SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > Barrett's Forums > Range of Motion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

Post New Thread  Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-04-2012, 12:20 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default Mesodermal movement III - Tressel's new friend

Tressel is the gentlest German Shepherd I’ve ever met, also the largest. My friend with the irritated nervous system (now resolving) bought a bunny for his grandson recently and normally it’s kept in a hutch in the garage, but occasionally they’ll bring it inside so that Tressel can play with it like he does everything else.

The long discussion about what methodology would best be used on “trigger points” has generated over 8500 views at this point so I’m sure a few of you have seen it.

Whatever else it may have accomplished, it made it clear that lateral movement of the skin rather than direct perpendicular pressure made a lot more sense when it came to manual methodology. The receptors dictate this.

Tressel doesn’t have any hands and he can’t control his paws nearly so well as he can his tongue. He knows better than to bite (read direct pressure), so he licks.

This is one lucky bunny.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tressel.jpg (7.1 KB, 20 views)
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com

Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 04-04-2012 at 12:59 PM.
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Barrett Dorko For This Useful Post:
caro (04-04-2012), Sabrina (05-04-2012)
Old 04-04-2012, 02:42 PM   #2
caro
Arbiter
 
caro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Age: 44
Posts: 868
Thanks: 1,799
Thanked 668 Times in 259 Posts
Default

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~vlev/docs/Luk-CHI06.pdf

A paper written by people who research mechanoreceptors for a living, in order to apply their findings to the creation of fancy technology, the stuff we see in sci-fi movies. The stuff that's in our future. In this context, lateral skin stretch is not a stretch...

Quote:
A device based on this technology, called the Virtual Braille Display (VBD) [9], has been used to render legible Braille dots using only lateral stretching of the skin.
Similar sensations can be achieved using technologies that push into the skin [20], but the lateral skin-stretch configu-ration is mechanically simpler and makes the most efficient use of the range of motion of commercially available piezoelectric bending motors [4], resulting in favorable power, size, and weight profiles. Such a configuration also provides internal mechanical grounding, as forces are generated between adjacent piezo elements.
We thus chose lateral skin-stretch as the most promising configuration for our next stage of design.

__________________
Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
caro is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to caro For This Useful Post:
Barrett Dorko (04-04-2012)
Old 04-04-2012, 03:28 PM   #3
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

This TED video is perfectly relevant here.

Regarding Carol Lynn's contribution: I'm reminded of the fact that we don't see with our eyes, but our brain. There's something more about the way Braille changes that organ somewhere I'm sure.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 02:38 AM   #4
Tom Bear
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 1 Post
Default The surgeon speaks

Well, I am the orthopaedic surgeon with the herniated disc that Barrett writes about. Barrett's understanding of the how the receptors in the skin arising from the ectoderm have such a profound effect on the entire nervous system is so simple that even Tressel my German Shepherd (No I haven't changed his name because OSU changed coaches, but that is for another web site.) and many other animals instinctively understand it. I am constantlly amazed that many of my colleagues in the physical thereapy and medical professions do not or will not buy into somethig that is so scientificaly sound. Despite the fact that my L4-L5 disc is one of the largest extrusions I have seen, Barrett is able to quiet my severe neuroclaudication each time he sees me. Each Wednesday night for the past two months I limp out to greet him, and when we are finished I walk painlessly to his car with Tressel tagging along. I am certain he will keep me practicing until my back surgery on the 27th of this month. And then he will quiet my post-operative pain with his touch. Tom
Tom Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Tom Bear For This Useful Post:
AdamB (22-04-2012), amacs (06-04-2012), Barrett Dorko (05-04-2012), Bas Asselbergs (05-04-2012), byronselorme (07-04-2012), Diane (05-04-2012), Michael Tankovich (06-04-2012), nari (05-04-2012), thrill96 (07-04-2012), vancouverRMT (06-04-2012)
Old 05-04-2012, 02:53 AM   #5
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

You are pretty sure you really need that surgery, are you Tom?
All the best.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 12:54 PM   #6
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

I have the distinct impression that movement of the mesoderm is necessary for lasting relief. As helpful as I've been, it seems obvious to me that changing the physicality of the problem will require things be done that I cannot do.

