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Old 07-12-2011, 11:09 PM   #1
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(Hi Caro,
I hope you don't mind my stealing your facebook thoughts and quoting them here. I don't think your thread got the recognition it deserves!)


First, Carol opened with this link. Materialien und Dokumente zum ideomotorischen (Carpenter) Effekt, hier die Originalarbeit. Don't worry, it's in English.

She comments:
Quote:
This text dates back to the 1850's and has never been disputed. It explains ideomotoric movement. Our culture compels us to repress this movement. It dates back from ancient, ancient times. You know, back when we had fins and needed to oscillate in order to become ambulatory. And though we crawled out of the swamps a long time ago. It's still there. To protect us and to correct us. Now if we could only get over how it looks already. (like blind people, musicians and little kids.)
Next, she posted this video of Ray Charles:


She commented:
Quote:
"Of course, it looks nothing like this in the context of manual therapy, I mean come on. I just love the tune. But look at the way he is moving. That is not just the music doing its thing. Look at him in interviews. He is CONSTANTLY moving. He's not repressing anything. As it should be. My uncle Jean, who was also blind always moved. Even when he was supposedly still. it was especially apparent when he was readingthe Braiile. I was fascinated by this as a little girl and watched him very closely. I remember asking my mother ''Maman, why does Parrain always move?'' She never answered. Probably thought I was nuts. Ooooh but I wasn't, he really was moving all the time. Ha.
What I look for, whereupon my hands land on my clients' SKIN (skin is the way in) is the EXPRESSION of this movement. All I am doing is creating the proper context for this to be revealed. It can be very,very subtle. The ensuing correction usually elicits surprise, warmth (and not always in the area you are treating. How could it. 72 km of nervous tissue courses our limbs.) You also get softening and ease. That ease sometimes translates as your client being able to lift that frozen shoulder in ways she hadn't been able for weeks. ''Holy shit! She might cry! Where'd that come from!'' It comes from her brain saying : Hmmmmm. This feels safe. This feels non-threatening. Okay, I'll stop outputting so much pain to protect you already. Allow for that isometric contraction to stop. Okay, okay I hear you. Seeesh."
Also:
Quote:
"Now back to the SONG. Try now, try remaining still while listening to this tune. I DARE you. Double dare. You can't right? That impulse, that need is CONSTANLY there. Yet, who really gives in to it? We don't. Because well, it looks kinda weird sometimes. And also because let's be honest, you can't exactly start dancing the funky chicken in the middle of a meeting just 'cause that hip of yours is driving you nuts. But can you see how repressing this DAY IN DAY out could result in a little something called PAIN. (Or in the case of little kids who we are always telling '' Honey, sit still now. Stop moving so much sweetie. STOP IT. OKAY THAT'S IT! I'M COUNTING TO 3. '' could result in their system crying ''I feel like crawling out of this meat suit. HELP! HELP! How 'bout I punch this kid right here just so that what I am feeling on the inside matches what I am seeing on the outside. Why is it nobody ever TAUGHT me how to tone things down a bit. And all of these damn colors and shiny things everywhere. AND the noise. All this noise! And that damn snow suit Mom has to sausage me into every damn morning. Oh and that car seat. Those damn straps kniving me in the stomach. AYAYAYE...'' But that' another story. ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQo6R...eature=related

So yeah MOVEMENT. Not necessarily exercise in a GYM. Just movement. A walk. Some dancing while your swiffering the floor and dusting your coffee table.Lying on the floor and exploring where that body of yours wants to go.( Don't do it in order to achieve perfect downward dog. You might hurt yourself.) Who cares how it looks?"



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Old 08-12-2011, 12:46 PM   #2
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I really hope a lot of people are reading this.

Countless times I've said "ideomotion is inherent to life, not to pain. This is followed some time later by a student asking, "When would you use ideomotion as a therapist treating a patient?" and my heart sinks.

As usual, Carol Lynn truly gets this. Maybe her efforts will have a more profound effect than mine.

It wouldn't be hard. My record stinks.
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:34 PM   #3
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Generally boys are more kinetic than girls, and need to move more- or maybe their ideomotive needs are just larger amplitude and therefore get the negative attention of teachers and parents?

Boys tend to be told more frequently to sit still, and have a significantly higher incidence of the label "attention deficit/hyper-activity disorder". We also know that boys aren't doing as well as girls in school these days.

In any case, it makes me wonder why females tend to have significantly higher incidences of persistent pain problems- on the order of 3 or 4 to 1 compared to males (although I realize that there is a confounding variable with women being more likely to access the health care system and become medicalized, but in the studies that I've seen that try to control for that, women still come out ahead).


