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Old 23-08-2011, 01:34 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
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Four years ago I wrote in this thread (post #61):

Quote:
The inclination to move toward comfort is closely linked to our survival, and since we don't spend a whole lot of time these days running from wild animals or foraging for food, this small movement has taken on increased importance when it comes to measuring the quality of our lives.

This movement is ideomotor, and, it seems, we inhibit it with regularity because the culture won't allow any significant deviation from what it has decided is normal and desirable. If you watch, you'll see that "desirable" varies from one generation to the next but that the latest fashion is eventually, often rapidly, considered "normal" by many. Health doesn't actually influence this decision.

Ideomotion, as it begins, is a very small thing; a few neurons firing in the brain really, and if they merge appropriately the motor plan becomes a motor action. In my experience, most people are unaware of this small thing and dismiss it, mistake it for something else and then inhibit it because the culture doesn't want it anyway.

But without a sufficient expression of ideomotion our normal and natural ability to reduce mechanical deformation is lost. Pain's going to show up there somewhere eventually, and mainly because we have ignored a small but essential thing.
Many humans intent upon controlling others will sense that restricting their unique way of moving is initially disconcerting and eventually painful. One may follow the other rapidly or it may take a while. This is, at times, a simple issue and at other times remarkably complex. I think it’s perfectly possible for restriction and expression to coexist. Take fashion for example.

In any case, ideomotion begins small. So small in fact that it can’t be seen but only palpated. We all know how therapists prefer the obvious, and ideomotion is often anything but that.

This makes it no less important, just more difficult to understand.

I tell my classes, Very small movements in the right direction can make all the difference in the world to the output of pain. Your job is to follow your patient in that direction and then show them how to regularly reproduce that movement.

First, do it in yourself.
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Old 23-08-2011, 10:50 PM   #2
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During the presidential campaign of '08 I heard Senator John McCain tell the story of how a certain guard who shared a secret loyalty with him would steal into his cell at night, loosen his bonds a bit and then tighten them again before his fellow guards appeared in the morning.

It's a compelling image, and this small movement of the rope made all the difference to McCain's painful nights.
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Old 24-08-2011, 01:41 AM   #3
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Many times I've said to classes:

Quote:
You know that if I insisted that you hold yourself perfectly still, not moving at all except to breathe and swallow two things would rapidly rise - discomfort, and the desire to move.
Am I right about this? What does it mean?
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Old 24-08-2011, 03:25 AM   #4
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This brings me back to what I keep thinking about from "Teach us to Sit Still".

Why this incessant focus on physical stillness. It isn't possible anyway as long as we are breathing.

Quote:
It's a compelling image, and this small movement of the rope made all the difference to McCain's painful nights.
I would think that the fact that at least one guard cared to loosen the ropes would hold quite a bit of value as well? Here I am a prisoner of war. No guarantee that the rules would not be changed and I would be killed and now I have one ray of light in the darkness.
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Old 24-08-2011, 06:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Many times I've said to classes:



Am I right about this? What does it mean?
Can someone refresh my memory to make sure I am correct. I remember listening to one of the interviews in the Brain Science Podcast where they talked about a sea creature that they have studied it's nervous system fairly extensively because it is small (only a few hundred neurons compared you our billions). They talked how later in life it would attach it self to rock and no longer move about the ocean. At this time since it did not move it actually started to eat it's own nervous system because it did not need it anymore since it no longer moved. I might also ask what does that mean?

If you want life you need movement. And if you want freedom in movement it probably should have some form of instinctiveness to it. I'm guessing that Sen. McCain felt a small amount of freedom with the loosening of his ropes.
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Old 24-08-2011, 07:05 AM   #6
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Sea squirt! Great metaphor.
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Old 24-08-2011, 12:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Many times I've said to classes:

Quote:
You know that if I insisted that you hold yourself perfectly still, not moving at all except to breathe and swallow two things would rapidly rise - discomfort, and the desire to move.
Am I right about this? What does it mean?
To me, it means we are disposed to act in a manner that decreases discomfort or that increases comfort.
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Old 24-08-2011, 01:01 PM   #8
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Not just "disposed" - "genetically and instinctively predisposed." I think.

I'll ask, What do medical people begin to worry about when the patient can't move? The answer is always, "Skin breakdown," which is true.

Wouldn't pain show up long before then?
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Old 24-08-2011, 04:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Sea squirt!
Thanks Rod

Quote:
Wouldn't pain show up long before then?
For me personally I hope so, I want a nervous system that does it's job - "protect me".
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Old 24-08-2011, 06:17 PM   #10
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I would think homo sapiens recycles his/her nervous system from disuse, or atrophy. Something akin to the sea squirt?
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Old 25-08-2011, 02:28 AM   #11
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http://www.tv.com/rizzoli-and-isles/...9/summary.html

this episode mentions ideomotor activity in relationship to a ouiji board. TNT network. Just an FYI.
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Old 25-08-2011, 02:33 AM   #12
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Deb,

I'll watch it, but boy, has that show gone into the toilet.

BTW, Alex and Michael were here and all is well.
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Old 25-08-2011, 03:56 AM   #13
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Good to know Barrett. The show was witty at one point now it is more nit witty. Strong women characters need better writers. Have a Happy Birthday as well.

