SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #1
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default Sorry team, Posture again

Ok this is more of a recap of what I think I've understood from many threads here and finally my brain has had a spasm, kinda WHOA wait so what your saying is....

That posture and pain are poorly correlated.

That when people who are in pain feel better after "posture exercises" essentially there is a neural event (PLEASE EXPLAIN, KNOWLEDGABLE ONES) that has occurred that has allowed the posture to change and not a biomechanical repositioning that is responsible. Hmm as I type this I think they are the same thing, just seen through different lenses. By using a biomechanical modality we could have soothed a troubled nerve area and hence we get a release of distortion. Or we use a "nerve" technique and we get a soothing of a nerve area and a release of distortion. The error I have heard discussed here is that we think using posture as a map toward pain reduction is incorrect thinking. Those shoulder retraction exercises just happened to provide action and gliding in the supra scapular nerve and delivered fresh blood to the system.
Grrr! I can't seem to separate them in my head! did the slumped posture compress the nerve or was the nerve troubled and created this posture? The former seems WAY more obvious. I'll stop stream of consciousness typing and get your feed back.


Questions:
First, please comment on the above. THink of me as a newbie and leave nothing out. Let it be known that I have read pretty much every posture thread here at SS so I am aware of the discussion. I am trying to reword my understanding in a way that I haven't seen it said yet.

If someone comes to you for pain and you successfully reduce that pain experience do you always notice posture changes? Should we not regularly see posture changes if pain is the driver of distortion?
Do we always see people's bodies move toward a similar postural position if there is a postural change? Or do some people upon pain resolution move toward strange/bent/asymmetrical position?


I suspect that posture is a direct, holistic expression of mechanical options. By that I mean the expression of a certain daily posture is derivative of the person's access AND use of his full movement spectrum. WOuld you agree?

Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zendogg For This Useful Post:
byronselorme (09-07-2012)
Old 08-07-2012, 07:09 PM   #2
Ken Jakalski
Senior Member
 
Ken Jakalski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 63
Posts: 2,118
Thanks: 382
Thanked 1,342 Times in 580 Posts
Default

Hi Nathan!

I'll take a shot at this, via Mel:


Grant Jenkins once asked Mel the following questions:

And what happens when one picks up some "imbalance?" I now know that posture is not affected by only muscle size but can also be neural. Does this mean that nothing can be done to help correct the posture of the athlete. I have seen some good results from people with scoliosis and do believe that exercises can help (depending on the actual problem).

Mel: Changes in posture due to pathological structure, such as scoliosis, limb fracture, tissue damage or polio are a very different matter from functional changes due to individual differences in technique or function. One can, for instance, decrease the degree of scoliosis by the application of electrostimulation, but the same method will not correct defective sporting skills. The latter can be altered by conditioning offered by repetition of appropriate physical skills."

I've always found this interesting, especially since I coached a 6' 9/3/4 track athlete 33 years ago who was told by a sports physician at Augustana that his scoliosis was so bad that it would never allow him to run.

The irony: he had run both cross country and track for me throughout high school with no issues. And, he became a four year letterman at Augie where he ran the 400 without any injuries. Obviously this is anecdotal, but it does relate to Mel's point.

How much can one do for a leg length difference? I tend to think that unless this LLD is severely affecting the person, the body will probably adjust. Trying to correct this problem might lead to further problems and "confuse" the body.
Mel: "Correct - the healthy, uninjured body is not meant to be structurally symmetric and every individual shows definite differences in functional symmetry of action done by the different sides of the body in both unilateral and bilateral movement. The body relies on neuromuscular processes to optimise contributions by different muscles and joints. As is often said:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Last edited by Ken Jakalski; 08-07-2012 at 07:11 PM.
Ken Jakalski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 07:18 PM   #3
Ken Jakalski
Senior Member
 
Ken Jakalski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 63
Posts: 2,118
Thanks: 382
Thanked 1,342 Times in 580 Posts
Default

Here's another from Mel on posture:

"One of the major problems with simplistic assessment of "posture" is that far too many postural "experts" try to extrapolate measurements taken under static or very constrained laboratory conditions to dynamic sporting and daily activities. Thus, if postural evaluations are to be a lot more valid, then they have to be taken via the use of high speed video and other biomechanical instrumentation during real life situations. Even then, this process is by no means definitive. One also has to note that posture changes from instant to instant and does not even recruit the same muscles in the same way all the time, especially since fatigue can readily lead to compensatory patterns of action (which, by the way do not necessarily lower overall efficiency or safety)."
Ken Jakalski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 07:39 PM   #4
Richard Finn
SomaSimpler
 
Richard Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 415
Thanks: 388
Thanked 268 Times in 117 Posts
Smile Mel?

Who is Mel? What is the reference? I don't recognize the name. Enlightenment , please! (That's why I come here
Richard Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 07:42 PM   #5
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,953
Thanks: 3,157
Thanked 6,346 Times in 2,887 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Finn View Post
Who is Mel? What is the reference? I don't recognize the name. Enlightenment , please! (That's why I come here
(they're referring to Mel Siff, who is a really dead dead man. I was not privy to any of his collected wisdom while he was alive, only second-hand, here. I think he was a fitness trainer or something.)
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
Richard Finn (09-07-2012)
Old 08-07-2012, 07:56 PM   #6
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,591
Thanks: 1,955
Thanked 1,468 Times in 642 Posts
Default

Mel Siff was an very well-read man, teacher and weight lifter extraordinaire. South African if I am not mistaken. Was very much involved with a Russian researcher for a while (Varkohansky - or something like that).
One of the single most knowledgeable people on the subject of weight training and exercise - to date.

Zenn, the conundrum is not really a conundrum. Motion can restore pain-freedom. The "thought-process" of the therapist does not matter - for that particualr effect.

BUT, the thought process of the therapist does matter as it pertains to his/her explanation to the patient: who is ultimately THE source of long term correction and understanding.
If the patient leaves feeling better with the biomechanical explanation, s/he will undoubtedly think "biomechanics" with the next painful incident/experience. And that is not where pain lives......
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
Richard Finn (09-07-2012)
Old 08-07-2012, 08:10 PM   #7
Ken Jakalski
Senior Member
 
Ken Jakalski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 63
Posts: 2,118
Thanks: 382
Thanked 1,342 Times in 580 Posts
Default

Here's a part of Mel's bio:

"Mel Siff was a Senior Lecturer in the School of Mechanical Engineering at the University of the Witwatersrand (popularly known as 'Wits' university), Johannesburg, South Africa, where he was been on its staff for about 30 years.

He had a PhD in physiology specialising in biomechanics, MSc (Applied Mathematics) awarded summa cum laude in brain research, BSc Honours in Applied Mathematics and a BSc (Physics, Applied Math). His serious involvement with the Internet began when he devised the unique concept of electronic education in sports science based on methods of propositional analysis pioneered by the ancient Grecian philosophers. This enterprise created the well-known weekly P&P's (Puzzles & Paradoxes) and F&F's (Facts & Fallacies) which he wrote for various user groups, including Sportscience, Physio, PTHER, FIT-L, Sport Psycho and Weights.

