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Old 04-06-2004, 02:41 AM   #1
Diane
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Default "Endo"soma, "Exo"soma and Core

Hi SS-ers,
I've been turning over this idea in my mind all day, since I reviewed the layers of muscular anatomy over the ribcage/back. Let me say first, I'm using the word "core" to mean strictly non voluntary viscera.

I'm thinking the lack of movement in the somatically defined reflex patterns show up first in the "endosoma" (my own word that I'm coining, to refer to paraspinals and other ribcage or inner muscles). Later on down the road, usually, when someone is in their 40s, 50s, 60s, the joints/bones (also part of the endosoma, buried within it) finally succumb (osteoporosis, 'phytes, 'itis and OA..)

The outer muscles (the non-snake muscles) the appendicular add-ons, like traps and lats and outer abs, that cover up the other ones but primarily are anchorage for shoulder or pelvic girdle movement, and any other muscles that are limb muscles, are the "exosoma", attached to the endosoma but not cut from exactly the same cloth, not embryologically or neurologically or functionally.

Have you ever noticed people who seem stretchy and mobile in their outer layer or "exosoma" (skin and outer muscles) do tons of yoga some of them, go for deep tissue work, rolfing etc, seem to not mind pain from deep work... They complain of tension, on palpation they feel like their actual periosteum is tight, like it's made of wires, they have the ropes in their backs, and they have lots of wandering aches and pains? I've always used positional release and nerve glide ex's to get those deep bits relaxed, but now I'm thinking somatics exercises would be the way to go... They palpate as if their "endosoma" and their "exosoma" are operating with completely different agendas in the same body.. Rolf, do you know anything about this? There must be theories from Norway tying in psychological aspects...

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Old 04-06-2004, 01:23 PM   #2
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Diane,

I think that you are right.

In my view we can act on deepness, only, through/by the others layers?
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Old 04-06-2004, 03:23 PM   #3
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In the past years, I have been in search for some strategies to cause a change from inside out. Reaching inner self from an outside in way seemed very limited in its effect.
I started seeing that Somatics was one solution to my quest about a year ago. And the effects of the somatics are beyond physicals.

In Japan, a physician named Keizo Hashimoto, MD developed something very similar to Somatics about 70-80 years ago. He called it "Sotai (Movement for pleasure in Japanese)." I have found that for past few months. As far as I learned about it so far, I don't see much differences from Somatics.
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:00 PM   #4
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Bernard, I can't think of any other way "in" except
1. through other layers, somehow (ouch)
2. through the person's mind and efforts (eg: somatics, nerve glides etc.) (much less painful)
3. through positional release, (also not painful to apply) which can induce relaxation in the deep bits, but in a non-sensate SMA person, the effects on deeper layers don't last...

Takao, is that the same Hashimoto as in "Hashimoto's thyroiditis"?
This is really interesting news. Maybe Somatics and Sotai could be compared and contrasted (by somebody like you maybe!) and written up here.

People were busy all over the world, way back in the early part of the 20thC.... it was sure a time of flowering for the 'human being physical'.
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Old 06-06-2004, 10:11 PM   #5
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Hi Diane,

I guess what you are saying is similar to the workshop I did last year. Combining the function of the Cranial Nerves with Breathing, the transversus and the Pelvic Floor.

One of the things I learned from teaching that workshop is that the core is nothing else but the Central Nervous System, the subconscious controlled part of the body. Which makes sense when you start to understand the Stress Response.

What follows is the conscious controlled part of the body, which is the Peripheral Nervous System.

However, for treatment, at this moment it is easier to engage the Peripheral Nervous System than to engage the Central Nervous System.

But who knows what we will be doing in 10 years ??

Is that similar as what you are thinking?

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Old 06-06-2004, 10:13 PM   #6
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Just a little add-on:

Which makes it even more important to work with organic, natural movement patterns!

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Old 06-06-2004, 11:40 PM   #7
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Hi Servaas,
Great that you have time now to come and discuss here.