Maybe males externalize the consequences of this repression through acting out behavior/aggression towards others whereas women internalize it and are therefore more likely to suffer persistent pain problems.

When I look at it this way, pain becomes more a cultural problem than an individual health or medical problem.

Great stuff, Carol Lynn.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
When I look at it this way, pain becomes more a cultural problem than an individual health or medical problem
With comments like that no wonder your a deadman John. I'm becoming to realize that I have to agree with that statement. Looks like I took another step toward my grave.
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by John W View Post
Boys tend to be told more frequently to sit still, and have a significantly higher incidence of the label "attention deficit/hyper-activity disorder". We also know that boys aren't doing as well as girls in school these days.

In any case, it makes me wonder why females tend to have significantly higher incidences of persistent pain problems- on the order of 3 or 4 to 1 compared to males
Just because boys are told to sit still, doesn't mean they oblige. Perhaps girls are more likely to value what others think about them, and comply with culturally repressed movement?
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:19 AM   #6
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I think girls on the whole (by no means all) express a need to be liked more than boys, and become more anxious if they don't feel liked.

Could be wrong, but I suspect boys handle social pressures with less angst than girls. This may transfer to the road to persisting pain being higher in females.

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Old 09-12-2011, 02:37 AM   #7
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When I was a student, a senior therapist observed that with respect to pain in the clinic boys and girls dealt with pain similarly until puberty at which time she felt girls were better at handling pain. I've probably seen less than 20 kids since 1982, so I've haven't really verified that observation for myself, but that would be odd for females to handle pain better in the early years, and more vulnerable to chronic pain.
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Just because boys are told to sit still, doesn't mean they oblige
I think that depends on temperment. There are both compliant boys and girls and more strong-willed/defiant boys and girls.

But, I think boys generally do need to move more, both in terms of quantity and quality (force, amplitude), and these movements are more likely to be forcibly suppressed in the school environment. Girls' kinetic needs are less pronounced and therefore less obtrusive, at least in the school environment. I don't think it's a coincidence that girls tend to thrive here much more so than boys currently are.

Instinctual movement is inherent to life, and that of young boys in particular can result in rather raucus and seemingly disruptive behavior. Classroom rules are enforced to repress it, and then society pays later.
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:57 PM   #9
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I have to say, Any sentence that begins with "Boys/Girls are..." is just begging for trouble.

I never say this.
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:32 PM   #10
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I agree with you Barrett, which is why I said ''little kids'' in the original post. I was one of those ''problem'' children myself. Drove my poor mother nuts. She didn't know what to do with me half the time poor woman. I've never been evaluated but I'd say considering my sensory issues (among other things), Asperger's syndrome is probably what's up with me. Oh well.

The post came from me trying to wrap my head and body around the experience of having presented, this Tuesday, in front of a committee largely vested in early childhood education issues, my ideas on storytelling as a tool to prevent and address ''hyperactivity''. Nothing at all to do with manual therapy. Funny eh?

I spoke to them about ideomotion, ''contextual architecture'', context, the importance of movement, the human NS' high energy demand, touch, skin etc Alouette! They got the whole deal! What did I care? I'm not part of that world anymore, save for my weekly storytelling gig at Bibliothêque de L'île des moulins, in Terrebonne. You should have seen these people taking notes! They want more! (We'll see about that. I've been nursing one of sorest necks I've had in years. I can sing in front of hundred people, no problem, but this, this nearly killed me. Context. It's a crazy thing.)

I have all of you to thank, for everything. I'm not holding my breath for any real change take place in this culture, any time soon.

But it sure felt good to get this stuff off my chest.
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:34 PM   #11
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I agree with you Barrett, which is why I said ''little kids'' in the original post. I was one of those ''problem'' children myself. Drove my poor mother nuts.
Me too. I had to go to a behavioral modification class in 4th grade because I was a bit too mobile for the norm. It worked for better or worse and I remember it as a positive experience.

My brothers/sisters dealt with it in a variety of other ways such as having me tie my shoelaces together and then telling me to see how fast I could run up and down the street.

I agree with the poor mother part. Father too.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:29 PM   #12
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Me too. I had to go to a behavioral modification class in 4th grade because I was a bit too mobile for the norm. It worked for better or worse and I remember it as a positive experience.