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Old 25-08-2011, 04:19 AM   #14
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Barrett I have questions about the bolded statements from your first post. They will probably make me sound like the devil's advocate, but I can imagine some punk OCS asking them.

Quote:
The inclination to move toward comfort is closely linked to our survival, and since we don't spend a whole lot of time these days running from wild animals or foraging for food, this small movement has taken on increased importance when it comes to measuring the quality of our lives.

This movement is ideomotor, and, it seems, we inhibit it with regularity because the culture won't allow any significant deviation from what it has decided is normal and desirable. If you watch, you'll see that "desirable" varies from one generation to the next but that the latest fashion is eventually, often rapidly, considered "normal" by many. Health doesn't actually influence this decision.
Has anyone asked you to support those two statements with anything beyond empirical observation? If its presence takes on increasing importance with respect to measuring quality of life, you'd think we'd be hearing more about this somewhere other than here. If its importance is increasing, there would seem to be means by which this importance could be defined or measured.

You'd think we could measure the quiet sitting of individuals in different chairs or surfaces and observe their natural behavior. Play music, have them read a book or watch a funny movie and observe this motor behavior. I wonder if such research has been done, although I think I know the answer. I'm trying to find a way to advocate for/against statements like this.

I also wonder if we regularly inhibit? I'm not sure I'd know (or more importantly if the patient would know) if their ideomotoric behaviors are being inhibited?

Sorry for yakking up these random questions, but I've been thinking a lot about these statements and what I can do to deconstruct/understand them better. Note: I was also having a discussion about this with a colleague the other day and those points were challenged. I believe I defended them relatively well but was curious how you would respond.
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Old 25-08-2011, 09:57 AM   #15
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I hate it when people say "there is about to be a study published......." but here goes anyway!

I chap in Leeds (UK, Jamie Bell) is doing a PhD looking at sitting and low back pain in office workers. He put motion detectors on office workers measuring a number of variables. The only correlation he found to pain was people with pain moved less.

I saw Mr Bell last year and he was just writing his PhD up. I have no idea when he will get round to publish. I'll send him an email.
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Old 25-08-2011, 01:04 PM   #16
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Rod,

Great questions. Please see today's Range of Motion, (VI in the series) for my version of an answer.
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Old 25-08-2011, 04:53 PM   #17
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Dave, thanks for sharing the
Quote:
"there is about to be a study published......."
it sounds very interesting.

This is something with novelty of movement I have tried to instill in workers. Change positions frequently and continually explore new and different ways to do your job. Change your chair height as the day goes on, adjust your keyboard, shovel with each hand, lift with your back, lift with your legs, etc. I know I don't have the actual study, but I think I remember reading (which is scary because memory is not accurate) research that showed line workers that choose multiple movement options through out the day had decrease injury risks.
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Old 25-08-2011, 08:33 PM   #18
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Hey Kory,

This has probably been dealt with somewhere else but
Quote:
shovel with each hand, lift with your back, lift with your legs
Can you point me to some discussions on this. I would like to understand this better. I have been told for so long that this is not a good thing.
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Old 25-08-2011, 08:57 PM   #19
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I've still never seen someone lift with their back OR their legs. I was always under the impression you lifted with your body.

Brain's the foreman.
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Old 25-08-2011, 09:22 PM   #20
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Yes, Rod your right, you do lift with your body. I should have said lift with a posture of squat or forward bending.

Byron I can go into more detail in a different thread about this if your interested, but here's a few thoughts.
Yes bending at the waist and lifting an item will increase the load on the back as compared to squatting which will increase the load on the legs. The problem comes that how much load can each person handle safely with their legs or their back? People's anthropometric dimensions, conditioning and training (SAID principle), type of load lifted, size, speed and other factors would all have to be some how calculated to determine each and every lift. Just because a certain lifting posture loads the back more does not mean the back can not handle those forces and increases their injury risk, especially if trained for them. If someone's motor control and muscular system has learned a forward bent posture it might be much better for them to lift in this fashion then have them lift with a squat posture if they are not trained for that. (For analogy: I bat right handed playing baseball. A left hand batter has two steps closer to first when they leave the batters box, which should get them to first base quicker, so all things equal in the hit of the ball and fielding they should beat out more throws to first and get on base more. But just switching to batting left handed is not going to get me that result because my motor plan is not programmed for that so I won't even make contact with the ball. I'm better off batting from the right and would need lots of practice to eventual put in left hand batting in a game situation.)

Just as a side note studies have shown psychosocial demands can change the biomechanical loads of spinal musculature within the same person doing the same lift. Context has a role in lots of things, pretty cool stuff...
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Old 26-08-2011, 04:55 AM   #21
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Hi Kory,

That all makes sense with what I have been reading lately. So much junk in the attic to clear out though.

I think I taught 5 or 6 years of fear based yoga too. Always concerned about how to avoid injury.

If you start another thread I will be there, let me know.

Sorry for the highjack Barrett.
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Old 26-08-2011, 03:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Not just "disposed" - "genetically and instinctively predisposed." I think.

I'll ask, What do medical people begin to worry about when the patient can't move? The answer is always, "Skin breakdown," which is true.

Wouldn't pain show up long before then?
I have to say that the first thing I thought was "blood clots". Slow moving blood is blood that tends to clot. I think skin breakdown occurs secondary to lack of circulation. Of course pressure (deformation) precedes the circulation issue.
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