His main teaching duties at his university were in applied mechanics, biomechanics and professional communication. Previous appointments have included Acting Headships of the Sports Administration and the Communication Studies Division at his university, the latter post having involved him in researching communication models, the visual image, human symbol systems and language processing. Besides lecturing to engineering students, he regularly lectured to physiotherapy and physical education students at several universities in his country.

He has presented numerous papers at over 100 conferences in sports science, sports medicine, physiology, physical education, ergonomics, engineering, psychology, chiropractice, communication and linguistics. He has written more than 150 papers and books in these disciplines and was author/co- producer of the rock opera 'Genesis Won'. He has addressed numerous conferences of the NSCA in the USA and Australia, as well as IDEA in the USA and the Exercise Association in England.

After several working visits to Russia, he and renowned Russian scientist, Dr Yuri Verkhoshansky, wrote the major textbook 'Supertraining - Special Strength Training for Sporting Excellence'. This extensive volume offers one of the few definitive treatises available on integrated Western-Eastern methods of sports training. His other book 'Facts and Fallacies of Fitness' has become very popular among fitness professionals and the general public. "
Ken Jakalski is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ken Jakalski For This Useful Post:
Richard Finn (09-07-2012)
Old 08-07-2012, 09:40 PM   #8
TexasOrtho
Arbiter
 
TexasOrtho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huffman, TX
Age: 42
Posts: 1,677
Thanks: 965
Thanked 750 Times in 270 Posts
Default

I just refer to him as "The Man". Mel was an outstanding writer and had a knack for deconstructing huge temples of dogma within the exercise science community.

Ever heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? It is a good representation of how I see posture. This principle states that the more you know about a particle's position, the less you can know about it's momentum and vice versa.

Posture and function are inextricably tied together, BUT practical and useful correlations are nearly impossible. The more you know about an individual's static posture, the less you can predict how it will relate to the dynamic postures seen during a functional task. The reverse also works.

Can I call this the Henderson Postural Uncertainty principle?

__________________
Rod Henderson, PT, ScD
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift
TexasOrtho is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to TexasOrtho For This Useful Post:
BB (09-07-2012), Ben Sabo (11-07-2012), Bill Jones (17-07-2012), byronselorme (09-07-2012), CDano (09-07-2012), ste5e (09-07-2012), zimney3pt (09-07-2012)
Old 08-07-2012, 10:21 PM   #9
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,953
Thanks: 3,157
Thanked 6,346 Times in 2,887 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasOrtho View Post
Can I call this the Henderson Postural Uncertainty principle?


I think so! That's great Rod!
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 01:11 AM   #10
Greg Lehman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 342
Thanks: 132
Thanked 197 Times in 74 Posts
Default

I think posture is irrelevant always. I dont think it represents some pain state that is resolved with changing mechanical deformation nor do if think it must be corrected to decrease a pain state. Further, when i say posture i mean some static position that people adopt. The form that people choose during the performance of a task is adiiferent story.

Posture changing with the resolution of a pain state is not something i look for. I think it is neither correlation or causation. It is its own separate thing.

If posture is relevant in terms of a mechanical deforamation theme then this is probably at a millimeter level rather than at a centimeter level that you can actually see.

References available upon request.

Greg
__________________
Greg Lehman BKin, MSc, DC, MScPT
No letters allowed learned on weekends.
Physiotherapist
Chiropractor
Greg Lehman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 01:22 AM   #11
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Nathan I appreciate your asking this.

I am also working hard to find where bio-mechanics, posture, etc means anything. Because it has such a strong correlation with what people think of in terms of a Yoga class (will help me have a better posture) as well as the fact that each position we take is called a posture. Trying to fit the wide variety of normal deviations into any kind of formal "correct" or "better" alignment/ posture is entirely troublesome.

It doesn't seem to cause everyone the trouble it causes me. I am troubled by that.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 04:02 AM   #12
tom Reeves
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 48
Posts: 120
Thanks: 35
Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Default

The vast, vast majority of my patients who have upper trap pain, headaches, "impingement syndrome", rotator cuff tendinitis have protracted scapulae and usually have a head held forward.

I have seen and successfully helped patients resolve symptoms that have been treated for months by passive treatments from MDs DCs and massage.

I see them for two or three visits to teach postural modification/awareness, they are empowered. i talk about biomechanics and the relatively extreme position poor posture puts the tissues, including the muscles, the bones, the blood vessels, and the nerves. Certainly the nerves are the conductor of nociception but the position that they are held in is, in my opinion, the root of the problem.

If their husband is a jerk, their kid is in jail, they hate their job, and their dog is sick, it makes it harder and with those people, there is a heavier emphasis on the neuromatrix education, how the autonomic nervous system and an elevated sympathetic tone can heighten alertness to potential threat, real or imagined.

I have them recall a time when they were young and were walking in a dark place that was familiar to them in the daytime when they heard a rustle or a twig crack. I describe to them that in the caveman days that hyper-alertness may have saved their lives and allowed their genes to be passed on. And how they ran the fastest that they have ever run because of the primal, instictive response is to shunt blood to the muscles and to the brain and that response persists to this day. Stress causes us to be hypersensitive to inputs and how our brains interpret those inputs can lead to more of a pain state.

I really don't think it is possible or even desirable to separate the biomechanical from the neurological. Perhaps some here agree with that but to someone who is learning to better treat "pain" as it is defined here, it seems that the tendancy of many on this forum is to dismiss anything mechanical. I think that maybe longer I read here the less I feel that way but I totally understand how those that are newer here than me could arrive at that conclusion.

I understand that how you explain pain to people is important, ne essential to helping many people. But, other people just need a mechanical trigger to remind them to move more, and moderate extreme positions that are held for long periods of time. Call it what you want, I choose to call it posture.
tom Reeves is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tom Reeves For This Useful Post:
Dawatson (08-08-2013)
Old 09-07-2012, 04:15 AM   #13
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,953
Thanks: 3,157
Thanked 6,346 Times in 2,887 Posts
Default

Quote:
nerves are the conductor of nociception but the position that they are held in is, in my opinion, the root of the problem.
I can't argue with that part..
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 04:30 AM   #14
TexasOrtho
Arbiter
 
TexasOrtho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huffman, TX
Age: 42
Posts: 1,677
Thanks: 965
Thanked 750 Times in 270 Posts
Default

Note that I never said it (posture) is irrelevant. Only that its relevance is sorely conflated and misplaced in most clinical reasoning strategies. Posture is the body's motor response to a wide range of sensory, cognitive, and affective inputs. The postural motor response is evaluated and the cycle continues. I think the patient is in the best position to evaluate it if given the opportunity.

Looking at the forward head or lateral shift of a patient and saying "that's the problem" is a major misstep. Particularly if the more plausible alternatives aren't considered.

Tom, I think postural education is a poor-man's version of mindfulness-based activities. Patients are more aware and attentive to an area. Therefore they are more likely (theoretically) to make a more realistic appraisal of sensory inputs. The clinical result is less pain and improved function.

Again. Most of us "do" the same things but often have significantly different conceptual models.