Quote:
I guess what you are saying is similar to the workshop I did last year. Combining the function of the Cranial Nerves with Breathing, the transversus and the Pelvic Floor.
Actually, no.. my ideas were neurologic/anatomical/embryological more than neurologic/functional... more about that in just a minute. Just want to say here, to everybody, that your Cranial nerve/breathing/core workshop was terrific, and I hope that eventually everyone can learn this material whether first or third person! (First person is good!)

Quote:
One of the things I learned from teaching that workshop is that the core is nothing else but the Central Nervous System, the subconscious controlled part of the body. Which makes sense when you start to understand the Stress Response.

What follows is the conscious controlled part of the body, which is the Peripheral Nervous System.
Above, when I differentiated between the idea of 'endo' vs. 'exo'somas, I was tracking on the functional access aspects we as humans have to our axial musculature vs. our appendicular musculature.

To me, somatics/mobilizing awareness as taught by you (even though I know this wasn't your conscious intent, it is my own interpretation) ...is all about enhancing awareness of and access to our sorely neglected (in this culture) axial musculature. The lats and traps are actually functionally parts of the appendicular musculature, and completely cover the axial musculature (paraspinals).

Paraspinals are different. They come from a different kind of earlier mesoderm. They have less innervation (smaller ratio of motor neurons to motor units). The only way to get to them is through the 'exo' soma, because they are buried ribcage muscles. They are striated yet have to do with breathing. Carefully worked out evolutionary trick: Breathe while moving a ribcage through space. Through a medium in undulatory motion. Requires either gills or good timing. (Think fish. Think snake.)

Quote:
However, for treatment, at this moment it is easier to engage the Peripheral Nervous System than to engage the Central Nervous System.

But who knows what we will be doing in 10 years ??

Is that similar as what you are thinking?
I agree that it is easier to engage the PNS, yet every book I've ever read says as a disclaimer that the NS is all one and is separated into two as a simplification for study. We can get our hands on the whole NS. It is the outside of the body. Wherever you put your hands you are 'in effect' touching the outside of the brain (reflexively) because skin and brain are both ectoderm.

The 'processer' CNS is 'inside' the head and spinal cord, mostly inaccessible (unless you believe that CST directly affects the CSF/CNS.) (I'm more a neuromatrix person at this time.. believing that afferent input through skin can do all that via its effects on the CNS..)

Bearing in mind that the axial muscles are much more difficult to access consciously that the appendicular ones, and from a neuromatrix perspective, I think somatics/MA works this way:

1. Maintain a placeboic environment wherein the patient feels him/herself to be the exact center of 100% of your attention. (For more about this read everything including all the links at http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/322/7290/865 ) (Thank you Ian)

2. Help patient to focus correctly on task with very specific verbal input. Arrange verbal input to access positive output mechanisms from the action neuromatrix. (Take great care with language to not stimulate patient's cingulate gyrus or amygdala, so that they won't be sidetracked by confusion/defensive reaction and can trust you, and put more hard drive into positive accomplishment of task at hand.)

3. Assist that focus with correct vector and hand placement to assist/augment afferent input. (Take advantage of all the work that was done in the past by trial and error to get the 'right' mix of perceptual/ proprioceptive input.)

4. Be patient. Learn the tricks. There is an entire set, already neatly packaged. Practice them.

5. Learn that it is possible to 'crank up your own hard drive' in your own action neuromatrix, to consciously access this layer of somatic function in your own body, so that your conviction can transmit positively to overcome doubts in the patient's mind.

In 10 years I think we'll be doing the same stuff we do now, but it will be framed in a much more logical way supported by greatly updated and streamlined theory.

Quote:
Just a little add-on:

Which makes it even more important to work with organic, natural movement patterns!
Couldn't agree with you more!
Cheers,
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Old 07-06-2004, 06:25 PM   #8
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Hi, me again,
Just popped in to say that I'm digging deep into the differences between epaxial and hypaxial derived musculature, looking for evidence of differences in function. Earlier posts on this were from the top of my head, based on stuff I remembered from long ago. I want to clarify the innervation patterns and post details. There's a huge amount of stuff to wade through, so this will take me several days, even weeks.
Thanks.
Diane
PS: Hi Greg (Soma)! Welcome to the forum..
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:15 PM   #9
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Hi Diane,

Lots of good stuff!

