Ref Chestnut Challenge discussion

[Jon Newman]

Hi Byron,

I went ahead and started a thread for questions about and discussion of your Chestnut Challenge thread. I'm in. I'll do it.

That "no links" part might be my nemesis.

[Jon Newman]

From your thread:

Try to answer this question "What people need to know that I have learned about pain and therapy is...."

While this is more of a statement than a question I think I generally get it. But I want to clarify who "people" are in this project. Knowing your audience is important and "people" could be co-workers, patients, or some other group altogether.

[byronselorme]

Hi Jon,

I am so glad that you decided to take part.

I know that the no links part was a challenge and almost goes against the thrust of most threads, but the reason is that it needs to be from you and your mind as you have digested it and now understand it.

This will hopefully give many different perspectives of very similar topics.
The idea had been in my mind for sometime and, to be honest, I am still figuring some of it out.

Let's start by saying that the intended audience is people in the "service" industry. By that I mean what Barrett refers to when he talks about serving vs. helping.

I hope to use this as tool to bring people who are on the edge of their various professions, Maybe questioning PT, or OT, or RMT, or hopefully someday Yoga mesodermalism so that they come to SS to learn. I don't know if that really narrows it down or not.

Thanks again for being "in". I am having trouble starting my own post. A little bit of fear showing

[Jason Silvernail]

Great idea, Byron.

[Diane]

Ooh, good idea. It's very hard to write fewer than 400 words. Samurai sword pounding.

[nari]

Good idea, Byron.
If you are looking for those who were (or are) dissatisfied with what they were trained to do plus numerous unsatisfactory courses post-grad, I suspect there are many of them.

I was one such PT; but for me the 'transformation' was very easy.
More later after I compose a condensed version.

Nari

[zimney3pt]

I'm in, may take a while to think through to get all the info in the brevity that is required (which I I hate (easier to just write without that limitation) but also like (great challenge to make each word and phrase of depth and breath))

[Diane]

I think it's 400 words. I used more than two paragraphs though. May it be OK as is. Or must I try to jam it into two paragraphs arbitrarily?

[byronselorme]

Hi Diane,

All I can say is WOW!
I like your layout it is clear and boy does it cover a lot.

I think you are right. 2 paragraphs was arbitrary and I am taking that out now as it makes things a little too cramped. The main reason for the restriction (and maybe not necessary) was to try and get as many people as possible on one page. Perhaps that is governed by number of posts and not physical space? 400 words is the more important component though. I wanted to make it less but this is a complex topic and I wanted to be fair to those with a heap of things to say

You will need to edit a bit though. Currently you are 127 words over budget . Back to the Samurai sword work

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Jon Newman

From your thread:



While this is more of a statement than a question I think I generally get it. But I want to clarify who "people" are in this project. Knowing your audience is important and "people" could be co-workers, patients, or some other group altogether.

I have been thinking about this Jon, And I might revise this question. I would like to get the essence of what SomaSimple is about. In that I would HIGHLY recommend the ideas of Critical Thinking and Science. Things like Jason Silvernail talks about in his That Grinds My Gears

I will take suggestions on that one if anyone has a better way to phrase the question. Diane's post gets to a lot of SS in my opinion.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by byronselorme

Hi Diane,

Currently you are 127 words over budget . Back to the Samurai sword work

OK, I'll edit. It's a first draft.

[tonyf315]

Diane I liked yours a lot. I might have made a boo-boo in mine and quoted you sorta

[Bas Asselbergs]

I need to stop doing stuff here in-between patients, or during my huge kitchen-reno.
Missed the whole purpose of the thread, used references (now deleted) and basically messed up.
Oh, well.

The post stands as is.
A statement to my presently limited observation and reading skills.

Diane and Tony - those are good.

[Diane]

Your one-liner was good too, Bas. I reflected on it as I wrote mine.

Byron, I tried editing off line and just ended up with a longer piece/more words.
I'll try again later. I might not be able to shorten it without losing essential bits, so might have to ask for leniency yet again.

Great exercise though. Made me be succinct. As succinct as I'm ever capable of being, anyway.

[zimney3pt]

Fun exercise and challenge to keep at 400 word mark and hit most relevent info.

I might have made a boo-boo in mine and quoted you sorta

I know I did this boo-boo with more than just one person, so you did better than me Tony. I blame it on the exercise and not asking for links or reference articles.

[Diane]

I thought it was walnuts that looked like brains. Chestnuts too?

[byronselorme]

OK, I'll edit. It's a first draft.

One heck of a first draft it is.