The BIG difference I see between "postural awareness" and mindfulness model is that the latter prompts the patient to construct a better solution for a wide range of activity. Encouraging "better posture" implies one (or at least very few) solution. The latter also affords the patient more autonomy...another BIG difference.
__________________
Rod Henderson, PT, ScD
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

Last edited by TexasOrtho; 09-07-2012 at 05:29 AM. Reason: clarification...me no grammar good
TexasOrtho is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to TexasOrtho For This Useful Post:
Bas Asselbergs (09-07-2012), BB (09-07-2012), CDano (09-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 06:18 AM   #15
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Thank you everyone for taking the time to discuss this subject again. It was great seeing the often misunderstood concept that all things mechanical sometimes appear to get railroaded here, and yet I see Diane wholeheartedly acknowledging some of the mechanical concepts.
I guess this whole business of learning something new... It's like you have to drop so deep down the dead man's tunnel and shed all the crap before you can come back out again and see behind the curtain. Where once it was, how is THIS technique or approach gonna fix this body, now it is how will this body respond to this technique. Luke's point of how everything is explained to the client is especially poignant.

Byron, as a yoga instructor myself I have been more and more impressed with Mr. iyengar's teaching. Perhaps we can discuss more in another thread but for now I'll say that by understanding, ne GROKING, the concepts in movement and position and action that he speaks of has been immense helping me to help others to move/stand/feel better. I teach a posture therapy class at my work and essentially what I do pick an area of interest, say the shoulder blades, and I will breakdown the all the movements that the scaps can do. I teach novel movements of the scups and surrounding area not to necessarily help the posture per se, but to teach Rod's concept of mindfulness. It is my growing discovery that the more access someone has to their full movement potential the better their posture is as a result. My sneaky way of taking a complex subject like yoga asanas and sharing this wisdom under the guise of posture. As it happens, vanity appears to be a greater motivator than health.

Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:24 AM   #16
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

While we're at it and I am in the midst of full cognitive meltdown (can't reason out anything because my head is too full on Soma)...

Would anyone care to make clear the difference between a movement therapy like a neural glide or tensioner, a yoga pose, graded motions and their proposed effects

AND

a manual technique like DNM, SC, massage....and their proposed effects???

How are these categories of therapy different or the same in terms of what they are affecting in the brain, the nervous system (peripheral and central) and the surrounding tissue.

This may be a big question but I would love to get a better understanding of what the heck it is that I am actually interacting with through each.
Thank you,
Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:30 AM   #17
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,953
Thanks: 3,157
Thanked 6,346 Times in 2,887 Posts
Default

Nathan, you are interacting with everything through all of them.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), Dawatson (08-08-2013)
Old 09-07-2012, 06:33 AM   #18
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,953
Thanks: 3,157
Thanked 6,346 Times in 2,887 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zendogg View Post
yet I see Diane wholeheartedly acknowledging some of the mechanical concepts.
What you see is Diane not being able to argue with one particular single point, and that's from a tunnel syndrome perspective, so, neurodynamic, not necessarily biomechanical in any "joint" based sense.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 11:41 AM   #19
CDano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 275
Thanks: 77
Thanked 52 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by byronselorme View Post
Nathan I appreciate your asking this.

I am also working hard to find where bio-mechanics, posture, etc means anything. Because it has such a strong correlation with what people think of in terms of a Yoga class (will help me have a better posture) as well as the fact that each position we take is called a posture. Trying to fit the wide variety of normal deviations into any kind of formal "correct" or "better" alignment/ posture is entirely troublesome.

It doesn't seem to cause everyone the trouble it causes me. I am troubled by that.
If you are a ballet teacher, you teach certain posture, not because it's healthy but because it's part of ballet. Yoga seems to think it's postures are better when they are simply different.

My personal solution as a teacher is that there are 'artistic' ways to do poses which will require some effort to get your body to do them the required way. And there are 'exploratory' ways of doing poses which have no such rules imposed on them. I make no other claims regarding the poses.

This is really straight out of developmental gymnastics and in my mind should be completely obvious, if yoga were to be taught like any other art. The thing is yoga is taught by people who want to be stars. They make yoga to be something it's not creating all this confusion over matters that should be very basic.


I don't think anyone here is saying there is something wrong with changing posture in a given context, just don't use it to cure pain.

I've see plenty of gymnasts with 'horrible' posture, no pain, and when they go on the mat suddenly the posture is totally different. To me this is normal and healthy.
CDano is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CDano For This Useful Post:
Chancellor Mobley (15-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 12:53 PM   #20
tom Reeves
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 48
Posts: 120
Thanks: 35
Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasOrtho View Post

Looking at the forward head or lateral shift of a patient and saying "that's the problem" is a major misstep. Particularly if the more plausible alternatives aren't considered.
Great point Rod. I have never thought of the lateral shift as a cause of any problem, but the body's attempt to find a "happier" position. The difference in my mind is that normal, asymptomatic people don't assume and remain in the lateral shift, they do assume what I would call "crappy posture" and remain there for hours at a time.

But its funny how one simple sentence (see Rod's quote above) can illustrate a point perfectly. I get that. Thanks for being patient.
tom Reeves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 01:48 PM   #21
Mark Hollis
Senior Moment
 
Mark Hollis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 40
Posts: 500
Thanks: 364
Thanked 618 Times in 251 Posts
Default

Quote:
Would anyone care to make clear the difference between a movement therapy like a neural glide or tensioner, a yoga pose, graded motions and their proposed effects

AND

a manual technique like DNM, SC, massage....and their proposed effects???

How are these categories of therapy different or the same in terms of what they are affecting in the brain, the nervous system (peripheral and central) and the surrounding tissue.
To me, the term proposed in 'their proposed effects' is part of what makes the difference and similarity between. The story that gets delivered (or proposed) concommitantly by the therapist helps provide context and highlight co-relationships for a client (including swaying the predictive aspect for the future 'their effect'). If i poke someone and tell them it's unknotting a muscle or clearing built up muscle toxins it's enforcing a different set of beliefs/thoughts/expectations about who they are and how they work than if I poke them and tell them about nerves/sensitization/etc. If i tell someone they must move to stretch tight joints/muscles or align chakras it's a different context to nerve/sensitization/etc. Intentionism maybe?!

Also for me, manual technique does have a reactive interpersonal aspect of how a person responds to the approach and biomechanical force production (no matter how small) of another whereas movement technique has a proactive environmental interaction aspect of how a person self applies biomechanical force production to themselves via the environment. Another self from extrapersonal space is poking in at me and how do i respond dilemma vs i am poking my self out into extrapersonal space dilemma. (I guess Maitland technique is how does the person respond to both dilemma's at once 'i'm getting poked and being asked to move'). Everytime i physically engauge with someone I am presenting them with a dilemma/challenge.

Diane wrote
Quote:
you are interacting with everything through all of them.
For me i'd add 'All of the time, irregardless of what theory you believe in.'

I must admit my understanding and appreciation of biomechanics has changed greatly since I joined Somasimple and I'd like to thank you all for that
Mark Hollis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mark Hollis For This Useful Post:
Bas Asselbergs (09-07-2012), caro (09-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 01:52 PM   #22
ste5e
SomaSimpler
 
ste5e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Harrogate UK
Age: 46
Posts: 540
Thanks: 373
Thanked 374 Times in 165 Posts
Default

My opinions on posture.

