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Barrett's Forums This discussion is devoted to the latest advances in neuroscience and the clinical phenomena it explains.

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Old 21-09-2015, 04:04 PM   #1
MinkiKimSI
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Default Follow up after NYC workshop

A student introduced a great idea to start a conversation on this thread so we can discuss openly about our personal and patient results applying Simple Contact. Barrett graciously asked folks to join SS and I think it's a great way to discuss and iron out the discomfort we feel right after a workshop in applicability.

I started an email thread involving the entire class recently. Here's what I asked:

'Let's start a discussion on our experience(s) with Simple Contact.

1) How are you guys feeling in your body after the handful of trades in class?

2) Any shifts in perspective, movement, application, methodology, etc?

3) What factor(s) help or detract you from applying Simple Contact with your clients?

4) Any other question I should be asking? Please share.

This morning I feel more comfortable in my body and my skin. I'm self-corrective in the sense that I give myself postural rules from my Structural Integration background. I think Dorko would argue I'm creating my own bodily stress or adapting to our cultural views of healthy posture and vanity. I'm playing around now with the idea of following my body's innate need to move nonconsciously and see how that makes me feel, think, move, create,etc. An example is to let my thoracic spine hinge when walking as I'm always used to imposing conscious control and correcting this position by pushing my chest out. When I allowed it to happen, I felt comfortable and I was able to enjoy the moment.'
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Old 21-09-2015, 04:16 PM   #2
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Quote:
4) Any other question I should be asking? Please share.
Has anyone felt inspired to follow up on some or all of the suggested reading?
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Old 21-09-2015, 04:26 PM   #3
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Has anyone felt inspired to follow up on some or all of the suggested reading?
I've just ordered most of the suggested books. I'm looking forward to them.
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Old 21-09-2015, 10:16 PM   #4
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This is a great idea Minki.

References and books are wonderful to own and have at our fingertips and in our heads. My contention is always twofold - they often lead to confusion and most don't touch them anyway. Perhaps they know in their adulthood that they don't learn that way.

Have I mentioned that I was available to travel and teach?

Not knowing which of the four origins of neurogenic pain (read all pain) is dominating at the moment invites us to speculate about the presence of something invisible. This is why I speak of detection and how pain is an aporia. Like a good magician, the therapist has an "out" and this, paradoxically, is easier to employ if less is read or understood. Maybe that's why references are always asked for but not usually read.

My mind turns to the fact that some things are ungraspable by the human mind and that prediction is troublesome. I try to combat all of this by simplifying what I can.

Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't.

Fortunately, we're self-corrective and have, understandably, mistaken defects for defenses and vice versa. In the time afforded me I try to teach a complex thing. I certainly appreciate how attentive the class was, but the effect of the teaching is little more than an introduction to life-long investigation and discussion.

That's hard to come by. After a week, no one new here has said a word.
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Old 21-09-2015, 11:13 PM   #5
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Perhaps we don't want to sound stupid or offend you by not knowing your source material.

Culturally, we have a reverence for intellectual superiors or masters where we can't shake the nagging fear that we don't know enough. Maybe we have to risk sounding dumb in order to learn and reach the unattainable status of 'mastery'.
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Old 21-09-2015, 11:33 PM   #6
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It's not the first time I've heard that students were intimidated by the therapists here, but I don't think that's what keeps so many silent.

The least they might do is allow us to welcome them.

I've also a lot to say about the "method" I use. "Mastery" is a word I never use.
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Old 21-09-2015, 11:52 PM   #7
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Care to let me in on the suggested book titles? I am curious
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Old 22-09-2015, 12:00 AM   #8
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Perhaps there's a paradigm shift occurring in our thinking of manual care. I know the neurophysiology of pain has drastically altered how I provide care for my clients.

It's difficult not to think mesodermally. I hope we can discuss that here.

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Old 22-09-2015, 12:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MinkiKimSI View Post
Perhaps there's a paradigm shift occurring in our thinking of manual care. I know the neurophysiology of pain has drastically altered how I provide care for my clients.

It's difficult not to think mesodermally. I hope we can discuss that here.

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Yes we can.
You can use the search function to find old threads, which might be a good start.
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Old 22-09-2015, 01:02 AM   #10
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You can use the search function to find old threads, which might be a good start.
It is important, too, to feel comfortable bumping older threads that are relevant, should you feel it beneficial.

It was helpful for me when I first joined the boards.