In the previous post you mention about conscious awareness:

"It is located in the prefrontals."

Does that meant here is no consciousness in other parts of the brain ? Or other parts of the body ?

I am interested to learn more!

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Old 09-06-2004, 02:12 AM   #10
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Back to muscles for a minute, I've been looking up derivations and what differentiates into what embryologically and what turns into what evolutionarily. This is fascinating stuff! (Well, fascinating if you can love minutia like I do sometimes...)

I remembered correctly that the epaxial stuff turns into paraspinals. They are all innervated by the dorsal rami of the spinal nerves. They all live beneath the thoracolumbar fascia (no wonder they are so hard to "massage"..) They do all come from the undulatory motion muscles as in fish, etc... in mammals they change a bit but remain in a class of their own... "axial."

I found out something that I didn't know, that traps are "branchiomeric" class muscles. I will look up something about that to post. But for now, it means that they are way different in origin, style and function than the paraspinals. Totally different personalities, temperments.

Great pictures of all the paraspinal interweavings in Gray's and in Travell's. Must try to scan them to send in. Have never tried to use this scanner..wish me luck!
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Old 09-06-2004, 04:04 AM   #11
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Hi Diane,

Intersting stuff. I'd love to hear more.

When talking about the Trapezius, is it possible to make the differentiation which Trapezius we are referring to ? Upper, middle, lower (because of their different innervations).

Thanks! Looking forward to more Dianevolutionaly!

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Old 09-06-2004, 03:58 PM   #12
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Hi there, still digging. Found out that all "branchiomeric" means, is originating from somatic muscle precursors (somitomeres), are innervated
by cranial nerves. (I knew that, just hadn't heard the term "branchiomeric"... )

Lats are definitely not "axially" derived muscles, they are "appendicularly" derived, meaning they come along much later in evolution and in the embyo, from a different cell line. In fact, appendicular cell lines divide into dorsal and ventral quite soon, with different qualities, and give rise to the appropriate placement of the muscles.

Axial muscles come straight out of the sclerotomes along with the actual vertebrae it seems. Very early. On fish, the epaxial (back/dorsal) muscles are separated from the hypaxial (front/ventral) muscles by the "horizontal septum." Remember that septum when you eat a cross-section of salmon? The little spine is in the middle where the lines dividing the salmon steak that separate the chunks of meat, meet. In fish, their epaxial muscle mass is only slightly smaller relative to the hypaxial mass. Their innervation to their little fins and the muscles that work the fins, are small and stay on the front/ventral side of the fish.

On "tetropod" landlubbers (except snakes), that horizontal septum has become the thoracolumbar fascia, and a bunch of new muscles with hypaxial innervation have grown over it to attach themselves to the spinous processes. It's as if fronts grew so big that they needed to swing back to get anchorage from the spine. The "front" muscles have grown over top of the "back" muscles!

All the limbs and all their contents are classified as hypaxial/front/ventral. Limbs are later in evolution. The front of the body is the 'growing edge' evolutionarily speaking..the body plan invested heavily in limbs, and they certainly did become "heavier" compared to fish fins from whence they derived.

That's exactly what happened as we turned into "tetrapods" ... We enclosed our axial musculature in behind limb musculature that had to have a way to attach, so it figured out how to attach itself posteriorly to permit leverage on the spinous processes. Axial musculature really didn't keep pace, it stayed relatively smaller and more "primitive." Eg: cows don't have to undulate their tail to move forward, as fish do; they can swish it randomly as they want to, and the legs move from a different part of the brain. They "walk" on legs attached all the way back to their spines and on the front to their sternums. The rear legs have different strategies; the psoas has to "dive back", right into the body, to gain anterior attachment to the spine via Psoas. Cows don't undulate as they walk, they sort of plod along.