Sure, pre and post op care is essential and justifiable, but it will never replace what else needs done in this instance.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 04:07 PM   #7
gollygosh
Geralyn Giuffrida PT
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 422
Thanks: 241
Thanked 167 Times in 88 Posts
Default

Barrett,
Does "movement of the mesoderm" mean removal of the disc?
Is the disc preventing the movement that would allow corrective movement. At first I was surprised to hear you describe surgery as part of the cure. But at the same time I realize you are always specific that ideomotion/Simple Contact is about relieving mechanic pain. So in case like this, surgery, followed by Simple Contact makes sense to you.

Geralyn
gollygosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #8
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

Isn't it possible that the disc is interfereing with the restoration of adequate blood flow to the nerve? The surgical intervention makes sense to me.

When this is the case it's unlikely that ideomotion will always suffice. That doesn't mean that it won't help at all. I help create a context that Tom needs help with, but it's not enough.

I have NEVER said that ideomotion was always enough.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com

Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 05-04-2012 at 06:39 PM.
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 04:48 PM   #9
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

There's also this short thread.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2012, 11:07 PM   #10
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

It occurs to me that I never really thanked Tom for taking the time to write that. It's true that he's watched me struggle with his colleagues and the local therapy community since 1979 and not seen one bit of change in response to my efforts.

But his friendship and appreciation for my care keeps me going. Without it I may have left long ago.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 04:39 AM   #11
gollygosh
Geralyn Giuffrida PT
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 422
Thanks: 241
Thanked 167 Times in 88 Posts
Default

"Isn't it possible that the disc is interfereing with the restoration of adequate blood flow to the nerve? The surgical intervention makes sense to me."

It makes sense to me too. I guess I'm at this point that I tend to more suspicious of any intervention that will leave behind scar tissue. When the pendulum of idea swings, I have a tendency to over-correct, and so your posts here are what it takes to help me center.

Geralyn
gollygosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 05:27 AM   #12
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Barrett, I will try to remember this thread to link to when people decide to accuse us (you especially) of ignoring or diminishing the issue of tissue pathology.
I wish Tom a successful procedure with no complications; I know his aftercare will be just fine.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #13
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

I have the sense that scar tissue is often just conveniently blamed for problems that would be helped with the right movement if the therapist knew how to catalyze that.

Thanks Bas. I think that surgeons have an attitude toward therapy that only makes sense given what they've learned about what so many in the profession thoughtlessly do.

Yea, I said it.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 06:50 PM   #14
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

I'm sure Tom will select the very best.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 07:10 PM   #15
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

Perhaps he will, but I see his progression toward pain relief from many angles, all of them informed by his many years of practice.

He has colleagues that think I'm an idiot, just like other PTs they've never spoken to and wouldn't bother giving the time of day. Our profession's own fortress has come to rest against theirs and some of us are trapped between them, unable to enter either one.

Not a bad image - depressing, but not bad.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com

Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 26-05-2013 at 09:19 PM.
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 07:12 PM   #16
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Fortresses shaped like silos, and not many willing to escape by reading.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2012, 08:41 PM   #17
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

Diane, I've been working on the silo analogy.

So far, nothin'.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 12:13 AM   #18
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Here's something, don't know if it fits... I think each silo imagines itself to be a lighthouse. But when you look closer, mostly the lightbulbs are burned out, and it's... just a silo. Full of clutter. Stairwell blocked.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 04:58 AM   #19
zimney3pt
life long learner, clinician, and instructor
 
zimney3pt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sioux City, IA
Age: 43
Posts: 2,069
Thanks: 226
Thanked 1,004 Times in 363 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
You are pretty sure you really need that surgery, are you Tom?
All the best.

Diane, this thought has been sticking with me since you wrote it. I'm wondering with some people if the actually do need the surgery.