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Old 22-09-2015, 01:15 AM   #11
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Lasse,

Here's the list of books I suggest to students:

Nonconscious Movements – Herman H. Spitz

The Sensitive Nervous System – David Butler

Clinical Neurodynamics – Michael Shacklock

Pain: The Science of Suffering – Patrick Wall

A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness – V. S. Ramachandran

The Body Has a Mind of Its Own – Sandra and Matthew Blakeslee


On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not – Robert Burton


The Body in Pain: The Making and Unmaking of the World – Elaine Scarry


The Language of Pain – David Biro


The Culture of Pain – David Morris


Moving in On Pain – Edited by Michael Shacklock


The Brain That Changes Itself – Norman Doidge


Supernormal Stimuli – Dierdre Barrett


Illness and Culture in the Postmodern Age – David Morris


Mistakes Were Made (but not by me) – Tavris and Aronson

Many of these have been reviewed here and/or on my website All have been discussed, mainly in Barrett's Forums but elsewhere as well. There's more and I write about other books regularly.

I am trying and failing to send Minki my power point. It's too big. Any ideas?
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Old 22-09-2015, 01:28 AM   #12
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I am trying and failing to send Minki my power point. It's too big. Any ideas?
You have a gmail acct, so you have a google drive account.

You can upload the file to your google drive (cloud storage) and then share a link with Minki.

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Old 22-09-2015, 01:38 AM   #13
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Thanks Keith. I'll try that.
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Old 22-09-2015, 03:17 AM   #14
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In my last email to you Barrett, I wrote some instructions. You can convert the ppt file into a zip file. Then, you can forward it to me.

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Old 23-09-2015, 06:55 PM   #15
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Found this FAQ article is a good refresher on Simple Contact because this method of gentle contact feels so new to some of us.

http://www.barrettdorko.com/articles...le_contact.htm

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Old 23-09-2015, 07:00 PM   #16
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I wrote this many years ago and it's still the case.

Thank you for reminding me of it.
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Old 23-09-2015, 07:00 PM   #17
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And Barrett, have you written any essays on fractals? I've only come across your reading list.

Thanks!

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Old 23-09-2015, 07:16 PM   #18
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He has written lots.
Just enter "fractal" into the search function (in the menu bar up top). Three pages of threads will come up. Look for the ones Barrett started.
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Old 23-09-2015, 07:18 PM   #19
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Minki,

Any word from the others in attendance?
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Old 23-09-2015, 07:18 PM   #20
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Use google - enter 'Barrett Dorko fractals'. You'll get about 1800 possibilities.
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Old 23-09-2015, 08:53 PM   #21
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Thanks Diane! I couldn't use the search function on SS on my phone. Shoulda just used the good ol Google machine. Had a big 'duh' moment.

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Old 23-09-2015, 08:56 PM   #22
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Barrett, no. I've urged them to join SS and bring the discussion /questions/etc. here. Hope this changes.

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Old 23-09-2015, 09:58 PM   #23
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Well, it's very common.

People somehow get through life, and my curiosity and passion are not theirs.

This situation is very much like the cop shows that speak of or are even named after a deadline of sorts. The deadline for the class in New York has long since passed. I enjoyed being there, and I enjoyed coming home.

It's the best I can hope for.
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Old 23-09-2015, 10:19 PM   #24
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I believe you said you'd lean on us millennials to update your cultural references. Perhaps meeting them where they are will pique their interests.

I'm here to help though I declare I'm not a millennial. Still had a land line growing up and my Internet was dialup.

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Old 23-09-2015, 10:38 PM   #25
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This cultural reference thing is a problem not only I face. I recall reading recently that the writers of Saturday Night Live started out in the 70s counting on about 50% of their audience to "get" the joke and that that's down to 10% now. This is no one's fault and the world isn't worse in someway for it - it just is. I've the same problem. Perhaps perspective would be a better word.

No one at any course has suggested how I might update my analogies. I'd use Breaking Bad, but I'm wondering what it has to do with therapy or pain. By now it's dated anyway.

Our attention is scattered. Living as we do in the midst of an ever-changing world of fashion, advertising and design doesn't help that much.

The course in New York was not effective in changing an approach to care because, well, because it didn't make any guarantees and I'm so full of uncertainty, I think.
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Old 24-09-2015, 04:39 AM   #26
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The course in New York was not effective in changing an approach to care because, well, because it didn't make any guarantees and I'm so full of uncertainty, I think.
Although I did not have any opportunity to attent your course, I was wondering what happened as this kind of refelction comes out many times from you and other participants?