@ Tony,

I think it would be impossible not to say something that hasn't been said. With that, I actually liked you post quite a bit. Feel free to edit as much as you want, but for an early post I think there is some real clarity in your post

Whoops, almost pulled a quote from your post, link to only . You hitting on Nocebo words and the Therapist Client interaction is very clear.

Thank you

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Diane

I thought it was walnuts that looked like brains. Chestnuts too?

I think Chestnuts look even more like brains. Tighter folds, maybe Walnuts are the Chimps of the nut world

[Diane]

Originally Posted by byronselorme

I think Chestnuts look even more like brains. Tighter folds, maybe Walnuts are the Chimps of the nut world

[caro]

Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs

I need to stop doing stuff here in-between patients, or during my huge kitchen-reno.
Missed the whole purpose of the thread, used references (now deleted) and basically messed up.
Oh, well.

The post stands as is.
A statement to my presently limited observation and reading skills.

Well Bas at least you wrote something. All I've been able to manage is sing ''The Christmas song.''

Great challenge Byron. Thanks.

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs

I need to stop doing stuff here in-between patients, or during my huge kitchen-reno.
Missed the whole purpose of the thread, used references (now deleted) and basically messed up.
Oh, well.

The post stands as is.
A statement to my presently limited observation and reading skills.

Diane and Tony - those are good.

Bas, You can edit it and change it and improve it indefinitely. If you think of a better way to say what hasn't been said or your thoughts get clearer still, update it.

All I am really concerned with is that it is from your perspective. Whether you can say in 10 words or 400.

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Diane

Your one-liner was good too, Bas. I reflected on it as I wrote mine.

Byron, I tried editing off line and just ended up with a longer piece/more words.
I'll try again later. I might not be able to shorten it without losing essential bits, so might have to ask for leniency yet again.

Great exercise though. Made me be succinct. As succinct as I'm ever capable of being, anyway.

Keep whittling. I believe you can do it Diane. Like polishing a diamond.

[Bas Asselbergs]

Had some more time and edited for addition. (Alliteration, wow)

[Barrett Dorko]

I love the way this is going. For those taking a shot, please remember, "Writing is a discipline of subtraction."

From Writing Down The Bones by Natalie Goldberg (I'm pretty sure)

[zimney3pt]

In my tDPT classes which were all on-line, so writing was the only method of transferring info. Many of our assignments had to meet word limits. It was very frustrating at first (interesting since all of High School and most of College it seems as if there was minimum word or page requirements which made it hard to fill up the pages at times), it did get you to refine your thinking and make every word and phrase count.

Word minimum papers (for example at least 1,000 words or 2 pages) made you have to expand your thinking. Word maximum papers (400 words or less) makes you refine your expanded thinking.

[Diane]

I'm traveling right now, which is a major inconvenience. All I want to be doing is working on shrinking like Alice so I can get through this little door.

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Diane

I'm traveling right now, which is a major inconvenience. All I want to be doing is working on shrinking like Alice so I can get through this little door.

[Jon Newman]

I'm working on my project and I find that I want to define some terms but I'm reluctant to "use my own words" when defining something because I'm concerned about changing the definition with a paraphrase. But I can't use references or quotes and existing definitions aren't my original work...Any thoughts?

[zimney3pt]

I'm working on my project and I find that I want to define some terms but I'm reluctant to "use my own words" when defining something because I'm concerned about changing the definition with a paraphrase. But I can't use references or quotes and existing definitions aren't my original work...Any thoughts?

Just cheat like I did, . Obviously my words in my post are not all my original work.

[CDano]

Byron this was a great idea for a thread, not only do we get some nice personal history but also a quick understandable overview of the key concepts that make SS what it is.

I've been here for about 6 months, and wish i'd seen Chestnuts on day one, would have saved a lot of time and confusion. I still found that much of my thinking needs an update!

This needs to be placed somewhere prominent.

[tonyf315]

from caro :

It could be said that there are two kinds of musicians : those who can improvise and well... those who can't. The symphony, for example, is full of the latter : fine, accomplished players who can't produce a note to save their life, if they don't have their transcriptions guiding them. And there is nothing wrong with that, classical music is beautiful. But I think if you want to help people in pain, you have to learn how to play Jazz.

this really "struck a chord" with me! awesome!

