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Barrett's Forums This discussion is devoted to the latest advances in neuroscience and the clinical phenomena it explains.

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Old 01-08-2011, 02:25 PM   #1
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Default Dorko's Diamonds "Feldenkrais' "Spine like a Chain" exercise and Weber-Fechner law explained

Episode #15

Barrett explains Moshe Feldenkrais' "Spine like a chain" exercise to encourage movement in the system without straining it and finishes the clip off with an introduction of the Weber-Fechner law applied to movement therapy.

Thoughts?

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Old 01-08-2011, 03:56 PM   #2
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Would you ever reverse the order? (Knees first then shoulders?) It seems like a lot of patients with SI joint pinching/pain fear those movements, maybe doing them slowly and in a controlled fashion could help.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:32 PM   #3
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Clark,

Of course. Whatever can be done painlessly. Thoughtful motion is encouraged numerous times on this tape.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:38 PM   #4
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Barrett,

What is the Butler list (things to consider when treating someone with movement) that you referenced?

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Old 01-08-2011, 07:12 PM   #5
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I'm going to hunt it down tonight. This was said one day after I'd seen it for the first time.

I appreciate your interest.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:37 AM   #6
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I have done sidelying rotation before with good success. I like the addition of following with the knees and the instructions on thoughtful motion to the patient.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:30 PM   #7
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This is the list that caught my eye:

• Activate premotor association areas
• Watch movement
• Imagine movement
• Mirror movement
• Do part of movement but don‟t involve painful part
• Do part of movement involving painful part
• Do more
• Increase number
• Increase strength
• Add equipment
• Cross midline

Butler uses this to amplify painless movement and much of it, I think, would be approved by Feldenkrais.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:08 PM   #8
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That was a good clip to watch, hits home a lot deeper when seen - less is more, but with a lot of thought behind it, like an iceberg. Thanks for making that available. Is there a place on the web I can see more, or are they only available when someone posts on this forum?
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:23 PM   #9
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Here is a link to a good deal of material: http://www.feldenkrais.com/

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Old 02-08-2011, 03:58 PM   #10
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Barrett that was very helpful for me. To this point my attempts have been relegated to telling the patient movement should be characterized by 1) minimal to no effort 2) no pain, and 3) an awareness of what is felt. I try to devote at least 10-15 minutes of each session explicitly to this process.

I really like the explanation of Weber-Fechner in conjunction with the movement as well.
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:12 PM   #11
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Thanks a lot for posting that, Barrett! I have The Sensitive Nervous System, but didn't think I had come across that. Maybe it'll be in the updated version...
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Old 02-08-2011, 05:56 PM   #12
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To my knowledge, Butler doesn't mention Feldenkrais.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:36 AM   #13
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With 300 views in just 18 hours this has proven a very popular thread.

It stands to reason that something in the way of demonstration will do this, given what we know of the importance of mirror neurons.

I should say that on many occasions I've been asked during the demonstration if it was allowed for the patient "to start on their other side and turn the other way."

I say, "No. For that you'd have to take an advanced course."

I'm not kidding.
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:27 AM   #14
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Here is the inimitable Moshe Feldenkrais, talking about well, a whole bunch of stuff.

It's a fascinating document, for many reasons. This was filmed around 1981.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIml2...layer_embedded

There has been some minor (very, very minor) hoo-haw on FB, following the posting of Barrett's vid. All in the vein of: ''As ze certified, Feldenkrais practionner that I am; I can say that Barrett's demonstration is not exactly accurate... Ba ba blah, ba ba blah... ''

I'm just grateful nobody referred to him as Moshe.

I'm thinking a man who could stop mid-sentence, what am saying, mid conference, to make goo-goo eyes with a baby, wasn't too caught up with ZE technique of it all. But that's just me.

Any thoughts Barrett, you who actually met the man?
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:18 AM   #15
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I recall sitting on the floor in an enormous meeting room in the Poconos, waiting for Feldenkrais to enter. I had read all I could, talked to a few people and I was actually nervous. I thought, "Why am I nervous? He should be nervous."

The microphone was wireless and as we lay on the floor Feldenkrais would pad about the room speaking, giving further directions and leaning over unsuspecting participants with their eyes closed (Weber-Fechner). When they opened, there he was, directly above them, smiling.

I was one of those.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:28 PM   #16
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If I'm not mistaken, the young woman who served as a model was just out of school and I suspected that all of this was a bit much for her. Perhaps you can tell this by the way she chose to proceed with the movement on her own. If I'd not had to lecture at the same time my directions would have been more appropriately done.

After several hours she asked me, "Is this Soma Simple thing a book or something? What are you talking about?"
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:52 PM   #17
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Barrett,

Unfortunately, the model was not just out of school. She's a aquatics instructor and trainer who has been suffering from back pain for some time now. She's been to every guru on this coast and even on the West Coast but no one has been able to "help" her. I had hope that she would come and learn about the origins of pain and how to use ideomotion to self-correct. Speaking with her a week or so after the meeting, I asked her about it. She said she didnt get ideomotion and couldnt get anything to happen even though everyone around her was doing without an issue. I guess she didnt understand there was nothing to "get to happen". However, speaking with another trainer there, he totally got it and has been working on it ever since.