I agree with the poor mother part. Father too.
I had gymnastics and dance classes and that helped for awhile. I agree with John about little boys being much more kinetic in general, it was my experience anyways. I just hated that those little boys were often made to feel like this was wrong.( Not because I was better than the rest of my colleagues but because I so related to their plight. It's hard not to respond to what your body naturally compels you to do when most of your day is spent in an exceedingly stimulating environment.) My style of teaching was very ''boy friendly''. Lots and lots of movement. ( I still need it.) My last gig as a teacher was a dream, we literally had a football field in the yard and the other teachers didn't see anything wrong with me actually climbing the monkey bars and sliding those slides along side the children. '' All right Caro, you can go out and play now, we know we are boring you with our stories. '' ( Outdoor time is often a welcome occasion for teachers to congregate and socialize. Their way of modulating that old NS. But small talk? Makes me want to climb out of my skin. I'm not kidding.I don't know how to do it.) They didn't see anything wrong with me actually enjoying the task of dressing eight ragamuffins in their snowsuits. They just laughed and sent their own crew over.

But, I also made a point of TEACHING my boys and girls how to tone things down. There were vast swaths of ''doing nothing'' in my classroom. Natural light, a friendly reminder to speak in hushed tones ''Piano, piano everybody.'' To better keep things gentle and soft. Chillin'. And reading books. 3 times a day. Once in the morning upon arriving. ( Most kids' early morning routine is very hectic. Eat, get dressed in a hurry. Snow suit. Ouch. Car seat ouch. Mommy\Daddy with their ''busy'', frowning faces.etc.) Once before nap time and finally, once before the Mom\Dad pick up, to help weather an often stressful car ride back home. And always, whenever they want during the story, the possibility to come sit on my lap, (Skin's the way in.) should the impulse to move become too strong.

'' I need your lap Caro. ''

'' 'Kay hon. Come on over. ''

Pretty soon, I had a kid on each thigh and one just leaning on my back. Human primate grooming if I ever saw some.Skin contact. A child actually developing his locus of control. Her brain making connections. The story was just the card trick really. The illusion. Could be achieved with any other illusion I guess.

It's amazing how much you can teach kids by doing ''nothing''. So many wonderful occasions to show them how to problem solve and learn to interact. To teach them how to speak to one and other, kindly, with eye contact. Learn to be careful of one and other. To decipher all those facial expressions and ideomotoric ''tells''. I felt my colleagues propensity to favor activities geared toward ''producing'' a tangible result (Arts and Crafts for example.) left too many of those opportunities left unexplored. Now of course, it's hard to explain to the parents, at the end of the day, what you spent your day actually doing with their ragamuffins, when you work in this approach. The parents want something tangible, concrete : a Program. 9:00- Arts and Crafts. 11:00 Introduction to Socrates (Joke). I understand that.

They, are evolving in a result-oriented, TEME influenced culture. They have been conditioned to believe that the best way to develop productive autonomous individuals, is by exposing the child very early to a wide array of experiences. I'm not against that, not at all, I just don't think we are framing those experiences in the proper context. I failed as an early childhood teacher for many reasons but mostly because I couldn't communicate my ideas properly. Read : without being an arrogant, righteous turd.

You live, you learn. Oh well.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:20 PM   #13
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Caro, you tell great, connective, small stories in a great way.

Thank you.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:41 PM   #14
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Caro,

I had a teacher like you in the 1st grade. The best way I can describe that time spent in Miss Burger's classroom was that it continually flowed. I don't ever recall sitting in her class and learning a "lesson", although I'm sure I learned many.

I've never forgotten her, and I'm certain that your little ragamuffins will never forget you.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #15
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Thank you Bas and John. Thank you.

I got a call from one of the committee organizers today. She wants me to come present my ideas to her staff. I can do this, yep, I can. Science. Occam's razor\machete\chainsaw. They certainly help make things defensible and plausible.

Ray Charles was always a favorite in my classroom of course.

But so was this.



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Old 13-12-2011, 03:05 AM   #16
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This is an interesting thread...ever since learning about ideomotor movement, I've watched my patients and children a little more closely.

With my 3 3/4 year old son, I refrain, within the limits of safety, from forcing him to walk slowly and right beside me in public, and I let him jump on the bed and make pillow paths to hop on. We also dance, wiggle around, make faces etc. I don't want to suppress his need to move creatively.

With patients, I let them know that as I'm treating them, they might feel a need to move or stretch, and if they do, they should just do it without over-thinking it. I explain this as the body's need to "stretch from the inside". A lady today stretched her sore wrist in various directions with lots of cracking noises as I treated her - she said it was such a relief to hear it cracking as she moved it, since it was usually tight.