We have yet to finish the evolutionary transition from four legs to two OK? And we are nowhere near evolving to the chair. We are mostly static as a means of being good wage slaves and being dynamic is what is more healthy (but not in a rigidly defined, repetative way). So postural pain is normal human experience.
After all its just a label. The name of a stick our profession has learned to beat folk up with so well that the folk now pick up that stick themselves to beat themselves with despite us trying to wrestle it from their hands. Nasty meme has a life of its own because a disturbing number of human beings actually default to blaming themselves about stuff - blame the parents, and their parents, too.
Patients want a reason for their suffering and in our society posture is one of the reasons they can choose or be given. All said and done it is easier to be told to do a few exersices every hour than it is to redirect your career away from sedentary traps.
Worse yet it posture is associated with duality - good and evil. Look at an actor doing 'evil' - bad posture (and usually a physical disability as well). Well surprise me suddenly somewhere tender with something unusual but people with good posture have pain too. Posture is for PT what thin is for the dieting industry. What youth is for fashion. It is a misattributed concept that is used to scare folk who are having difficulty adjusting to the fact that LIFE HAS SOME PAIN IN IT SOMETIMES! Sorry. Quite a lot of the time actually. For some people.
We should not be making these people blame themselves - that is just cruel. We have to lift them out of that paradigm and turn them around. Explain it to them. Pain is normal. Suffering is normal. Do not get sold on the idea it is abnormal. That way unhappiness and poverty lies. As the avoidance of normal experience is doomed. And expensive. Old people trying to look young. Big people trying to be small. Did King Canute have to sit in the tide to teach people nothing?
Postrual pain is normal and just your body saying "Hi there" but in its mean voice.
Move on.
Kind thoughts,
Steve
__________________
Peering over the shoulders of giants.

Know pain. Know gain.
ste5e is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ste5e For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), Diane (09-07-2012), Freshy (20-07-2012), GreigT (13-07-2012), Kaspars (09-07-2012), pierrevontrap (10-07-2014), zendogg (09-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 02:06 PM   #23
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 63
Posts: 16,631
Thanks: 1,780
Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,764 Posts
Default

The difference between Simple Contact, and DNM as methods and all the others mentioned is their emphasis on instinctive movement and choreography. SC and DNM have decided to trust the patient much more so than the others.

Please remember that the first two (SC and DNM) offer scientifically plausible explanations for their effect and the others often far less than that. With SC and DNM you manually "dance" with the patient but the patient leads, and they do so moving actively via an unconscious motivation.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Barrett Dorko For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), Luke Cook (10-07-2012), Mark Hollis (10-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 02:17 PM   #24
MaxG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 334
Thanks: 87
Thanked 132 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom Reeves View Post
The vast, vast majority of my patients who have upper trap pain, headaches, "impingement syndrome", rotator cuff tendinitis have protracted scapulae and usually have a head held forward.
More often than other patients?
I can't confirm your experience, tom.
Many people I see have the "protracted scapulae, head held forward" posture, by far not all have any of the issues you've listed above.
But I wouldn't be surprised if many people with a painfull shoulder region assumed a protective muscular contraction of the respective musculature (traps, serratus, pecs, whatever).
MaxG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 02:41 PM   #25
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,591
Thanks: 1,955
Thanked 1,468 Times in 642 Posts
Default

"Defense vs Defect"
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), TexasOrtho (09-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 04:53 PM   #26
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Ste5e! Nice work.

CDano wrote:
Quote:
If you are a ballet teacher, you teach certain posture, not because it's healthy but because it's part of ballet. Yoga seems to think it's postures are better when they are simply different.

My personal solution as a teacher is that there are 'artistic' ways to do poses which will require some effort to get your body to do them the required way. And there are 'exploratory' ways of doing poses which have no such rules imposed on them. I make no other claims regarding the poses.
I agree to some extent but I think there is much more to it than that. THe yoga postures have far more to offer than shape. Each posture offers its own unique access to position, action, reaction, non-action, elongation, contraction, organic position, nerve stimulus. If we are thinking that we compare a yogic expression of a posture to a ballet or gymnastic expression the comparison will end at appearance only. I suppose you could go a little further in that movement is examined in both ballet and gymnastics but there is no attention to whether they are producing benefit or harm. Only if they are producing a adequate exhibitionism.

Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 05:34 PM   #27
CDano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 275
Thanks: 77
Thanked 52 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zendogg View Post
Ste5e! Nice work.

CDano wrote:


I agree to some extent but I think there is much more to it than that. THe yoga postures have far more to offer than shape. Each posture offers its own unique access to position, action, reaction, non-action, elongation, contraction, organic position, nerve stimulus. If we are thinking that we compare a yogic expression of a posture to a ballet or gymnastic expression the comparison will end at appearance only. I suppose you could go a little further in that movement is examined in both ballet and gymnastics but there is no attention to whether they are producing benefit or harm. Only if they are producing a adequate exhibitionism.

Nathan
Nathan this is the same claptrap that yoga teachers fed me for years to keep me from doing other activities.

Don't you think dance moves, gymnastic moves, juggling, walking down the street offer the same potential for 'unique' access, I learned as much about movement, and what I used to call yoga, from walking down the street then on my mat.

How does one get to a high level of exhibitionism without learning something about awareness and control? When does a yoga pose go from a vehicle of self-awareness to one of exhibitionism, because in my 30 years experience in yoga, I found there to be and proliferation of the latter, and those who could not exhibit would dismiss those who could as exhibitionists.

My point is, whatever yoga poses have to offer is not unique, it's only being sold as that. There is no 'right' posture, but each art has it's own unique definitions, that suit it's purposes. Only yoga pretends that 'right' extends outside the performance arena.

There's nothing wrong with yoga, but Byron's question was regarding the long time trend in many yoga styles to define posture not only with in the style, but then to take the leap and say that there is an ideal posture that people should be molded into. Go to an Iyengar workshop and they will tell you all about how they can mold someone.

I went through a good deal of it, constantly trying to have 'perfect' posture for years, when I quit, oddly I felt better. If I'd left the posture on the mat I would have felt better all along.
CDano is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to CDano For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), Diane (09-07-2012), Luke Cook (10-07-2012), MaxG (09-07-2012), ste5e (11-07-2012)
Old 09-07-2012, 06:12 PM   #28
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,591
Thanks: 1,955
Thanked 1,468 Times in 642 Posts
Default

CDano, I agree.
It takes mindfulness/attention to learn from movement - it is not the movement itself that teaches us that. In that context - any motion will do.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #29
caro
Arbiter
 
caro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Age: 45
Posts: 954
Thanks: 2,009
Thanked 752 Times in 299 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs View Post
"Defense vs Defect"


If someone came to me, after a long fast, it would never occur to me to feed them a copious meal. I would suggest some fruit juice or light broth. I wouldn't want to overwhelm the system. And so it should be whereby the door to my office is sealed shut and I begin to interact with my client's nervous system. A slow, thoughtful dance toward resolution and through the defense...
__________________
Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
" Toute douleur déchire ; mais ce qui la rend intolérable, c’est que celui qui la subit se sent séparé du monde ; partagée, elle cesse au moins d’être un exil. Ce n’est pas par délectation morose, par exhibitionnisme, par provocation que souvent les écrivains relatent des expériences affreuses ou désolantes : par le truchement des mots, ils les universalisent et ils permettent aux lecteurs de connaître, au fond de leurs malheurs individuels, les consolations de la fraternité. C’est à mon avis une des tâches essentielles de la littérature et ce qui la rend irremplaçable : surmonter cette solitude qui nous est commune à tous et qui cependant nous rend étrangers les uns aux autres. ''
Simone de Beauvoir (Tout compte fait)
caro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:41 PM   #30
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Nathan,

My experience mirrors that of Cole's.