[ian s]

Carol , that music analogy was brilliant and before I had seen Tony's reply i have saved it to the desktop and forwarded it on!
Without the 'dots' (notes) many people are lost , its hard to learn by ear --you have to learn to turn the language centre off , many people claim they are tone deaf ......
I do 'trad' music ---there are regional variations, the basic series of notes sound completely different from one part of Ireland or Scotland to another .......the tunes have ornamentations (embelishments) too much and they spoil things, none and the tunes can sound a bit flat and uninteresting........Same with the pain explanations and treatments.
I will write something re this thread,without links etc but following on your analogy I hope you like this --one of the most moving poems I know on the process. http://markbussey.com/2010/04/a-lesson-in-music/

ian

[byronselorme]

Originally Posted by Jon Newman

I'm working on my project and I find that I want to define some terms but I'm reluctant to "use my own words" when defining something because I'm concerned about changing the definition with a paraphrase. But I can't use references or quotes and existing definitions aren't my original work...Any thoughts?

Hi Jon,

What you say may sound very familiar to what other people sound like here. I think that is unavoidable. What I am hoping is that it is not sound bites of other peoples thoughts.

I was being a little facetious about it being the Theory Of Everything. I am actually really enjoying the personal notes that Diane and Nari added.

[caro]

Hi Byron,

What a brilliant idea.Thanks for playing everyone, for providing yet more fantastic material to help us become better clinicians. Good, good news for the people we treat.

Hi Tony, .

Ian, I really enjoyed that poem, thank you.

[byronselorme]

Gees,

I have reread my post and I think it sounds a little bit like I am gushing.

I hope more of you are still considering submitting your own post.

I am planning to keep following up with you all.

[byronselorme]

When David Butler wrote this in the NOI group newsletter, I couldn't help but hope maybe he visited SS

A time for reflection
National Pain Week has made us reflect at NOI – what is the essence of our teaching and philosophy – are we on track? When someone says “tell us what are the most important things that you teach, summarise the key philosophies in a nutshell”, it does make you reflect. The two things I have selected are firstly that pain is an output of the brain, not an input and secondly that pain is just one of many outputs our brain makes to defend us.

If you haven't added your comments yet. Please consider it.

[Jon Newman]

Great to see you post again Luke. It has been a long time.

Byron, you note in the rules

If your edit is because you have a new understanding that contradicts an old one, leave the old idea intact but put the strikethrough over it so that others can see your evolution.

I'd like to suggest that if people add information (as opposed to editing), that they do it in a new color or somehow date it.

Also, are edits/add-ons allowed to push past the 400 word limit?

[byronselorme]

My intention is for the 400 words to appear clear and clean for reading purposes. This thread may hopefully introduce many people to the thought process going on at SS and easy on the eyes is important.

I think your idea

I'd like to suggest that if people add information (as opposed to editing), that they do it in a new color or somehow date it.

Is a good one, I will edit the front to include that. What I am thinking is that maybe we need the old ideas to go below the whole article. I can see that they it might mess clutter up the article post if the idea sentence gets so too many strikethoughs.

Grammar and wording do NOT need the strikethrough they can be deleted completely if the essence of the sentence is still intact.

In regards to pushing past 400. I think keeping the main post to 400 is good. The old ideas can get put to the bottom of the post in colour or bold and with a date. These do not count as part of the word count (only fair).

I am in awe of how many ways there are to express ideas. And I really appreciate everyone that has contributed to it (hint hint )

[Adiemusfree]

WOW this is hard! Such a brilliant exercise in brevity and clarity, I've stolen it and used it in an occupational therapy discussion group on Facebook (hope no-one minds), not discussing pain though. I'm working on my contribution now...

[Jason Silvernail]

Originally Posted by bernard

What people need to know that I have learned about pain and therapy is...

That unfortunately (?) I forgot quite all the things I learned at PT school...
I started to lurk at NOI discussion lists in 2003 and thought it was some alien forum since neurology and neurophysiology was not a priority for me and the majority of colleagues! Really?
Then I studied I was wrong at both ends:

That complex nervous system, running everywhere in our body, was of major importance and like a bad boy it may be sometimes irritable and angry when our action is not well understood or accepted by its owner: the patient.

Some years later, the major lessons I apply each day are :

• The first one is Listen and Learn!
• The second one is Less is More!

[gollygosh]

"Exercise is necessary for a healthy life, but patients should be allowed to move comfortably before they are urged to move with effort. The nervous system learns every step of the way. We should always be asking ourselves what we are teaching it." Texas Ortho in the chestnut challenge

I like this. I come across so many patients who think that gentle is no good. That self guided, and exploratory is incomprehensible.

I come across so many therapists that think that straight plane, and good old Sahrmann length/ strength is the cure to all evils.

I believe this quotation will find it to my bulletin board--duly credited of course.

Geralyn

[TexasOrtho]

Thanks Geralyn! Also thanks to Byron for the idea. I spent some time working on that this week and it was a very helpful exercise.