As if that wasn't a great trick all by itself, THEN we HUMANS got up on our hind legs! The horizontal septum is now vertical! Now all this stuff on the front of the body is slanting downward at an angle instead of straight down at a ninety degree angle. Our axial muscles have to hold us and all this..stuff, up all day when all they really want to do in life is lie horizontal and bend and twist. So to wake them up that's exactly what we have to do.

Enter Somatics!

About trapezius: Here's what Travell says:
Quote:
Motor innervation of the trapezius is supplied by the spinal portion of the accessory (spinal acessory) nerve (cranial nerve XI). The trapezius portion of the motor nerve arises within the spinal canal from ventral roots, usually of the first five cervical segments; it ascends through the foramen magnum and exits the skull via the jugular foramen to supply, and sometimes to penetrate, the SCM muscle. The nerve then joins a plexus deep to the trapezius.
The plexus is joined by fibers (primarily sensory) from spinal nerves C2,3, and 4; together they supply both the motor and sensory innervation to the trapezius muscle.
Eleven of 13 patients with radical neck dissections for cancer that included sacrifice of both the accessory nerve and the cervical plexus presented electromyographic evidence (EMG) evidence of variable partial denervation of the trapezius muscle. This suggests that there is a supplemental (apparently thoracic) motor supply to all three parts of the trapezius muscle in many individuals.
She doesn't mention if the supplemental supply from the thoracics to trapezius in these 11 out of 13 people was from the dorsal ramus or from the ventral ramus. Trapezius is innervated from ventral rami, making it different from axial (but still "old" evolutionarily.. some of the branchiomeric muscles derive from primitive "gill" structures in the embryo, called brachial arches, and others consolidate out of the same somitomeres that give rise to scalp muscles and facial muscles..) Still, it could mean that in most people (almost 85% from her study, which is just one study we must realize, all of whom developed serious cancer, so maybe their cell signalling systems were less robust) there might be some crosstalk between axial muscles and trapezius muscles. Just hope if there's innervation crosstalk, it doesn't suggest that deep neck cancer is more likely. That would be a growing edge that no one needs.

References: Travell & Simons Myofascial Pain and Dysfunction second ed. vol 1 p 283
Links: http://members.fortunecity.com/ace42457/SkelMusc.htm
http://www.uta.edu/biology/campbell/cva/comparat.htm
There are some other good links but they are the annoying page stretcher type, so I haven't included them.
Cheers,
Diane
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Old 10-06-2004, 09:39 PM   #13
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This is a test as I have been asking Mr Computer Bernard to help me with some technical difficulties ....
Diane I will take a totally functional line on this and a few quick thoughts. I keep on referring to Nathans book as I think this is the essence of most problems in our society .......The deepest spinal muscles -- the felt sense of numbness and hardness in them may I feel be at some primitive level be our most basic form of stress/defence pattern ......Non mainstream approaches include bioenergetics (lowens work) and the unwinding processes in the hypnotic approaches of 'cst' may elicit changes here.
There are some interesting ideas in Ruthy Allons book relating to the dervishes and their dances who felt that the spirit flowed through the central axis of the body .....maybe they were onto something! Brief attempts at meditation and deep relaxation lying on the floor convinces me that the deepest defences are in the deepest muscles and as Nathan suggests it may need 'Father' hypnotist (chiro/grade 5 person) or perhaps mother Hypnotist (CST/Rosen method etc etc ) to access these barriers ?
Without any assistance it is possible to feel change in these areas with a very focussed stance ie Alexander posture or a standing exercise like chi kung?
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:15 AM   #14
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Hi Ian,
Just a quick note.. off to another workshop tonight. Glad you got your computer hooked up!

Quote:
The deepest spinal muscles -- the felt sense of numbness and hardness in them may I feel be at some primitive level be our most basic form of stress/defence pattern
I agree. I think Hanna might too..had he had more time in his life to think about it..