I'm thinking of this optical illusion. I know why square A looks darker then square B (history of pattern recognition with checkerboard and shadows, etc). But even after looking at this and using it with many patients and knowing the square A and B are exactly the same shade of gray. Square A still always looks darker then square B. I can't get over the illusion because my brain has been wired for too long on pattern recognition and shadows I can't over come it. I wonder with some people if this isn't the case as well with their pain, and that surgery might be the only way to overcome. Kind of like using the mirror box. Trade one illusion for another.

Don't anyone jump over me, I understand the disc is giving mechanical pressure to the nerve and that danger signals are being sent. So no the surgery would not be a total illusion or is the disc only an illusion.
__________________
Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

"Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

Last edited by zimney3pt; 07-04-2012 at 05:03 AM.
zimney3pt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:09 AM   #20
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Good question Kory.
I was thinking of Butler and Moseley's book, Explain Pain, in which they refer to discs as "lafts", or "Living Adaptable Force Transducers", and the one between L5 and S1 as "the last laft."

I remember in lectures their saying that people with no back pain can have extruded discs that are found accidentally/incidentally; other people with a lot of back pain have no visualized disc issue; i.e., (yet again) there isn't necessarily a one-to-one correlation, or even any clearcut relationship, between discs and back pain.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

Last edited by Diane; 07-04-2012 at 05:15 AM.
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:24 AM   #21
zimney3pt
life long learner, clinician, and instructor
 
zimney3pt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sioux City, IA
Age: 43
Posts: 2,069
Thanks: 226
Thanked 1,004 Times in 363 Posts
Default

Yes, those last LAFTs are a bad one for many people.

There have been a few studies from normal populations and around 40-60% of us are walking around with some form of disc lesion. One of the studies then followed these over time and those with them are at no greater risk for any future problems (7 year follow up study) then those without disc issues. Also disc protrusions have shown to shrink about half their size in an 8 week follow up study and completely gone in all those they looked at within a year.

I always make sure I point these studies out to patients. Because inevitably when their pain doesn't go away in couple weeks they are going to want an MRI. I try to make sure they know this stuff before they get the results that with a flip of a coin will probably show some disc lesion. It has helped a few times as patients have made the choice to not have surgery and wait it out while the body heals itself.
__________________
Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

"Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei
zimney3pt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 07:39 AM   #22
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

If you have them handy, we should put links to them in this thread.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 07:50 AM   #23
Ref in Rehab
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 55
Thanks: 26
Thanked 26 Times in 12 Posts
Default

Not specifically a study along the lines Kory spoke of, but interesting nonetheless....

World Neurosurg. 2012 Jan;77(1):146-52. Epub 2011 Nov 17.
Spontaneous resorption of sequestrated intervertebral disc herniation.
Orief T, Orz Y, Attia W, Almusrea K.
Source
Department of Spine surgery, Neurosciences center, King Fahad Medical City, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The aim of this study is to describe six cases with spontaneous resorption of sequestrated intervertebral disc herniation observed using magnetic resonance imaging. In addition, the possible mechanisms, predictive factors of spontaneous disappearance of the sequestrated disc herniation, and the proper surgical timing were discussed and reviewed in literature.
METHODS:
All the studied cases experienced acute radicular pain due to sequestrated intervertebral disc herniation; they refused surgery and were treated conservatively, and they were followed up neurologically and radiologically in the outpatient clinic in regular visits.
RESULTS:
The studied cases included five cases with lumbar disc herniation (three at level L4-5 and two at level L5-S1) and one case with cervical disc herniation at level C5-6. All patients recovered from their radicular pain within 3 to 6 weeks, and it was correlated with resorption of their sequestrated intervertebral disc herniation as documented in their follow-up magnetic resonance imaging at 4 to 9 months.
CONCLUSIONS:
We found that sequestrated disc herniation has potential for regression, which can be clearly demonstrated by magnetic resonance imaging, because of having higher water content, and therefore, may regress through both dehydration and inflammation-mediated resorption. We suggest conservative treatment in the initial course of the sequestrated type of disc herniation for at least 2 months before recommending surgical intervention unless severe neurologic deterioration takes place.
Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
__________________
Sean Weatherston, PT, OCS
Ref in Rehab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 07:59 AM   #24
Ref in Rehab
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 55
Thanks: 26
Thanked 26 Times in 12 Posts
Default

