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Eye-deas Ideas for our eyes. Food for open minded brains. This forum is dedicated to Diane.

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Old 04-03-2012, 09:02 AM   #1
Diane
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Default The new IMPROVED Neuromatrix Model

Here is a link to the old thread depicting the old neuromatrix model.
Melzack decluttered it lately.
Here is his new pared down version.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:34 AM   #2
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This is probay borne out of my ignorance but do recent advances by the likes of Tracker in neuroimmunology suggest that it should occur on both input and output?

Regards

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Old 04-03-2012, 10:54 AM   #3
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Cortisol and inflammation is interesting. How come chronic stress is linked with some pro inflammatory conditions when cortisol itself is an immune suppressor?
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by amacs View Post
This is probay borne out of my ignorance but do recent advances by the likes of Tracker in neuroimmunology suggest that it should occur on both input and output?

Regards

ANdy
I do not know what Thacker thinks about the matter (although I noticed that he kinda lumped Schwann cells in with immune cells in a review paper)... I haven't followed his work as closely as I should, probably.

As far as I am aware, the nervous system regulates the immune system and the immune system bugs the nervous system. Which ends up becoming the nervous system, or at least some aspects of it, bugging other aspects of it-self. It's not monolithic - it's an evolved system with lots of bits to it that mostly all, most of the time, get along quite well, except for when they do not.

On page 29 of this book, Melzack and Katz write,
Quote:
Clearly, consideration of the relationship between stress-system effects and chronic pain leads directly to examination of the effects of suppression of the immune system and the development of autoimmune effects. The fact that several autoimmune diseases are also classified as chronic pain syndromes—such as Crohn’s disease, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, and lupus—suggests that the study of these syndromes in relation to stress effects and chronic pain could be fruitful. Immune suppression, which involves prolonging the presence of dead tissue, invading bacteria and viruses, could produce a greater output of cytokines, with a consequent increase in cortisol and its destructive effects. Furthermore, prolonged immune suppression may diminish gradually and give way to a rebound, excessive immune response. The immune system’s attack on its own body’s tissues may produce autoimmune diseases that are also chronic pain syndromes. Thorough investigation may provide valuable clues for understanding at least some of the terrible chronic pain syndromes that now perplex us and are beyond our control.
Maybe too vigorous an effector capacity in the visceral afferent subsystem of the system? some weird genetic protein-opathy or channel-opathy? who knows?
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:58 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sheffphysio View Post
Cortisol and inflammation is interesting. How come chronic stress is linked with some pro inflammatory conditions when cortisol itself is an immune suppressor?
Like the nervous system itself, the immune response is not monolithic. Various parts of the nervous system regulate different aspects of the immune system, probably. Sort of a physiological, catch-me-if-you-can game through time?
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 04-03-2012, 03:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sheffphysio View Post
Cortisol and inflammation is interesting. How come chronic stress is linked with some pro inflammatory conditions when cortisol itself is an immune suppressor?
Is that reflective of our as yet poor understanding of the role of inflammation? It still seems to be cast in the role of the "bad guy" at times but is it really?

ANdy
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:58 PM   #7
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I want to make the case that this is an appropriate simplification of the original, that the model shown on that poster (do you know which one? Where is it and how can I turn it into a Power Point picture?) and that Decartes' picture is so simplistic that it actually wrong.

Maybe we can make this a communal project.

That way I get to do less of the actual work.

Thanks for putting this up again Diane. It is the foundation of my thinking.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:09 PM   #8
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Hi Dave,

Take a look at this paper by Chrousos from 2009 for a nice review of the role of the stress system in persistent pain.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #9
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I used this image in a blog post last night, New treatment encounter IV. I photoshopped it a bit in order to highlight the "treatment effect" we all want to see on the right side, regardless of whatever manual therapy belief system or operator model we may muck around with over on the left side.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Here is a link to the old thread depicting the old neuromatrix model.
Melzack decluttered it lately.
Here is his new pared down version.
My 2 cents, after a very quick review.

The top-left is part of extended consciousness, but the word *meaning* is far more complex and actually part of every level of consciousness (symbolic-proto, ecological-core, and cognitive-extended).

The middle-left is part of proto consciousness; specifically, the somato-visceral processing in the brainstem.

The bottom-left is part of core consciousness (limbic system), but also includes homeostasis and stress mechanism. It’s a little confusing, to me, because homeostasis would take place in the proto level of consciousness (life regulation).

I like the Pain Perception in the top right, because I don’t think sensation in and of itself can be painful.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:34 PM   #11
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I found this article quite interesting on the stress/cortisol link when I was looking at the hippocampus last year.

Stress Controversies: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, Hippocampal
Volume, Gastroduodenal Ulceration.

I will post the article in the vault - Sound of Silence

http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12584

Last edited by ste5e; 05-03-2012 at 04:41 PM. Reason: adding link
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:09 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ste5e View Post
I found this article quite interesting on the stress/cortisol link when I was looking at the hippocampus last year.

Stress Controversies: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, Hippocampal
Volume, Gastroduodenal Ulceration.

I will post the article in the vault but I am uncertain how to link to it.
I see you posted it in S of S - thanks!
You can go there, click on your thread, open the page, copy the url of the page, then bring it here, and plunk it into a post. It's that simple.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:49 AM   #13
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Here is a link to how I try to affect it with treatment, both hands-on and off.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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