I've good luck eliciting this type of motion when treating the upper extremity, but not so much in other spots so far.

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Old 07-01-2012, 09:38 PM   #17
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Another example of ideomotion in the context of a musical performance. This time with Jeff Healy, guitarist extraordinaire. Marcus Miller on the bass, doing some pretty fancy ideomotoric movement of his own. Rock'n'Roll has always embraced this kind of movement and encouraged it. Note how the producers of the show visually broke up Doc John's (the piano player) solo. He is as still as can possibly be given the context and therefore BORING to watch...

In Rock'n'Roll, BORING, is not cool.


Context, context, context ...

*embedding of this vid brought to you by Byron Selorme's easy to follow directions.

Thanks Byron.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:41 PM   #18
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Do you honestly think Healy would have permitted himself to move in such a fashion had he not been blind? I'd venture to say he wouldn't have been so expressive.

Ideomotoric ''tells'' are what musicians use to communicate. See how Healy signaled to the piano player. Check out how the bass and drums are constantly communicating via facial expressions. That's how musicians roll. That's how you can show up for a jazz gig, never having met any of the musicians and still manage to play half way decently.

In Poker, you have to keep perfectly still, in music, not so much because you want the people around you to know exactly what's going on.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:55 PM   #19
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Default Simply irresistible.

Ideomotor movement is inherent to life : It exists in the organism as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.(dictionnary.com) Since it is in the same category as sensorimotor movement (startle reflex) and refleximotor movement (swallowing and breathing) it would make sense to posit that the repression of such a movement might lead to pain. You can withhold breathing only for so long and just try suppressing your reaction when someone jumps up behind you and yells at the top of their lungs. See how that works for you. The same principles apply to the repression of ideomotor movement. You can stifle the need to move but only for so long. However, the culture wherein the modern human primate is evolving does compel it or at the very least, strongly suggests that it suppress this need state to MOVE. For countless reasons : because of the way it looks, because of the way the culture tells us we should look, because most people are shackled to a desk and computer screen 10 hours a day, because it's '' impolite'' , is counter productive etc, etc, etc...

As a massage therapist I usually see clients who are at the end of their rope. They are in pain, have investigated the possible causes (without thinking about the origin of their pain) , have had fMRI's, X-Rays, seen physios, ostheopaths etc. They have taken medication, done the recommended exercises. Still, the pain persists. In one last desperate attempt at finding relief and freedom from their pain, they consult a ''therapeutic'' massage therapist.

When I took the Simple Contact seminar in Vancouver, I had already read a lot about ideomotion via Barrett Dorko's splendid essays and daily blog entries and contributions to the SomaSimple site. Still, my idea of what ideomotion might look like in the context of manual therapy or in my case, in the context of a massage, was vague at best. Yet, the movement's presence was indisputable to me. I attribute that to three three main reasons :

-I had spent a lot of time around a very dear uncle who was blind. He was also a pianist and piano teacher.
- I had spent a lot of time around musicians as my stepdad was a Jazz guitarist. I also sing.
-I had spent a lot of time around babies and toddlers.

(For the most part, the blind and toddlers, don't afford much importance to the appearance of their physical shell. So one can very easily detect the presence and expression of ideomotor movement in them. Musicians, especially Jazz and rock'n'roll musicians, rely on ideomotoric ''tells'' in order to communicate with one and other. Their culture encourages and embraces the movement since it serves a very specific purpose. It also looks cool.)

However, not everyone has grown up around blind piano teachers. Not everyone has been around small kids, or cares to spend time with that category of human primate . Not everyone has witnessed the interaction between Jazz musicians. Ideomotion, Simple Contact, (the method of manual care that aims to catalyse ideomotion during manual therapy) must be taught and explained and dare I say, framed within a very specific context. Barrett's seminar succeeded in doing this for me and I came home with a firm grasp on how I could incorporate it into my sessions. I strongly encourage my peers to seek Barrett's extensive writing on the matter and to take his class, should it be offered in their area.

Now back to the suppressed need to move so pervasive in our culture. When you spend time with kids, you quickly realize that it takes very little to shake their countenance, to destabilize them, break up their routine, make them feel unsafe. This often ends up being anxiety provoking to them. In this day and age, this era of constant bombardment of the senses, an immature and not as yet fully myelinated nervous system will often react to sensory overload by feeling an irrepressible need to move. And we usually allow it to do so and even encourage it, up until the age of oh, I'd say 5 years. After that, when the child starts kindergarten, any and all manifestation of the organism simply trying to modulate and self-correct takes on a very different meaning. Different context, different expectation, different interpretation. Now, what might happen when that organism isn't given sufficient exposure to experiences whereby its nervous system can learn to adapt, via graded exposure, to the ''stillness'' and postures being in a classroom require?