I have long since abandoned much of what the Iyengar community promotes. I think Mr Iyengar did some good things (I think) by getting stuff written down and breaking that old secret knowledge thing. But unfortunately I think he has set in motion an ideal of posture that thousands of people strive to meet. Not once in a workshop have I heard seasoned instructors give the participant a choice. There has always been an implied (overtly or covertly) right way of doing things. The participant had to "get" it. And they had to get it while there was the pressure of others watch to see whether they got it and felt better.

I think it is no wonder that so many PT's that are Iyengar teachers.

Yoga as a therapy has a very long way to go if anywhere at all. Yoga as an activity has lots of fun and interesting side lines.

I don't think anyone makes a distinction between the two.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to byronselorme For This Useful Post:
caro (09-07-2012), CDano (09-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 05:03 AM   #31
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Cole and Byron, Just to see if we are talking about the same thing in different terms...

I am not suggesting nor do I subscribe to an "ideal" posture/asana as an across the board standard that everyone should be able to fit into. I also do not hear from the Iyengar community or Iyengar himself saying to stand in such and such a way to "have better posture". What I do hear, practice, and give credence to is that within the forms/asanas/shapes there are ways of extending your limbs, connecting to the floor, engaging your muscles, etc., that allow the body to expand, release tension, access misunderstood or forgotten movements. Are these the only positions that one can find to make these subtle adjustments and learn about one's movement capacity? No. However I think that one can analyze how one has entered a pose and make corrections. The corrections go way beyond just an extension of the physical body as well. There are very distinct mental effects that come with creating actions in this way.

Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 05:28 AM   #32
Simon Thakur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 214
Thanks: 322
Thanked 134 Times in 64 Posts
Default

The ideal yoga postures are those in which you can remain alert, stable, and comfortable for long periods while progressively releasing held tension from the entire body, and which do not restrict the movements of the physical structures involved in breathing in any way. This then allows you to focus your attention on more subtle aspects of body-breath-mind than you are usually able to do when your posture needs to be adjusted every couple of minutes due to physical discomfort. Meditation is the point, and extended meditation is actually one of the very few activities that require the maintenance of any particular "posture" for long periods - for just about everything else, it's probably a lot easier and more beneficial just to move around in ways that feel comfortable.
Simon Thakur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 05:34 AM   #33
Mark Hollis
Senior Moment
 
Mark Hollis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 40
Posts: 500
Thanks: 364
Thanked 618 Times in 251 Posts
Default

Zendogg,

I like your posts, i always get to think a lot afterwards.

Quote:
That posture and pain are poorly correlated
.

For me the crux is that posture and pain are poorly correlated in scientific studies however people come in reporting a self diagnosed correlation of posture and pain and I'm having to respect both opinions by finding which science applies to the person and which person applies to the science.

If a person says they hold/move this way and it hurts I have to believe that they believe that belief (their correlation theory) but I don't have to believe their causation theory.
Mark Hollis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Hollis For This Useful Post:
zendogg (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 05:58 AM   #34
TexasOrtho
Arbiter
 
TexasOrtho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huffman, TX
Age: 42
Posts: 1,677
Thanks: 965
Thanked 750 Times in 270 Posts
Default

I have absolutely NO qualifications as a yoga instructor. However when I do some limited coaching on the poses, I've always encouraged a "calm in the storm" approach. There is quite a bit of muscle activity with the poses. But if performed well, the nervous system offers just enough (not too much or too little) tension to achieve a quiet controlled pose. Breath control seems to play a major role here. This is one of my primary vehicles to discuss mindfulness with patients in later stages of rehab BTW.

For the instructors reading this thread, how close am I?
__________________
Rod Henderson, PT, ScD
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift
TexasOrtho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 07:00 AM   #35
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Thanks for continuing the discussion everyone.

Anoop and Rod, All I can say is that taking a very deep interoceptive look doing poses gives an opportunity to examine what a position feels like. In my experience it is remarkable how making subtle adjustments to how my body performs an asana can bring about (meaning non-volitionally) a mental state of expansion, calm, peace. If the asana is done sloppily or without much attempt to "open" my body then the mental state seems to follow suit. It is dull, without brightness (I equate that with wonderment).

Now I will propose my own undoing. The "positive", expanded state could have been created by an endogenous endorphin response to the depth of movement I was taking the pose to. So far i doubt that because I don't tend to feel any "stretching" in the poses as it the word is familiarly used. There is only a sense of having supported each sequential segment such that the body sort of lets go into more depth. While holding that depth a significant calm is felt and sustained for a good while after practice. I have done the asanas in such a way that I feel significant "stretching" as we all know it and it leaves me feeling depleted and nervous.

In the end though I think there is nothing particularly special about the mechanism that physical exploration provides. If i speak from a personal point of view, I find the discoveries of areas in my body that I hadn't even felt before to be exhilarating and I can see how my everyday physical and mental state has become a reflection of the humble and respectful way that I play. But in the end there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Check this out: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/253576/
I believe the quote is "cherish your stoke".
Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zendogg For This Useful Post:
TexasOrtho (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 07:35 AM   #36
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

CDano
Quote:
Nathan this is the same claptrap that yoga teachers fed me for years to keep me from doing other activities.
(PS I love these words: claptrap and flapdoodle, etc!)

I doubt that many ballet or gymnastic PERFORMERS are doing the art for the purposes of health. Rather they are doing it for the benefit of a positive reaction from their audience.

Of course one would learn much by becoming able to take a body to such depths. But I as I said above the motivation for acquiring that knowledge is unlikely aligned with the reasons someone partakes in the personal exploration that is yoga as it is presented in its holistic format. For example, I am never going to be able to do some of these postures the way an east Indian could simply because of genetics. But my back does extend and I can learn how I am moving correctly within the joint anatomy, the movement of the surrounding structures, the effects on the sense of myself and much more.

I work in an environment where I get to see 30+ people everyday in each yoga class I teach attempting to move their arms over their heads. these are well heeled people mind you. The nightmares that I see on a daily basis are astounding. I am not referring to the unfortunate person who is demonstrating an orchestrated scapular elevation in order to comply to an instruction. I am referring to all sorts of strange, unaware attempts to lift arms. These people don't know if their arms are straight! Is straight arms a requirement to go through life pain free? I doubt it. But how you do anything is how you do everything. I think these bodies are crying for motion. Complete motion. Motion is lotion I've heard it said here. Would you walk with one leg out at 45 degrees rather than underneath you? If not, why not? Where do we draw the line? "No, you should probably bring that leg underneath you to not torque your knee as much. Lets see how that affects things." Well if that is better, then should you stop there? Where does the "correction" stop? And why there? If there is more to do that aids a body to express itself maximally (not pathologically) then why not access it? What neurological effects does recovering these expressions provide? Does having awareness of how your skin is moving, the organ of intense examination here at SS, provide one with a greater depth of his relationship with his environment? Is there less fear when access to these depths of movement are called upon in a fall? How does that confidence express itself mentally and emotionally?
have I missed it? Isn't this what we are trying to provide our patients? A respectful, educated awareness of their very own action figure?
Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 08:16 AM   #37
Randy Dixon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 552
Thanks: 5
Thanked 83 Times in 45 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=zendogg;134484]Ok this is more of a recap of what I think I've understood from many threads here and finally my brain has had a spasm, kinda WHOA wait so what your saying is....