Quote:
Non mainstream approaches include bioenergetics (lowens work) and the unwinding processes in the hypnotic approaches of 'cst' may elicit changes here.
There are some interesting ideas in Ruthy Allons book relating to the dervishes and their dances who felt that the spirit flowed through the central axis of the body .....maybe they were onto something! Brief attempts at meditation and deep relaxation lying on the floor convinces me that the deepest defences are in the deepest muscles
Another way is likely this one:
http://www.continuummovement.com/cm-articles.htm

Quote:
as Nathan suggests it may need 'Father' hypnotist (chiro/grade 5 person) or perhaps mother Hypnotist (CST/Rosen method etc etc ) to access these barriers ?
I don't know. Yikes to grade 5's!

I think somatics can take care of these deep muscles, easily and in a straightforward physical way, without a lot of accompanying deep analysis of a psychologic sort.. Hanna said it (SMA) was all about accumulated stress. I guess deep defences and accumulated stress can easily overlap as conceptual frames...

Quote:
Without any assistance it is possible to feel change in these areas with a very focussed stance ie Alexander posture or a standing exercise like chi kung?
I don't know. Possibly..

All I 'know' kinesthetically is from my own first person experience with exercise as a feedback mechanism.. years ago I did yoga, was flexible all over, great rib excursion. Later, about 10 years ago, I did belly dance, had no problem learning to move my ribcage all over the place, fold it like an accordian in the back, sides, all round, etc, etc. Stopped for many years.

These days, I was quite immobile..it had just "snuck up" on me.. no real injury or anything, just lack of regular exercise. Tried belly dance again.. just couldn't get the ribs to move on each other, felt like they were all welded to each other. So the idea of sensory motor amnesia makes sense to me..

Right away, after doing the somatics for just a few days, the ribs were able to easily move all over the place again, with good excursion all round again. Lots of other little improvements.. GERD had been starting to bother me some.. it's gone. Tachycardia just before falling asleep, haven't noticed that for a couple weeks. An annoying sense of fullness in my throat, not there any more. Only difference, learning and practicing somatic exercises. Based on this regained freedom to breathe and move ribs, the deep structures feathering out over the posterior ribcage/spine becoming freed is the only thing that really makes sense to me. Upon checking lats, it turns out they are embedded into the ribcage too, so it makes sense that learning to "consciously lengthen" lats would kick up activity and lengthening capacity of the epaxials and other trunk/rib muscles.

I can't help but connect 'what I know' (anatomically/embryologically/etc.) with 'what I know' (somatically/kinesthetically.) This ribcage of mine became mobile and under my conscious control again quite a different sensation from the sense of being squeezed by an internal corset all the time!
Cheers,
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Old 11-06-2004, 05:15 AM   #15
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Wow Diane,

It sounds like you are having a great time! The way I like to believe your discussion is more from a somatic point of view, a zooming out point of view. This is where the nervous system has a control mechanism that can contract and release.

It is not just the muscles that are tense, tight or are holding. It is the whole system. This affects every cell in your body.

It is not just certain muscles that are tense, tight or that are holding: it is the muscle tone throughout the whole body that is affected. And when I talk about muscle tone, I understand it more from a somatic viewpoint, being that every cell with its function is tense, tight or holding. To make it more complicated: this also refers to the processes of life that are not visible by the eye or a photo. Not just events like muscle tone, blood pressure, breathing, heart rate, posture. But also processes like behaviour, emotions, thoughts, creativity, love, anger, frustration, energy, attraction etc..

Of course, we can reverse the feedback loop from the body back towards these processes and of course do all these processes have a profound (positive or negative) effect on the body.

That is what makes it somatic.

Continuum, based on the works of Emily Conrad D'aoud, another somatic discipline, (as far as I understand it) works with small micro-movement. And can be very succesful. It is more like Feldenkrais then anything we do (based on Hanna Somatic Education (HSE) or Mobilizing Awareness(MA)).