John Ware:
Quote:
'' I think normal, adaptive expression of instinctive movement persists into early childhood and probably starts to fade around when children get to school age and the "left-brain" world influences take over.''
I wholeheartedly agree.

Now, since this need state doesn't miraculously disappear as the organism moves into adulthood, is it such a stretch to surmise that given the very nature of modern life, this (albeit mature), nervous system, which is constantly assailed from every possible direction and by all kinds of unrelenting sensory input, might react by having a brain that outputs pain on regular basis in order for the body in which it is housed, to finally HEED that call to MOVE already?

The non-pathological pain I treat derives from MECHANICAL DEFORMATION of THE NERVOUS TISSUE. I am not a health care provider and was not medically trained. Any other category of pain lies outside of my scope of practice. But...

I can provide a warm, safe, welcoming context wherein my clients can remember what it feels like when the EXPRESSION of this movement isn't frowned upon.This movement might elicit some very interesting, temporary, analgesic effects. Experiencing this within their bodies might, in turn, lead them to making some changes in their life in order for what is experienced during the course of the massage, to be incorporated into their daily existence : a brief, restorative respite from the storm within. Perhaps this will take the form of a walk during lunch. Or, interspersed, frequent, mindful breathing breaks. Or carving out a quiet space in their home to reflect and move freely. Or allowing for vast swaths of ''nothing'' time to occur during the w-e instead of the usual hectic, warrior routine.

There are as many versions as there are individuals. And I strongly feel it is my role to steer them towards a better understanding of pain neurobiology in order for them to find the path toward self-reliance and autonomy in managing their painful complaints.

Their pain simply cannot wait.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)

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Old 08-01-2012, 12:50 PM   #20
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Carol Lynn,

This is wonderful, and I want to reference it when writing about ideomotion in Range of Motion, especially today's entry, Explaining - Again II.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:16 PM   #21
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Here's the blog post I am referring to.
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:02 PM   #22
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Carol Lynn,

This post of yours should be widely disseminated.

I suppose you could flesh it out with some references from the literature to give it more scientific weight, but I'm not sure that would make it better than it is now.

It would be a nice companion piece to Barrett's Analgesia of Movement, which has the requisite list of references. You could just insert a link to that wherever you post this to provide the more analytically-oriented readers with some scientific meat to chew on.

But, just as-is, this is a very poignant piece of writing.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:31 PM   #23
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Barrett, thanks for the heads up and reference. Getting the word out about Simple Contact means a lot to me, as you know. I wish I could do more. I wish I was one of those pushy, driven, ambitious types. Oh well...

John, thank you for the suggestions. I'll definitely look into tweeking and polishing the piece and adding references. Your encouragement and praise mean a lot to me as I am always impressed and inspired by your posts. I've even ''stolen'' some of them and posted them to my FB page. Now is as good a time to ask I guess: Is doing this considered a faux pas? Must one ask permission beforehand?

Thank you all again. SomaSimple is my ''safe'' place. I don't feel so weird and dysfunctional here.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:53 PM   #24
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Carol Lynn,

Please remember, you NEVER have to ask me.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:55 PM   #25
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Attribution + quote marks = implicit permission.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #26
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I don't know if carol posted this here - I though I saw it but anyway, here it is again:
More clarity from Caro. Catalyzing ideomotion to save lives.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #27
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Ah, here it is, the Smarty-pants thread begun by Byron.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:18 PM   #28
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The link is not working for me !! Why ??


"Facebook
This content is currently unavailable. This page cannot be displayed. This is possible is temporarily unavailable, the link expired, or you have no permission...
en-/note.php nl.facebook.com? note_id = 128940640478610 · Page in cache"

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Old 01-02-2012, 05:29 PM   #29
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The link works fine. Maybe you have to be facebook friends with Carol to see it.
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Old 15-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #30
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I liken what goes on in the person's system during SC, to the little baby. No one knows where she is going to go next, what she is going to do, when she is going to giggle. (Especially when she is going to giggle.) No one cares, that's the whole point actually. Given the nature of the human nervous system, trying to predict how it will react to my touch makes about as much sense as trying to contain one of those giggles...

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Old 15-02-2012, 04:15 PM   #31
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Where Does the Dance Begin, Where Does It End? Mary Oliver.