That posture and pain are poorly correlated.

I just want to point out that what we are discussing is not really about correlation but causation. I think it is possible that we can see certain postures with certain pains. Moving away from PT because the example is only meant to be illustrative, if someone has a stomach pain, they usually hunch over and clutch their stomach. This is a correlation. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is causation or even predictability, although of course, correlation is always present with causation.

I just wanted to make sure that the wording is clear, because even if some correlation between pain and posture is shown, this doesn't make it especially meaningful.
Randy Dixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 10:46 AM   #38
CDano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 275
Thanks: 77
Thanked 52 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Dixon View Post

... if someone has a stomach pain, they usually hunch over and clutch their stomach. This is a correlation. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is causation or even predictability, although of course, correlation is always present with causation.

I just wanted to make sure that the wording is clear, because even if some correlation between pain and posture is shown, this doesn't make it especially meaningful.
It also doesn't imply that the cure is not clutching your stomach.
CDano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 11:04 AM   #39
CDano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 275
Thanks: 77
Thanked 52 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zendogg View Post
CDano
(PS I love these words: claptrap and flapdoodle, etc!)

I doubt that many ballet or gymnastic PERFORMERS are doing the art for the purposes of health. Rather they are doing it for the benefit of a positive reaction from their audience.

Of course one would learn much by becoming able to take a body to such depths. But I as I said above the motivation for acquiring that knowledge is unlikely aligned with the reasons someone partakes in the personal exploration that is yoga as it is presented in its holistic format. For example, I am never going to be able to do some of these postures the way an east Indian could simply because of genetics. But my back does extend and I can learn how I am moving correctly within the joint anatomy, the movement of the surrounding structures, the effects on the sense of myself and much more.

I work in an environment where I get to see 30+ people everyday in each yoga class I teach attempting to move their arms over their heads. these are well heeled people mind you. The nightmares that I see on a daily basis are astounding. I am not referring to the unfortunate person who is demonstrating an orchestrated scapular elevation in order to comply to an instruction. I am referring to all sorts of strange, unaware attempts to lift arms. These people don't know if their arms are straight! Is straight arms a requirement to go through life pain free? I doubt it. But how you do anything is how you do everything. I think these bodies are crying for motion. Complete motion. Motion is lotion I've heard it said here. Would you walk with one leg out at 45 degrees rather than underneath you? If not, why not? Where do we draw the line? "No, you should probably bring that leg underneath you to not torque your knee as much. Lets see how that affects things." Well if that is better, then should you stop there? Where does the "correction" stop? And why there? If there is more to do that aids a body to express itself maximally (not pathologically) then why not access it? What neurological effects does recovering these expressions provide? Does having awareness of how your skin is moving, the organ of intense examination here at SS, provide one with a greater depth of his relationship with his environment? Is there less fear when access to these depths of movement are called upon in a fall? How does that confidence express itself mentally and emotionally?
have I missed it? Isn't this what we are trying to provide our patients? A respectful, educated awareness of their very own action figure?
Nathan
Zenn, forgive me if I'm making a wrong assumption here, I'm basing that assumption on things I heard over and over in my many years being part of the yoga community. Things that, upon looking outside the yoga world, I realized were patently untrue.

The yoga community loves to bring up this PERFORMANCE issue as some sort of proof that yoga is better.

First yoga itself can be just as much a performance as the aforementioned activities. In the same way the aforementioned activities, and in fact ANY activity can be, meditations or simply healthy pursuits.

The only real difference on this level is just that, they are different. In some cases the major difference is speed of performance. Yoga is generally very slow, and there is lot's of time to observe the very real effects you mention.

Dance etc tend to be fast, so it does engage a different mental facility, but in my experience takes as much if not more awareness and concentration, it's simply a different, not superior, not inferior kind. Ideally, I think both are useful. They do not transfer, take it from me learning basic tumbling and trampoline at 49, my 31 years of yoga are of little help there.

In fact, dancers and gymnasts etc also spend time on the slow, and drilling refining movements, in a way very similar to yoga. In this way it COULD be argued they are more not less complete.

Try a beginning ballet class, it's all very basic and very mindful, including how to lift the arms in a specific way.

Secondly, even IF the performance is the goal, how much time do these people spend performing compared to practicing and learning? I can tell you it's a lot, 4 hours a day is not unusual.

Finally the vast majority of dancers, gymnasts etc are doing these things not to perform, but as a hobby, just like yoga. They do then for the same reasons people do yoga, including for health. Only a select few are professionals or even aspiring to be.

Now, in none of this am I saying yoga is bad. I am saying yoga is marketing itself as being better and using the kind of arguments you are making here. These arguments are not true.

Yes, motion is lotion, find the motion you like and encourage others to do the same, whatever it may be.
CDano is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CDano For This Useful Post:
byronselorme (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 11:48 AM   #40
Simon Thakur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 214
Thanks: 322
Thanked 134 Times in 64 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasOrtho View Post
I have absolutely NO qualifications as a yoga instructor. However when I do some limited coaching on the poses, I've always encouraged a "calm in the storm" approach. There is quite a bit of muscle activity with the poses. But if performed well, the nervous system offers just enough (not too much or too little) tension to achieve a quiet controlled pose. Breath control seems to play a major role here. This is one of my primary vehicles to discuss mindfulness with patients in later stages of rehab BTW.

For the instructors reading this thread, how close am I?
This is definitely a useful approach, and a central part of yoga training as I understand it: the intention is that the breathing should be steady and comfortable throughout even the most challenging movements. This doesn't mean that the breathing will always be steady and comfortable, but the intention creates an ongoing awareness of the state of the breath so that we are more likely to notice exactly when (and thus how or why) the breath becomes unsteady or uncomfortable. This can happen because of physical work but is just as likely to happen due to changes in the thoughts or emotional state or attentiveness, and the ongoing gradual building up of these experiences ("when I move like this I feel nice, when I move like that I feel less nice, when my mind does this it feels nice, when it does that it feels bad, when this happens my breath changes like this, when my breath is like that I feel like this..."etc) is what is described in various old texts as the development of "discriminative wisdom"
Simon Thakur is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Simon Thakur For This Useful Post:
TexasOrtho (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #41
Simon Thakur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 214
Thanks: 322
Thanked 134 Times in 64 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDano View Post
Zenn, forgive me if I'm making a wrong assumption here, I'm basing that assumption on things I heard over and over in my many years being part of the yoga community. Things that, upon looking outside the yoga world, I realized were patently untrue.

The yoga community loves to bring up this PERFORMANCE issue as some sort of proof that yoga is better.

First yoga itself can be just as much a performance as the aforementioned activities. In the same way the aforementioned activities, and in fact ANY activity can be, meditations or simply healthy pursuits.

The only real difference on this level is just that, they are different. In some cases the major difference is speed of performance. Yoga is generally very slow, and there is lot's of time to observe the very real effects you mention.