Thank you for your time,

Weni

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Old 24-09-2015, 02:05 PM   #27
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weni,

Admittedly, the teachers here are commonly unsuccessful in moving therapists toward thoughtful practice and away from more methods and tools. I can hardly blame the students. They are asked to wait, not know and behave in a way that is markedly counter cultural. But what I suggest can be defended with good evidence. I remain uncertain, and I don't lie about that. Moving as fashion does is something we need to look at more carefully. If people don't know what science has shown us, why should we mention such a thing?

As usual, method needs to be emphasized, I guess. Which is why the final step of putting on the paint is what advertisers show. Those who have ever painted anything know that preparing the surface is probably more important. It's (to me anyway) the boring part.

It doesn't help that I wrote Do Nothing long ago.
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Old 24-09-2015, 06:49 PM   #28
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The course in New York was not effective in changing an approach to care because, well, because it didn't make any guarantees and I'm so full of uncertainty, I think.
Do you feel this way, because by the end of the course, you saw that the attendees were not open to your way of working? Or, do you feel this way because the attendees are not posting on this thread? Or, do you feel this way because you have been told by the attendees that they felt your approach to care was specifically something they never want to embrace in the future?

People are paying good money to listen to you speak. so, I would think the course has to be somewhat effective (as opposed to *not* effiective) for a certain number of people. Otherwise, they would not have plunked down the fee and then stayed throughout the entire thing. They simply would have walked out, if they were not interested, citing money lost, but taken hold of their time (in order to do something more worthwhile). Did they walk out on you?

I am interested to know how you come to a conclusion that your course was *not* effective.

Quote:
"...moving therapists toward thoughtful practice and away from more methods and tools..."
I find that if people are interested enough to put money on the table, then you are probably producing something that makes them to consider working in new ways.

After all, there are plenty of other courses to choose from, and ways to spend ones free time.
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Old 24-09-2015, 06:54 PM   #29
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CO,

No one walks out. I've been teaching and writing for many years. I've also worked in many facilities.

Things are worse than they've ever been.
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Old 24-09-2015, 07:29 PM   #30
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Never have I seen someone walk out of a workshop.

I think I'm making a redundant statement but it might be worth repeating. We've grown so comfortable with our mesodermal ways, that it's hard to leave the nest.

You've planted the seed to think differently. It may not tangible or seen in written word but your contribution is priceless.

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Old 24-09-2015, 08:21 PM   #31
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CO,

No one walks out. I've been teaching and writing for many years. I've also worked in many facilities.

Things are worse than they've ever been.
Well if they aren't walking out, it can't be all bad. Because I can say for a fact, if I pay good money for a class (and classes are not cheap) --- and am not getting something useful from it (unless I am required to be there-- which may be useful for keeping my license up to date) then I have absolutely no issue walking out.

It's of course noted that you have worked in many facilities and that you feel things are going to hell in a handbasket. But, your response seems to move away from what you were specifically talking about --- the New York course. That's what I was trying to ask about.


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You've planted the seed to think differently. It may not tangible or seen in written word but your contribution is priceless.
This is my thought too.
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Old 24-09-2015, 09:13 PM   #32
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Can anyone lead me in the right direction about the characteristics of pain - 1) frequency, 2) duration, 3) intensity, and 4) location. Location being the least telling.

I'd love some more literature on this. It's always a cognitive conflict I've dealt with when clients this the problem is based at the location of pain sensation(s).

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Old 24-09-2015, 09:33 PM   #33
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Can anyone lead me in the right direction about the characteristics of pain - 1) frequency, 2) duration, 3) intensity, and 4) location. Location being the least telling.

I'd love some more literature on this. It's always a cognitive conflict I've dealt with when clients this the problem is based at the location of pain sensation(s).

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It's variable, which doesn't make it easy to study.
Try the search function here. We have masses of info about it, about the nervous system. Just plow in and start reading.
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Old 24-09-2015, 10:56 PM   #34
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Minki,

I don't think you're going to find any literature on it. Location is important to the one suffering, but that's (I assume) because they're driven by the culture, which includes therapy for pain and all its tools, to attend to it first and foremost. It must be acknowledged, but it doesn't drive care. Well, not in my hands anyway.

That question, "If one is no pain at all..." displays a massive misunderstanding of the output of pain and confuses the daylights out of me, to say nothing of the person suffering.
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Old 25-09-2015, 12:39 AM   #35
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Minki,

Oh yes, I always say, "Pain has four aspects (location, frequency, duration and intensity), not characteristics.