Whaddyagonnado?
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:58 PM   #18
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Will, I guess the deeper understanding simply did not occur. It IS hard for some people to let "go" of the hunt for a "fix". Understanding pain seems so...well, soft. It elicits the "how can THIS be better than the (hard) sell of the "x" practitioner?"
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs View Post
Will, I guess the deeper understanding simply did not occur. It IS hard for some people to let "go" of the hunt for a "fix". Understanding pain seems so...well, soft. It elicits the "how can THIS be better than the (hard) sell of the "x" practitioner?"
Bas,

I agree and this is not something that I expect every person at a workshop to "get" either, even though I think there was a little cognitive dissonance going on with the model and her beliefs about pain. I'm sure had Barrettt been in a clinical setting, he would have had the time to "sit with her" a bit to work through this.

I think this is one of the topics that I will cover with Jason and Diane in our next interview with the Interactor/Operator paradigm. Sitting with someone to interact with them and around their BS so they can create space for healing.

Maybe some people will never get out of their own way and will keep going from therapist to therapist.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:52 PM   #20
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They will, unless told explicitly, tend to default to human primate social groomEE mode, which is to give over to the caregiver (groomER) their own locus of control. I think this stems way back to how primates rely on social grooming for stress reduction.

My strategy is to set up at the start, before I ever touch someone, a strategic alliance between us, that they are in full control of the process, I am the contractor hired, and that we have to ally ourselves to solve the problem the nervous system is presenting. IOW, I deliberately set up the patient as something separate and detachable, conceptually, from his or her own nervous system. I couch it in terms of the "nervous system" being the part that we all have in common with the rest of the animals, and the person as being the more recently evolved "human" bit. I usually say out loud "dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" and mention that it's the only part of the brain that can disengage from the rest of the nervous system, consider, then reengage with a plan; that it's like a clutch that way. It can change the system a bit if it can be used to gain leverage.

I only talk about it if someone is at least 25 though, because it isn't grown in yet on anyone younger. I found out yesterday, to my horror, a bit, that now it isn't considered fully operational until age 30. Yoikes. I may have to adjust my patter accordingly. Peds Pain PT will have to extend itself post-adolescent to cover to age 30.
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:54 PM   #21
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Hey Will,

If you do some more video of Barrett in the future. Do you think you could get a mike on him?

I have all my sound up full and I am straining to hear it all. My hearing isn't the best so that makes it doubly hard.

Nice to see the video though.

14 is an auspicious number. I was married on January 14th. Must be some connection to Moshe
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
. IOW, I deliberately set up the patient as something separate and detachable, conceptually, from his or her own nervous system. I couch it in terms of the "nervous system" being the part that we all have in common with the rest of the animals, and the person as being the more recently evolved "human" bit. I usually say out loud "dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" and mention that it's the only part of the brain that can disengage from the rest of the nervous system, consider, then reengage with a plan; that it's like a clutch that way. It can change the system a bit if it can be used to gain leverage.
Diane this sounds a bit similar to You are not your Brain. I was almost put off in the beginning of this book because they were talking of the brain as a passive receptor and the mind as the active portion. But many of the descriptions later in the book seem to line up with what you are saying here.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byronselorme View Post
Diane this sounds a bit similar to You are not your Brain. I was almost put off in the beginning of this book because they were talking of the brain as a passive receptor and the mind as the active portion. But many of the descriptions later in the book seem to line up with what you are saying here.
Yes...

It's the only way I can think of to help the patient get a grip on him or her "self" so it can have/practice locus of control.
It's a conceptual contrivance, and I never go there until I have already explained that "they" are a function of their own nervous system, not that they are somehow distinct from it. Then I go ahead and help them distinguish themselves from it. With that "clutch" disengagement metaphor.

It's my own version of a card trick. I guess.
I'm a monist, really. And sometimes I really hate the English language for being so clutzy this way, with verbs that turn into nouns and nouns into verbs and a bunch of operator models that had to be waded through and turned back into verbs.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:32 PM   #24
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Language is really tough sometimes isn't it.

Neil was talking about that in the workshop. He was saying. "don't tell people not to judge, they are always judging, that's what the brain does"

Quote:
v. judged, judg·ing, judg·es
v.tr.1. To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration: judge heights; judging character.
2. a. Law To hear and decide on in a court of law; try: judge a case.
b. Obsolete To pass sentence on; condemn.
c. To act as one appointed to decide the winners of: judge an essay contest.

3. To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation.
4. Informal To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose: I judge you're right.
5. Bible To govern; rule. Used of an ancient Israelite leader.

v.intr.1. To form an opinion or evaluation.
2. To act or decide as a judge.
Despite the fact that 2b. is considered obsolete. I think this is what most people are doing when they are judging (passing sentence on themselves) say in a Yoga pose or in pain etc..