Dance etc tend to be fast, so it does engage a different mental facility, but in my experience takes as much if not more awareness and concentration, it's simply a different, not superior, not inferior kind. Ideally, I think both are useful. They do not transfer, take it from me learning basic tumbling and trampoline at 49, my 31 years of yoga are of little help there.

In fact, dancers and gymnasts etc also spend time on the slow, and drilling refining movements, in a way very similar to yoga. In this way it COULD be argued they are more not less complete.

Try a beginning ballet class, it's all very basic and very mindful, including how to lift the arms in a specific way.

Secondly, even IF the performance is the goal, how much time do these people spend performing compared to practicing and learning? I can tell you it's a lot, 4 hours a day is not unusual.

Finally the vast majority of dancers, gymnasts etc are doing these things not to perform, but as a hobby, just like yoga. They do then for the same reasons people do yoga, including for health. Only a select few are professionals or even aspiring to be.

Now, in none of this am I saying yoga is bad. I am saying yoga is marketing itself as being better and using the kind of arguments you are making here. These arguments are not true.

Yes, motion is lotion, find the motion you like and encourage others to do the same, whatever it may be.
Spot on. In terms of strength, flexibility, balance, body-awareness, breath control, and mindful movement, yoga is not particularly special.

I'd just like to add one thing with regards to "perfect posture" - that the more upright and better balanced we are, the more easily and quickly we are able to rotate around our central axis and move quickly in any direction without preparation. So ideal posture increases our potential movement options, as I think the original poster may have already mentioned.
Simon Thakur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 12:27 PM   #42
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,591
Thanks: 1,955
Thanked 1,468 Times in 642 Posts
Default

Quote:
I am referring to all sorts of strange, unaware attempts to lift arms.
[QUOTE]I think these bodies are crying for motion.[/QUOTE
You could well be right. But how do we know?
Should we assume that our intervention to teach something "better" is indeed - better?

That is why I like my yoga teacher who asks: "How does it feel if you straighten so-and-so out a bit more? Does your so-and-so like that?" or "Explore your range gently - breathe and feel what happens when you play with your limits." This leaves the locus of control with the participant - not with an abstract standard of perfect.

PS: I do not mean to imply anyone here is a drill sergeant in yoga.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
TexasOrtho (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 02:59 PM   #43
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Hi Bas,

Quote:
This leaves the locus of control with the participant - not with an abstract standard of perfect.
This is what I have found missing from the Iyengar classes and workshops I have experienced and from what I have read of Mr Iyengar as well.

Iyengar's recent books are very prescriptive in terms of which pose leads to which benefit. I think the whole community is fooling themselves into thinking that they understand the cause and effect of posture.

I would say that Iyengar's questions "can" lead to a strongly increased interoceptive sense. However, my experience has been that there is too much authority placed on Iyengar's knowledge. He has great explanations but I think they need to start being phrased as questions and become less specific in what the experiential result will be.

Explanations like Rod used like "the calm in the storm" (which I like very much Rod) lead people back to making their own decisions. I heard Richard Freeman (a prominent Yoga Teacher) say once. "The job of the Yoga Teacher is to consistently step off of the pedestal his students put him on". I take that to mean keep redirecting the Locus of Control back to the student.

Nathan, I can hear a little of my older Yoga descriptions in what you are saying. The reasons I have abandoned them are for exactly the same reasons that Cole is saying. If Yoga is special it is because it is a way of being that has nothing to do with an asana class. Great Yoga can happen while dancing, running, reading or even talking with loved ones. It is a way of tuning into the relationship of things and our part in it.

Hopefully this happens when we practice some asanas
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to byronselorme For This Useful Post:
Bas Asselbergs (10-07-2012)
Old 10-07-2012, 05:50 PM   #44
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Guys I really do agree with what you are saying. I believe I am putting it out in a different way.

Byron,
Quote:
If Yoga is special it is because it is a way of being that has nothing to do with an asana class.
This is do not agree with just yet. I feel the way one does an asana IS EXACTLY one's way of being. If you raise your arms and they are just kinda hanging there, not much activity going through them but you just can't be bothered to raise em up any more....OR you militaristically force your arms rigid straight.... OR you examine and correct/explore what works and what doesn't....OR you just can't be bothered lifting your arms... Each one of these approaches are an expression of that individual I.E. Their way of being. The performance of asanas, or the way you jog, practice dance, walk across a slack line ARE YOU.

I am not claiming yoga is special. I am suggesting that the mindset in entering in any activity and the purpose for doing it is where the gold lies. I just happen to get my rocks of exploring movement.

nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 07:19 PM   #45
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zendogg View Post
This is do not agree with just yet. I feel the way one does an asana IS EXACTLY one's way of being. If you raise your arms and they are just kinda hanging there, not much activity going through them but you just can't be bothered to raise em up any more....OR you militaristically force your arms rigid straight.... OR you examine and correct/explore what works and what doesn't....OR you just can't be bothered lifting your arms... Each one of these approaches are an expression of that individual I.E. Their way of being. The performance of asanas, or the way you jog, practice dance, walk across a slack line ARE YOU.

I am not claiming yoga is special. I am suggesting that the mindset in entering in any activity and the purpose for doing it is where the gold lies. I just happen to get my rocks of exploring movement.

nathan
Perhaps I am missing the explanation of my point, because I think you do get the gist of what I am saying.

Let me try explaining slightly differently. I am talking about the way of being, the way of participating. Asana can have this as a part of the practice of it, but it also can be missing from asana. Likewise weight lifting can have this mindset but it also can be missing.

There is nothing particularly special about the asana, except that it is a novel movement that people can use as a gateway for forming new opinions about the experience of movement.

We could have an interesting conversation about this over coffee. What is the experience of your arm reaching for the cup?
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 07:23 PM   #46
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Quote:
I feel the way one does an asana IS EXACTLY one's way of being
I think the problem with this is that you also have to define the context.

This is one's way of being when being observed by a teacher who may be held in high esteem (at least to the participant) and in front of other participants who may already get it.

This person may move completely differently when not being observed or when not in a Yoga class. The culture of a Yoga class can be quite strong in and of itself.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 08:31 PM   #47
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Quote:
I think the problem with this is that you also have to define the context.

This is one's way of being when being observed by a teacher who may be held in high esteem (at least to the participant) and in front of other participants who may already get it.

This person may move completely differently when not being observed or when not in a Yoga class. The culture of a Yoga class can be quite strong in and of itself.
You are who you are in what ever context you're in. How does one respond to yoga class culture? Are they aware of its impact on their movement choices? If they find the authority (earned or not) of the teacher is enough to make them move incompletely or aberrantly or aggressively I am willing to bet there are other situations that impel them to do the same. Is this not part of the biospychoSOCIAL aspect of therapy? Do you see yoga as biomechanical only or as a mirror of the entire self in action?

I may have a different perspective on yoga classes than you in that I think it is unfortunate that classes are where many if not most people feel the yoga experience begins and ends. I see class as just that, class. I don't see it as workout-make me sweat time. I wish that people interested in their own improvement would take the lessons from class and practice them on their own.

Feldenkrais, yoga, ballet, running, kettle bells, svaroopa yoga, crossfit, pilates, each one has its strengths and weaknesses. I think it depends on what your purpose is in taking one up and the state of affairs within the person taking it up. I personally think that moving slowly into postures affords much more opportunity to examine movement patterns than kettle bells or running does. Kettle bells much more in explosive strength than yoga. Running challenges the cardiovascular system in a different way than Feldenkrais. Purpose and population.
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 08:46 PM   #48
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Quote:
I think the problem with this is that you also have to define the context.