Don't call this world adorable, or useful, that's not it. It's frisky, and a theater for more than fair winds. The eyelash of lightning is neither good nor evil. The struck tree burns like a pillar of gold. But the blue rain sinks, straight to the white feet of the trees whose mouths open. Doesn't the wind, turning in circles, invent the dance? Haven't the flowers moved, slowly, across Asia, then Europe, until at last, now, they shine in your own yard? Don't call this world an explanation, or even an education. When the Sufi poet whirled, was he looking outward, to the mountains so solidly there in a white-capped ring, or was he looking to the center of everything: the seed, the egg, the idea that was also there, beautiful as a thumb curved and touching the finger, tenderly, little love-ring, as he whirled, oh jug of breath, in the garden of dust?
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 16-02-2012, 01:49 AM   #32
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Weird that you posted this poem here today, Carol Lynn.

I just compared ideomotor movement to the wind in that unending "trigger point" thread.

I may as well have posted this verse of yours.
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Old 16-02-2012, 01:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John W View Post

I just compared ideomotor movement to the wind in that unending "trigger point" thread.
Wow. THAT thing is still going?
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Old 16-02-2012, 03:21 AM   #34
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Hi John,


Quote:
Weird that you posted this poem here today, Carol Lynn.

I just compared ideomotor movement to the wind in that unending "trigger point" thread.

I may as well have posted this verse of yours.
I know right?
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Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 17-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #35
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Some more FB thoughts:

I feel one of my roles is to help clients find their own version of ''meditation''. There are as many as there are individuals on the planet. Sure, massage is one way, one very cool way of ''relaxing''. Problem is, people can become dependent on it, which ain't cool at all. So I have to steer clients towards carving out that quiet, warm, safe place on their own and incorporating vast swaths of down time into their daily lives. I am just there to give their Nervous Systems a new standard for what it feels like to inhabit that body of theirs when the environment is non-threatening. No phone is ringing, no kids are occupying their peri personal space, no one is asking them to be brilliant, productive. There is no need for them to be a WINNER. After they've got a good handle on the concept and have received lots of pain education and have a firm grasp on the importance of MOVEMENT and lots of it, in their daily lives it should be Ciao!

Until the next time.

Unfortunately for some, for those whose lives are just too crazy (3 kids, full-time, high responsibility positions, mortgage, car payments, aging or ill family members etc. ) the time spent on my table is the only time they get to feel ''safe''. And that's a damn shame. I have struggled a lot with this over the past year and a half and have taken the time to have ''The talk'' with each and every one of my regular clients about the importance of learning to tone things down on their own...

And then one lady put it in perspective for me. She said : '' Caro, when I can go to the bathroom on my own ( she has 2 small ones. ), when they stop following me every where around the house, then we'll start spacing appointments OK. In the mean time it's either I come see you or I drink myself silly every night. ''

Hmmmm.... Memes and the culture in general, are quasi impossible to fight. So I have to accept that I may be part of a client's life longer than say a PT or an OT or an Ostheopath. I always enjoyed doing (the often scorned upon by other MT's) Relaxation Massage. I enjoy it all the more now that I have some understanding of the nervous system. It took me close to two years to ''get'' this. Jeeez.

It's what I do man, make people feel good and relaxed. In this crazy day and age, providing this IS healthcare. I hope with all my heart the medical community becomes privy to this but until then, I'll proudly keep on keeping on ...

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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)

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Old 22-02-2012, 09:21 PM   #36
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Carol has nailed it once again. Here is her FB thread in which she reposted a blog post of mine. Rajam got it too.

I've always said that massage therapists could end up being our biggest allies in this effort to de-mesodermalize the thinking in manual therapy. It's OK to know about it, it's maybe even OK to "pretend" (briefly, perhaps, in the beginning) that one can affect mesoderm directly, in order to program in motor skills, but it's not OK for manual therapy to continue to be taught as ritual, as if mesoderm was all there was, or that manual therapists must become slick operators to be any good at their jobs. Crap. Rubbish.

At best, operator models are just training wheels; they should be set aside, just like training wheels, so that the therapist can ride a bike freely once they have the gist, the verb of the handling. After that, it should be interactor all the way.