I really don't know the difference between an aspect and a characteristic.

Please don't tell anyone.
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Old 25-09-2015, 12:44 AM   #36
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Thanks for differentiating, not clarifying. ☺

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Old 25-09-2015, 03:00 AM   #37
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Can anyone lead me in the right direction about the [S]characteristics[/S] (aspects) of pain - 1) frequency, 2) duration, 3) intensity, and 4) location. Location being the least telling.

I'd love some more literature on this. It's always a cognitive conflict I've dealt with when clients this the problem is based at the location of pain sensation(s).
Hi MinkiKimSI,

I tried to locate some threads that discuss your question, so that you may have an easier time getting around on the forums.


Granted, I'm not really all that academic, so someone may come up with something a lot better than what I have pulled. I am just fairly good at searches sometimes.Also, regarding Simple Contact, there are two threads I can think of that you may like: this one and then this other thread may be an interesting read if you are just looking for more input. I started my questions for discussion at post #178 on page 4 (BTW, it took me some time to realize that each post made in a thread has a number --- look at the top right hand corner --- which allows you to easier see what people are talking about sometimes, when they notate a post number). I freely admit that sometimes I have to ask over and over again, in different ways, until I understand a little better. So, I hope that doesn't make my section of the thread too difficult to wade through. I've come to accept that I can be annoying.
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Old 25-09-2015, 11:31 PM   #38
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This is a helpful thread for those fresh off an SC workshop - https://www.somasimple.com/forums/sh...t=16690&page=2

Curious One - you were fresh off barrett's workshop on this thread. I'm curious about application of SC has developed for you? Thanks for all the links BTW! This forum is quite the rabbit hole

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Old 26-09-2015, 01:28 AM   #39
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Curious One - you were fresh off barrett's workshop on this thread.
Actually, I have never been in one of Barrett's workshops. My husband became quite ill at the time a workshop was planned for my state and I was unable to make the commitment to attend.
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Old 26-09-2015, 01:00 PM   #40
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Nope, never met CO. Her avatar still creeps me out, but I'm from Ohio, where few wombats reside.
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Old 26-09-2015, 07:37 PM   #41
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Nope, never met CO. Her avatar still creeps me out, but I'm from Ohio, where few wombats reside.
Not sure why a little orphaned animal happily enjoying the company of another, creeps you out.

Both were 3-4 months old when their mothers were killed by vehicles. There was also a 5-month old baby wallaby, Cupcake, who lost her mother to an auto-accident around the same time. More (including Peggy's release into the wild) can be found here: http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...rn-to-the-wild

Maybe once you read the story, you will choose to no longer be "creeped out".
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Old 26-09-2015, 07:41 PM   #42
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Barrett, is it just on my end that the links to your essays are dead?

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Old 26-09-2015, 08:09 PM   #43
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Minki,

You're not wrong. Working on it.

CO,

I take back everything and have now made a poster of your avatar.
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Old 27-09-2015, 01:45 AM   #44
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Barrett,

You mention to read the "How are you feeling" thread by Karen Line. I've put this in the search bar and I'm not getting many results.

Is this hidden in all the subforums that I somehow can't find?
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Old 27-09-2015, 02:37 AM   #45
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Here.

Minki, You're working hard.
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Old 28-09-2015, 10:55 PM   #46
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Wow! Karen line's thread is just beautiful.

A big shout out to her!

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Old 28-09-2015, 11:05 PM   #47
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Karen's left us. I certainly don't know why, but I wish her the best.

Anyway, the "beauty" she put into her thought and posts seems unmatched. Perhaps she saw the same in her work.

Minki, Perhaps you see something similar. From the NY course, you're it as far as posting goes.
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Old 28-09-2015, 11:10 PM   #48
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I'll continue to share threads which I might find helpful for the others. Guess they'll post when they're ready.

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Old 30-09-2015, 02:53 AM   #49
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Helpful explanation of how barrett elicits instinctive, nonconscious ideomotion in his patients.

http://barrettdorko.com/articles/cre...tient_wall.htm

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Old 06-10-2015, 08:49 PM   #50
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Hi BD,

I just want to toot your horn for a minute and say I really enjoyed reading your book and the essays on your site as well (though there are lots to read there).

I know I'm learning a lot from your prose because I find myself rereading some of the essays and how it relates to my clinical life.

Please allow yourself to feel aggrandized if just for a few moments.

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