On the older side, but here are a few studies about the natural history of disc herniations:

Radiology. 1992 Oct;185(1):135-41.
Lumbar disk herniation: MR imaging assessment of natural history in patients treated without surgery.
Bozzao A, Gallucci M, Masciocchi C, Aprile I, Barile A, Passariello R.
Source
Department of Radiology, University of Rome La Sapienza, Policlinico Umberto, Italy.
Abstract
The aim of this study was to evaluate the evolution of lumbar disk herniation in patients treated without surgery. Sixty-nine patients with a lumbar disk herniation proved at magnetic resonance (MR) imaging underwent a follow-up MR imaging study. The disk herniations evaluated during both MR imaging examinations were measured and classified into four categories according to the change in size that occurred. The patients were also divided into three clinical classes on the basis of the clinical outcome. Sixty-three percent of the patients showed a reduction of disk herniation of more than 30% (48% had a reduction of more than 70%), while only 8% demonstrated worsening of the clinical picture. These findings suggest that lumbar disk herniation may be primarily a medical (nonsurgical) disease and that MR imaging could play an important role in management of and research into the disorder.

Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 1992 Aug;17(8):927-33.
Lumbar disc herniation. Computed tomography scan changes after conservative treatment of nerve root compression.
Delauche-Cavallier MC, Budet C, Laredo JD, Debie B, Wybier M, Dorfmann H, Ballner I.
Source
Department of Rheumatology, Hospital Robert Ballanger, Aulnay-sous-Bois, France.
Abstract
In 21 patients with computed tomography-diagnosed lumbar herniated nucleus pulposus, nerve root pain resolved after conservative treatment. A subsequent computed tomography scan was performed 6 months or more after presentation. This follow-up computed tomography scan was compared with the initial one. A definite decrease in size of the herniated nucleus pulposus was observed in 14 patients: disappearance in 5, obvious decrease in 5, and moderate decrease in 4. No definite change was observed in seven patients. Major computed tomography scan changes occurred significantly more frequently in large herniated nucleus pulposus than in small ones (p. less than 0.05). This study suggests that large lumbar herniated nucleus pulposus can decrease and even disappear in some patients treated successfully with conservative care.
PMID: 1387974 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
__________________
Sean Weatherston, PT, OCS
Ref in Rehab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 12:27 PM   #25
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

What a great thread.

I think the optical illusion is especially relevant, and, as Kory said, impossible to overcome.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #26
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post

I think the optical illusion is especially relevant, and, as Kory said, impossible to overcome.
I would agree, unfortunately.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 01:20 PM   #27
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

I don't know Diane, a world without illusion would not be livable.

Check out the last line of Row, row, row your boat.

I think this is the last line of Alice in Wonderland as well.

Then there's this:

Quote:
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.

Edgar Allen Poe
I don't think we want, need or could tolerate anything else.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 03:59 PM   #28
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Just a quick note: I have a herniated disc at C6-7 encroaching and compressing C7 root and a broad-based L3 disc bulge that encroaches on my spinal cord (imaging done with MRI). I had the imaging done because of persistent symptoms with my left arm - pain and unchanging weakness - and unrelenting left thigh numbness and weakness.

In the same week as the results became available, the six month-long symptoms started to clear and I have not had any problems - golfing and doing big choreography is just fine. For a while I was considering I might have to have something "done".
Glad I didn't.

PS: my doctor was also much in favour of waiting it out. I like him.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
norton (07-04-2012)
Old 07-04-2012, 05:55 PM   #29
PatrickL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,004
Thanks: 678
Thanked 851 Times in 297 Posts
Default

Quote:
There have been a few studies from normal populations and around 40-60% of us are walking around with some form of disc lesion. One of the studies then followed these over time and those with them are at no greater risk for any future problems (7 year follow up study) then those without disc issues. Also disc protrusions have shown to shrink about half their size in an 8 week follow up study and completely gone in all those they looked at within a year.
Kory, can you post these articles? I'd love to be able to show these to patients
PatrickL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 10:18 PM   #30
thrill96
Ecto Padawan
 
thrill96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 331
Thanks: 118
Thanked 59 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
What a great thread.

