SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #1
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,561
Thanks: 1,914
Thanked 1,419 Times in 623 Posts
Default Manipulation support?

Check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...?dopt=Abstract

Will you come to the same conclusion as I did?
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 02:54 PM   #2
Jordan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 101
Thanks: 3
Thanked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Is this your conclusion? People get better in the long-term when they are given more attention. Stated otherwise, people like a little grooming.
Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 03:21 PM   #3
zimney3pt
life long learner, clinician, and instructor
 
zimney3pt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sioux City, IA
Age: 44
Posts: 2,127
Thanks: 255
Thanked 1,124 Times in 397 Posts
Default

potential form of the Hawthorne Effect?
__________________
Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

"Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei
zimney3pt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 04:11 PM   #4
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,561
Thanks: 1,914
Thanked 1,419 Times in 623 Posts
Default

Yes to both of you. Jordan, that was my first thought; then after a few minutes of thought (a massive effort), I did remember the Hawthorne effect. I tend to think in manual therapy studies, the"social grooming"-effect is the stronger influence.

I certainly do not think that this study in ANY way supports manipulation for chronic back patients; however, many who make a living doing this, will see it as a great support of their maintenance "method" or technique.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 04:13 PM   #5
Sheffphysio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sheffield, UK
Age: 35
Posts: 732
Thanks: 161
Thanked 330 Times in 131 Posts
Default

Shock horror, there is such thing as treatment affect.

How does this get funding?

How does it get published in a peer review journal???


Is so easy to make this a proper study. Three groups, one gets Manips for 12 months, one gets MFR for 12 months one gets "chat". The results will be the same, both treatment groups will get small benefit, does not matter which you do. Yawn.

Chiro's will use conformational bias and cherry picking data and jump all over this. What this study does show is that a months worth of manips is useless and does not prevent long term disability. I can see the future of the NHS vanish as all lower back pain patients need “maintenance” ever week forever after back injury!!!
__________________
Dave

Last edited by Sheffphysio; 20-10-2011 at 04:18 PM.
Sheffphysio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 06:36 PM   #6
Jason Silvernail
Clinician and Researcher
 
Jason Silvernail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: El Paso, TX
Age: 40
Posts: 4,275
Thanks: 341
Thanked 958 Times in 285 Posts
Default

Clever.

From the "Results" section.
Quote:
"Patients in second and third groups experienced significantly lower pain and disability scores than first group at the end of 1-month period (P = 0.0027 and 0.0029, respectively). "
Note the use of the word "significant" and P value is provided. This means there is statistical support for the statement and a commonly understood threshold has been reached.

Quote:
"However, only the third group that was given spinal manipulations (SM) during the follow-up period showed more improvement in pain and disability scores at the 10-month evaluation. In the nonmaintained SMT group, however, the mean pain and disability scores returned back near to their pretreatment level."
Notice, no use of the word 'significant' and no P value. I wonder why?
Usually this is because the authors want to talk about a "trend" in the data that is not statistically significant. We shouldn't allow this in scientific papers because whatever trend you see that isn't statistically significant hasn't met the threshold for a difference and may very well be chance.

Haven't read the article so I can't say for sure, but the wording of the abstract sure is eye-catching for those who understand this particular statistical issue.
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
Jason Silvernail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2011, 07:27 PM   #7
Frédéric
Swaying against the breeze
 
Frédéric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Prévost Québec
Age: 38
Posts: 1,975
Thanks: 206
Thanked 219 Times in 98 Posts
Default

We discussed this article before, in march, when it was in the published before print version. Also Neil O'Connell at bim blogged about it ealier.

The sloppy methodology (poor choice of control groups for one) they used precludes us for drawing any conclusions as to the pertinence of prolonged SMT in CLBP. Prior knowledge in general about continuous use of passive therapies do allow us, to the contrary, to advise against it.

This study was designed to give the result it did. This way, they can now cite that study in future papers as if it was supporting evidence. This is borderline dishonesty imo.
__________________
Frédéric Wellens, pht
«We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.»
«
Those who cannot understand how to put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of debate.
»
Friedrich Nietzsche
www.physioaxis.ca
chroniquesdedouleur blog
Frédéric is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CT Support Force in Sprinting Ken Jakalski General Discussion 0 27-07-2011 08:22 AM
Starting a chronic pain support group Jon Newman General Discussion 42 24-03-2008 12:58 PM
Body weight support treadmill training BB General Discussion 5 01-09-2004 08:37 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014