scott, you could always order it direct from Michael.
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Old 28-05-2009, 07:16 AM   #35
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Scott, you could always order it direct from Michael.
Here =>
http://www.neurodynamicsolutions.com/fax.php
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Old 24-05-2010, 05:42 PM   #36
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I have this book now and try to read it. lol
Should I read another books, which construct the indepth of the foundation of neurodynamic for me?
I like this viewpoints and that is different for my clinical thinkings.
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Old 25-05-2010, 01:32 PM   #37
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Lin,

The Sensitive Nervous System by David Butler provides more in depth detail of the neurophysiological processes involved in the abnormal neurodynamic.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:06 PM   #38
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I am curious, but as an MT my formal training in this stuff was... rather limited. Before leaping into the deep end with this text, could you recommend some appropriate preparatory reading?

"Not stupid, just ignorant."
Others have mentioned Explain Pain. That is the first step. I would then go to this DVD:

http://www.amazon.com/Neurodynamic-T...s=David+Butler

It is Neuro Dynamic Techniques. It has a small booklet that easily categorizes the tests and give bullet point information. I would then go to The Sensitive Nervous System. I marked mine up. New words I with explanations I highlighted and listed in the back so that I could keep looking things up and not miss the flow or the details of the book. This made it much easier when I actually made a lot of sense of the book the second time around. Hope this helps!

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Old 11-09-2012, 02:25 PM   #39
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Jake pointed out to me that David Butler is coming to Canada. He will be in Toronto on October 6th. I am thinking about going, course cost is $250.00
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Old 30-01-2014, 08:30 PM   #40
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Jake pointed out to me that David Butler is coming to Canada.
Hmm - I understood David was semi retired and backing down on teaching. Must be something about Canada...

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Old 30-01-2014, 08:44 PM   #41
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He's going to be in Atlanta next month. Can't go.
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Old 30-01-2014, 08:49 PM   #42
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Jake pointed out to me that David Butler is coming to Canada. He will be in Toronto on October 6th. I am thinking about going, course cost is $250.00
$250 is a real deal!!
In BC sometimes his classes were close to a thousand. I wrote to him and complained, and he said the cost was set not by him but by the sponsor, which I think was UBC cont ed at the time. That was in 2006.
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Old 30-01-2014, 11:51 PM   #43
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His course in Atlanta is $650, which is one of the reasons I can't go. $250 is a helluva bargain. I wouldn't pass it up if I were in a day's driving distance, which I'm not.
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Old 31-01-2014, 12:09 AM   #44
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There does seem to be a big difference in fees - I did get to see Lorimer Moseley for a measely £25 a couple of years ago due to the way the hosts organised and ran the event - not for profit.

ANdy
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Old 31-01-2014, 03:17 AM   #45
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The $250 course was a one day GMI course. It was OK

Of interest he talked about having his patients move their arms even when it was uncomfortable (say for "tennis elbow) but then said even though there was discomfort/pain there wasn't nociception. I asked how he knew. It never got resolved

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Old 16-05-2014, 11:45 AM   #46
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I just started reading the German edition of "Clinical Neurodynamics" and stumbled upon the term "Kingery-effect" (right in the first chapter, where he talks about the structure of the nervous system, in the last paragraph of segment 1.3).
I couldn't find anything online about that. Is he referring to CRPS?
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Old 16-05-2014, 12:26 PM   #47
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http://www.stanford.edu/group/rrd/Pr.../kingery1.html
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Old 16-05-2014, 12:46 PM   #48
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Aaah, that one I did find - but wasn't sure, whether that was the effect mentioned by Shacklock. Thanks!
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