I think the optical illusion is especially relevant, and, as Kory said, impossible to overcome.
I haven't posted in a while, but I'm going to get back to it. I just want to say how grateful I am to folks like Barrett, Diane, Bas, Jason, Kory, etc who make comments like the ones above. It refocuses me and puts things back into perspective.

Grazie tutti!

Will
thrill96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 11:08 PM   #31
zimney3pt
life long learner, clinician, and instructor
 
zimney3pt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sioux City, IA
Age: 43
Posts: 2,069
Thanks: 226
Thanked 1,004 Times in 363 Posts
Default

Here is a starting list of some studies.
__________________
Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

"Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei
zimney3pt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zimney3pt For This Useful Post:
Diane (07-04-2012)
Old 08-04-2012, 12:48 AM   #32
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Here are a few of the papers that Kory kindly stashed for us, ones that are open access.
Definitely worth a close look.

1. Jensen 1994 Magnetic Resonance Imaging of the Lumbar Spine in People without Back Pain

2. Boden 1990 Abnormal magnetic-resonance scans of the lumbar spine in asymptomatic subjects. A prospective investigation

3. Jost 2004 MRI Findings in Throwing Shoulders

4. Matsumoto 1997 MRI of cervical intervertebral discs in asymptomatic subjects

5. Takada 2001 Natural history of lumbar disc hernia with radicular leg pain: Spontaneous MRI changes of the herniated mass and correlation with clinical outcome
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 02:59 PM   #33
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

These wonderful references (well, wonderful unless you make money on the testing) are setting the stage for a series I'll begin this week titled Becoming minimal.

Watch for it.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 05:43 PM   #34
Jess Brown
Member
 
Jess Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 40
Posts: 63
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
I don't know Diane, a world without illusion would not be livable.

Check out the last line of Row, row, row your boat.

I think this is the last line of Alice in Wonderland as well.

Then there's this:



I don't think we want, need or could tolerate anything else.
Illusions and dreams help us cope with....pain....stress...life...

Barrett, Chicago agrees with you: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1342564.html
__________________
Jess Brown, PT, OCS
Jess Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 07:17 PM   #35
John W
Harmless creampuff
 
John W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Age: 49
Posts: 5,709
Thanks: 1,483
Thanked 2,360 Times in 937 Posts
Default

Barrett,

Latecomer to this thread, but I must ask: Are you sure that's not one of those rare Slavic Shepherds?
__________________
John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
"Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3
John W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 08:00 PM   #36
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

Wikipedia tells me there is such a thing, so now I believe you and don't think you're making some obscure joke. Thanks Wikipedia!

Slavic or not, today's blog post refers to many animals with the same inclination.

Ironically, it also depicts a Slovak working on a Slavic.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 08:08 PM   #37
John W
Harmless creampuff
 
John W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Age: 49
Posts: 5,709
Thanks: 1,483
Thanked 2,360 Times in 937 Posts
Default

Obscure joke? Moi??
__________________
John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
"Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3
John W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 08:31 PM   #38
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 62
Posts: 15,396
Thanks: 1,360
Thanked 2,704 Times in 1,526 Posts
Default

Jess, Thanks.

I think this massive response exemplifies the fact that, unleashed, the desire inherent to life, movement and creative activity will surprise many.

It's even news. Why doesn't my therapy community use it?
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline   Reply With Quote
Post New Thread  Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mesodermal movement II - The problem of value Barrett Dorko Range of Motion 10 18-03-2012 12:55 AM
Mesodermal movement Barrett Dorko Range of Motion 16 16-03-2012 10:09 PM
A little help from my friend. caro Eye-deas 4 14-09-2011 03:05 AM
Friend in need daniboy General Discussion 6 13-03-2008 05:26 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2013