What a word used to mean doesn't necessarily continue to update with the times either. Like "that's really cool" etc. Sometimes this change happens really fast.

Making sure that what you mean and say gets translated to what the other person hears and makes mean correctly has to be the biggest communication challenge there is. I don't think this is limited to the English language however.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:44 PM   #25
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Maybe "compare" is what the brain does first, before it "judges".
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caro View Post
Here is the inimitable Moshe Feldenkrais, talking about well, a whole bunch of stuff.

It's a fascinating document, for many reasons. This was filmed around 1981.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIml2...layer_embedded
Watching this right now.

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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 03-08-2011, 06:54 PM   #27
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"There has been some minor (very, very minor) hoo-haw on FB, following the posting of Barrett's vid...I'm just grateful nobody referred to him as Moshe."

I seem to be missing the Facebook hoo, haa.

I am curious what bothers you about hearing his first name of Moshe. Do you mind saying?
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Whaddyagonnado?
My thought is that it takes awhile for some people to warm up to a slower, awareness based approach. And awhile could be years. I have a PT that is taking trainings with me these days that recently said, "When I tried this work 15 years ago, I didn't get it. I seem to be warming up to it now." :-)

Barrett - I appreciate your honesty about how you might instruct differently if you were not split in attention. That is always a challenge. Knowing that this volunteer had back pain would have made a difference for you too I am sure.

I posted the youtube video today on Integrative Learning Center's blog. I appreciate your videos efforts and in talking about this movement, Feldenkrais, etc. Thanks for that.

The traditional use of Spine Like a Chain as refererring to a specific movement sequence in the Feldenkrais world usually refers to being in supine and working up link-by-link, tail-to-top. You have aptly applied the phrase and are certainly working the spine like a chain in sidelying.

The pacing in the "ideal" Feldenkrais world would be much sl---oooo---www--eeeerr. I have seen some of your others demos so I know you appreciate and do slow well. You coached her to slow down. I am guessing that is probably about as slow as she knows to go right now or maybe as slow as she knows how to go when being the demo client.

Growth in awareness is typically pretty laid back process for us all as the PT I mentioned above so vividly brought home to me once again in his sharing.

Your sense of humor on the videos is great too. As someone else posted, would love to see you have a mic.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:10 PM   #29
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I posted the youtube video today on Integrative Learning Center's blog. I appreciate your videos efforts and in talking about this movement, Feldenkrais, etc. Thanks for that.
Here is the link to the Integrative Learning Center's blog.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:59 AM   #30
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Cynthia,

It was very kind of you to do this. I appreciate what you've said as well.

This world would be a better place if there were more therapists using Feldenkrais' principles and movements when dealing with patients of nearly any sort.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:04 AM   #31
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I am curious what bothers you about hearing his first name of Moshe. Do you mind saying?
I mostly speak french Cynthia, so first-name familiarity doesn't mean the same thing to me. Just a language thing I guess. Thanks for making me think about that.
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Old 05-08-2011, 02:19 PM   #32
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I mostly speak french Cynthia, so first-name familiarity doesn't mean the same thing to me. Just a language thing I guess. Thanks for making me think about that.
Carol Lynn -

I am curious because--hold it, because I am about to say the awful words -- as a Feldenkrais Practitioner in the early days of my training I found this first name referencing to the "master"very odd. Then again, all my teachers studied directly with him and many had spent months even years with him.

As I grew, I came to understand the strong thread in the Feldenkrais Method that there is no one "Master" and the Feldenkrais himself did not present himself as Dr. Feldenkrais but as Moshe to his students. Moshe with the French accent and not the Hebrew accent--which many people in the U.S. find odd and want to change it to the Hebrew. Anyway, I digress.

One of Feldenkrais' main teachings was to return each person to be their own authority, to become autonomous and to discontinue looking to outside authority figures. Now I am completely making this up (but it could be true) because I have not talked with a "senior" trainer in our work about this, but it has gradually made sense to me that there is an importance in his students calling him Moshe and not Dr. Feldenkrais in terms of finding one's own ground. It also gets very confusing to determine when are we talking about the Feldenkrais work or method and Feldenkrais the man. The use of Moshe short cuts that confusion.

Having said all that, I decided some time ago that it was probably weird for other people as it had been for me in the beginning, so I decided to say "Dr. Feldenkrais" to public groups or people who are getting their first introduction. And definitely I do so in formal writing.

Of course, having a PhD is not the same status symbol as it used to be either. And there are a heck of a lot of doctorate level folks walking around.

Your comment gave me a chance to check in with someone in a fresh way about how "Moshe" was received.

Thanks for the dialogue.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:12 PM   #33
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Thank you for clarifying things for me Cynthia. I appreciate it.

I apologize if my comments offended you.
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I am curious because--hold it, because I am about to say the awful words -- as a Feldenkrais Practitioner
I'll just say that the ATM instructors with whom I've interacted weren't as lucid and as no-nonsense as you appear to be with regard to Feldenkrais and his method, and leave at that.
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