From the therapist POV, it should be just the rider (therapist), the bike (his or her handling, minus training wheels), and gravity (patient), and their interaction along an open road (the treatment relationship).
From the patient POV, it should just be the rider (the patient), the bike (patient's nervous system), and learning how to ride it with a few minimal interventions (therapy) in his or her own life (gravity and the open road).
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Old 26-02-2012, 11:14 PM   #37
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Last Monday, I slipped and fell on patch of ice. Think Charlie Chaplin or Buster Keaton slipping on a banana peel. The result? EXCRUCIATING (and I am being as lady like as I possibly can.) pain in my lower back, right side. I didn't sleep for two days. I mean it. All better now (except for some minor ROM issues.) and nobody laid a finger on me.
What I did basically, twice a day and for about 45 minutes, is lie on the floor and just allow for my body to go where the hell it wanted. I paid very close attention to my breathing and to where\when I experienced a sudden surge of warmth in any given area. There were many of those ''warm'' moments. I liken the sensation to someone applying Vick's to the INSIDE of my body. I sometimes felt this in my leg, sometimes in my arms, sometimes in my butt. Now, I want to tell you that this wasn't purty. Wasn't pretty at all and not that I want to be giving you too much info here but I eat my weight in Hummus and all kinds of beans every day. So there. You can imagine what all that movement was doing to the ''atmosphere''. Butt in the air. Legs to chest. etc, etc.. The most inelegant, uncoordinated ''yoga'' you have ever seen in your life. Good thing no one was around to behold the sight. Ha. At times the pain was unbearable, so I'd move in a different direction. At other times, I'd stay there and just breathe because I knew it was safe. Diane had described her experience in the linked blogpost and I had read in fascination as she recounted her ''battle''. Maybe you'll enjoy reading it too...

Here is the link. http://humanantigravitysuit.blogspot...rozen+shoulder

P.S Byron, you need to teach me how to embed a link into text.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 26-02-2012, 11:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caro View Post

Here is the link. http://humanantigravitysuit.blogspot...rozen+shoulder

P.S Byron, you need to teach me how to embed a link into text.
I'll teach you how Caro.
  • Highlight the text you want to have the link active for.
  • Click on the icon with the chainlink picture against the blue globe picture.
  • A window will open. Put your link in the box.
  • Click on "OK".
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 27-02-2012, 02:52 AM   #39
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:03 PM   #40
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I just found this thread, thanks to Diane. I've been fuzzy on the concept of ideomotion and this is helping a lot, both the discussion and the videos. Coincidentally, it dovetails neatly with some changes in my own life where I am experiencing a deeper feeling of ease and more natural movement. It occurs simultaneously on an emotional/psychological level and a physical level; there is no separation between them.

How to bring this to clients? I don't know yet. I'll explore in myself and think about it, observe. I know understand a little better, though, why it is that I "know" some things about clients. I have known it is through observation and often responding to cues of which I am not conscious. However, the videos posted here take me to a much greater appreciation of how restricted and restrained we are in our lives, physically and mentally. How to bring ourselves and our clients into a greater sense of ease - I see that as a key element in my work and, I'm sure, an most important point in eliminating pain.

Thanks to Carol for putting this up, thanks to Diane for directing me here, and thanks to everyone else for their contributions.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:01 PM   #41
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Caro's excellent dog story.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 18-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #42
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Default In your own backyard.

Here is Patrick Watson an artist from my neck of the woods. Again, he is demonstrating a level of ease and freedom in his body to which I feel every human being on the planet should have access. Hey, I can dream a little can't I ?




I am reminded of this essay by Barrett Dorko.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 18-04-2012, 05:19 PM   #43
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Default The great escape.

Quote:
Again, he is demonstrating a level of ease and freedom in his body to which I feel every human being on the planet should have access. Hey, I can dream a little can't I ?
Especially when you consider that sadly, a very large proportion of those humans, live like this...

Is it any wonder, we often call illusionists, escape artists. Is it any wonder audiences around the world are captivated by their performances?




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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:58 PM   #44
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More clarity from Caro, in time for mother's day: a song sung by herself and her daughter, MAMAN ET MOI - HINHINHIN by Bon Iver.
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 20-06-2012, 12:31 AM   #45
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Caro has some great comments on Facebook about the new SBM post by Harriet Hall (linked into here), and the paper by Benedetti (linked into here).

Here is a link to her FB thread.