This is one's way of being when being observed by a teacher who may be held in high esteem (at least to the participant) and in front of other participants who may already get it.

This person may move completely differently when not being observed or when not in a Yoga class. The culture of a Yoga class can be quite strong in and of itself.
You are who you are in what ever context you're in. How does one respond to yoga class culture? Are they aware of its impact on their movement choices? If they find the authority (earned or not) of the teacher is enough to make them move incompletely or aberrantly or aggressively I am willing to bet there are other situations that impel them to do the same. Is this not part of the biospychoSOCIAL aspect of therapy? Do you see yoga as biomechanical only or as a mirror of the entire self in action?

I may have a different perspective on yoga classes than you in that I think it is unfortunate that classes are where many if not most people feel the yoga experience begins and ends. I see class as just that, class. I don't see it as workout-make me sweat time. I wish that people interested in their own improvement would take the lessons from class and practice them on their own rather than rely on the instructor. I have disagreed with my instructor before. Many more things since I have begun reading here. But you say that it is just novel movement. It may be. But does that mean that I tell my students that it is ok to never lift their arms over there heads again as long as they are exploring new, novel things below 90 degrees? Do you not think that deeply exploring the subtly of movement possibilities in yoga poses causes a response in the nervous system and musculature that expresses itself in how one carries their frame, aka posture?


Feldenkrais, yoga, ballet, running, kettle bells, svaroopa yoga, crossfit, pilates, each one has its strengths and weaknesses. I think it depends on what your purpose is in taking one up and the state of affairs within the person taking it up. I personally think that moving slowly into postures affords much more opportunity to examine movement patterns than kettle bells or running does. Kettle bells much more in explosive strength than yoga. Running challenges the cardiovascular system in a different way than Feldenkrais. Purpose and population.

Nathan
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #49
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 1,278
Thanked 434 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Quote:
You are who you are in what ever context you're in. How does one respond to yoga class culture? Are they aware of its impact on their movement choices? If they find the authority (earned or not) of the teacher is enough to make them move incompletely or aberrantly or aggressively I am willing to bet there are other situations that impel them to do the same. Is this not part of the biospychoSOCIAL aspect of therapy?
I think the distinction I am making is in regards to the participant vs the teacher who is observing the participant. The arguments I am making are from the standpoint of the teacher. What am I observing, how do I know what this means. From the standpoint of the participant I agree with you.

I am still not sure how/if I would like to couch Yoga in terms of therapy.

Quote:
Do you see yoga as biomechanical only or as a mirror of the entire self in action?
I think this must be a leading question, but of course I don't see it as biomechanical only.


Quote:
I may have a different perspective on yoga classes than you in that I think it is unfortunate that classes are where many if not most people feel the yoga experience begins and ends.
No I think we have the same perspective here and that was my main point, in fact I think that might be my whole point that we have been discussing.

Quote:
But you say that it is just novel movement. It may be. But does that mean that I tell my students that it is ok to never lift their arms over there heads again as long as they are exploring new, novel things below 90 degrees? Do you not think that deeply exploring the subtly of movement possibilities in yoga poses causes a response in the nervous system and musculature that expresses itself in how one carries their frame, aka posture?
I impose constraints on classes all the time. I think novel movements are actually a big part of what makes asana useful, personally. Here is a position, probably one you would not normally go into, and lets feel around and see what we notice. I will ask them to use the constraints to help focus the process of discovery. i.e let's see what this feels like if we do it without bending the knees, if I see someone bend their knees I will call attention to it and ask if they realized it had happened.

I am little confused about what you mean by "never lift their arms over their heads". My main purpose of teaching Yoga or movement is to give people more options, to find those options and connect to what that means when they integrate that into the rest of it all.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 10:34 PM   #50
zendogg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks: 171
Thanked 225 Times in 82 Posts
Default

Quote:
I impose constraints on classes all the time. I think novel movements are actually a big part of what makes asana useful, personally. Here is a position, probably one you would not normally go into, and lets feel around and see what we notice. I will ask them to use the constraints to help focus the process of discovery. i.e let's see what this feels like if we do it without bending the knees, if I see someone bend their knees I will call attention to it and ask if they realized it had happened.

I am little confused about what you mean by "never lift their arms over their heads". My main purpose of teaching Yoga or movement is to give people more options, to find those options and connect to what that means when they integrate that into the rest of it all.
completely on the same page now.

Elsewhere:
In the "never lift the arms over their heads" quote I am digging at how I suspect (need input from others) that novel is one thing but exploration is another. Perhaps it is context and/or semantics thing. I started this thread with confusion about pain, posture, the myths, the therapies and reasons for results. So in keeping with that my question is: Someone is struggling with a bit of shoulder pain, enough that they came to see one of us and we chose to suggest they do some novel movements with the arm that they aren't used to doing.

Now if I tell them to move their arm in such a way that I think it either biomechanically makes better sense or perhaps it appropriately stimulates circulation etc., in the troubled nerves, THEN it means I believe that that is what I am affecting! OR I could just say do something new with your arm to give it a chance to "oil" itself with this exploration. If I direct them biomechanically then there is an assumption that that direction has therapeutic value. If I leave them up to their own exploration and they decide to sort of meagerly move their arm around how is that going to help? Hopefully I am clear. Is it appropriate for me to then say to that person doing merger movements, "how about trying more range? try moving all the way across your body and see how that feels?" Now I have directed them again. Their novel wasn't novel enough for me. So I ask you at what point should a Yoga instructor decide for his own practice and for that of others where the end of exploration would be? Should it end at what feels good only? Well what if a change in force application allows that arm to kinematically connect better with the scap/torso which then allows for more movement of an appropriate manner?
I think I have heard you call that novel movement, maybe I don't have the right definition of that term yet. If there is a better way to move is that still novel? I know some of you will cringe at the word better, but I don't know how to get around using.
Let me digress just to cut off objections. I am not suggesting that I KNOW how someone should move. Nor am I saying that the decision to move in a way that I have judged to be meager is inappropriate for where they are at. But what if they have much more that they aren't aware of. What if they had never known that they could do a particular motion or combo of motions? Where do the students habits and fears end and the teachers wisdom begin? How can we deign to call it wisdom without conceding that the instruction implies "better"?
I asked the question in an earlier post if you would feel ok walking with one of your legs at 45 degrees out to the side just because it was novel. If you say yes, I'd really like to know how that turns out after 3 weeks. If you say no then the implication is that there is a better way not just a novel way.


Nathan

Last edited by zendogg; 10-07-2012 at 10:46 PM.
zendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
??? Posture Taping and Posture Brace jonmessageboard Skepticism and Critical Thinking 1 07-02-2012 03:03 PM
CT Posture - again amacs General Discussion 1 14-10-2010 12:28 PM
CT Posture posture amacs The Performance Lab 0 05-01-2010 11:30 PM
NDS Team Member Biography Russell Foley I Robot I Robot 0 11-09-2009 09:02 AM
Interesting work/Interesting team Jon Newman Neuro? Logical! 0 14-06-2007 05:27 AM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014