Quote:
I'm really grateful for Science based Medecine. Especially Harriet Hall's latest post on Benedetti's research. They are making me think. On the one hand, SBM's stance on this stuff TOTALLY drives me batshit. ''Oh for the love of Pete, will you get your heads out of your asses and just ADMIT that many doctors are completely oblivious to this research. Totally obtuse. Totally complacent in their positions and methods, unwilling to read anything that would SUPPORT and\or make very PLAUSIBLE, the logic (so simple really) behind having to behave empathically, kindly and compassionately. Because for me, this is largely what the research means.( Forget the damn sugar pills. Of course I agree about how unethical prescribing placebo treatments would be...) I'm talking about a growing body of research that SUPPORTS the need for doctors to take time, to talk, to demonstrate a genuine interest in the human being sitting before them. And no, this isn't a given in this profession. Puhleze. Even Sapolsky in the Zebras book, alludes to this : (on the famous Helicobacter pylori discovery): '' Clinicians celebrated at never having again to sit down with their ulcer patients, make some serious eye contact, and ask them how their lives were going.'' Ha.

Holy hell. Support for the infamous '' warm bedside-manner.'' Possible grounds for telling a brilliant med\nursing\physical therapy\occupational therapy student : ''Listen, you're fantastic. You understand disease at a molecular level. Your grades are impeccable. But. You suck at talking to patients. Big-time. You must read and familiarize yourself with this research or consider a career IN research...''

On the other hand, I completely agree with everything in the article. Worms. Can. Big-time. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3363375/
And I agree with everything Caro has said in this FB post, times three.

All except the part about how it won't get viewed except for 8 people on FB. Because now it's here too.

A bit further, Caro quotes:
Quote:
''Ignoring placebo is as much the wrong answer as overplaying it. We have some serious work to do in figuring out how to make honest and ethical use of what we know about ritual and expectation. Because if we don't, we're liable to be passed on the right, by people who don't give a tinker's damn about honesty and ethics.''
I agree but also think, actually, that "those who don't give a tinker's damn about honesty and ethics" have already passed the rest of us on the right several times already. Otherwise the world wouldn't be so cluttered with so many different traditions/religions (past, present, future), cults, cures, self-help books, gurus, and fake pills, copper bracelets, devices, etcetcetc., out there, or stores that sell them, or rich organized individuals pushingpushingpushing them, or rich individuals promoting them.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 22-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #46
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I've been carrying the feelings this movie has stirred, for days. It is completely germane to the aforementioned article and to Keith's new thread. And to Patrick's thoughts here.

There is a fine musician I know, an old-time legend here in Montréal. He also teaches. He's always trying to get his students to really get Jazz music. Most of the kids he teaches are proficient beyond understanding. They are brilliant sight readers and have extensive knowledge in musical theory. But. They just can't seem to get the feel for Jazz.

'' How can one teach this? This feeling... '' I've often heard him ask.

We have the Neuromatrix and Benedetti's research to teach us how to humanize the knowledge science imparts us.

It's all in there.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 24-06-2012, 09:08 PM   #47
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Today, Caro wrote this on FB:
Quote:
Whereupon my hands land on my client's ''peau''.
I have everything I need to interact with their ''cerveau''.
I don't deny that fascia's everywhere.
But at this point, I just can't seem to care...
Bilingual poetry.
Peau = skin
Cerveau = brain
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:14 PM   #48
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Default Never. Climb. In.

I posted this to my FB page yesterday. For a whole bunch of reasons. I think if you want to understand SimpleContact, Dermoneuromodulation, any type of manual or movement therapy and Crossing the Chasm, this video is a great way to start.

Michael Reoch posted this gem in the comments :

Quote:
Hand on sacrum other on neck. Wait for the big shuddering breath. NEVER CLIMB IN.
Baby girl has to learn how to get back to sleep on her own...

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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:37 PM   #49
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The SomaSirenSong.

I'm lying here silent,
A scent in the air.
A figure so helpless, bent in despair.
Distress thick around me,
This dress that has bound me
You mess now, we'll prick you right back to reality.

I know, Oh man, I know.

There is not much left of me,
Some flesh here and there.
A package so tiny,
Please handle with care.
You face me so quiet,
Contempt at the ready.
My case in the basket,
Unkempt so untidy.

I know, oh man, I know.

There once was a fire though now, ember is all that remains.
I don't remember having given you the reins.
But I still have my heart and all the beauty it contains.

They tend to me, patient, they know I'm still there.
But they are mending a patient when it's Me, who needs Care.
I want to resurface, crawl out of this cavity,
The pain serves no purpose,
A brawl outside of reality.

I know, Oh man I know.
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" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
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Alice Sanvito (08-12-2012)
Old 08-12-2012, 02:44 AM   #50
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Whereupon my hands land on my client's ''peau''.
I have everything I need to interact with their ''cerveau''.
I don't deny that fascia's everywhere.
But at this point, I just can't seem to care...
Oh, I just found this and I love it. You posted it on FB, I'm assuming it's okay to repost there?
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