Ian mentioned the Rosen Method: I had the pleasure to meet up with Marion Rosen herself and see her in action a few weeks ago. It was very interesting and the main concept for me that stood out was the INTENT that you as a practitioner must have when you start touching somebody.

However, I always miss a philosphy that refers to the event that Hanna named 'Sensory Motor Amnesia'. Personally I like the term 'Somatic Amnesia' better, because it also includes the functional processes of behavior. HSE and MA are , as far as I have experienced, the only ones that have the primary intent to turn down the stress response.

So the information that Diane tells us is very interesting and is totally complementary to further our understanding within this new field of body work and rehabilitation.

That is it for now. I am going to hop on my bicycle and pedal up and down the hills of Napa Valley, using my somatically aware muscles. I am working on some interesting stuff about the somatic effects of cycling on the body and how people can make their bike rides more effortless. For recreatinoal riders as well as the top riders who are riding the French Alps!

By the way, Bernard, how far are you from the Alps??

Soon more!

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Old 20-06-2004, 06:13 AM   #16
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This PDF is quite good in my opinion; it discusses embryologic formation of various muscle types fairly clearly. I think it is important to understand where muscles come from both in an embryo, and evolutionary origins..
http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/0207/ft905.pdf

Some points I think are important:

1.
Quote:
"The formation of the dermomyotome requires signals from the ectoderm and is a result of the dorsoventral patterning of the somite."
Rough translation: The body wall or limb muscles (mesoderm) are guided into existance by brain (ectoderm), which understands posterior vs anterior. In other words, nervous tissue is there from the beginning, unfolding just ahead of the rest of the "material" of the body, guiding stem cells and precursor tissue to their proper place.

2.
Quote:
"In addition to the dorsoventral compartmentalization of the somite resulting in the formation of dermomyotome and sclerotome, mediolateral compartments are formed in the somite. This results in a patterning of the dermomyotome of which the medial part gives rise to epaxial muscle and dermis of the back, whereas the lateral part yields hypaxial muscle." (emphasis mine)
Somite= building block of embyonic tissue.
What's important to take away is that the muscles destined to become true back muscles (epaxial, innervated by the dorsal rami of the spinal nerves) differentiate out very early from the rest, which are innervated by the ventral rami. A different place in the brain is running them. (So I think there are implications here for somatics. Somatics seems to be able to wake these ones up again more easily than most forms of exercise.)

3.
Quote:
"Epaxial myogenesis requires signals from the axial structures. After ablation of both the neural tube and notochord, epaxial muscle does not develop. Signals from notochord and neural tube are required to turn on and maintain MyoD expression in the epaxial myotome of avian embryos in vivo and in vitro."
Translation: Epaxial muscle really needs neural stimulation to even be able to form. What does this mean? Could it imply that these muscles are "special needs" muscles that require more heavy input than what we typically provide to them, in our body-repressed cultures, to stay "on-line"...?

4.
Quote:
"To date it is suggested that signals from the axial structures do not influence hypaxial myogenesis. Stole et al..have been able to show that the expression of Fgf8 even in the hypaxial myotome depends on Shh produced by the axial structures meaning that there does exist an influence of notochord and neural tube on muscle cell development in the hypaxial domain."
Of course, but apparently more like "ordinary" children are dependent on their parents as opposed to the heavier dependencies of the "special needs" children... Not quite the same degree of organizing necessary? Lateral structures that give rise to hypaxial musclulature is by definition further "away" from the midline, and therefore the neural structures. The embryo is doing its best to grow nerves out and send out neural crest cells to help guide tissue way out in the "hinterland" of the body.. at this stage the embryo is just starting to curl around from a flat disc into a tube. The hypaxial (more lateral) structures are 'further away' from the midline streak/ notochord guiding signal stations.

My overall impression is the dorsal muscles are harder to get going and come on line sooner, both evolutionarily and embryologically. The inner layers of body wall, ditto. The outer layers of body wall are built later, have to do with limbs, and are 'differently' innervated (greater receptive fields perhaps) because by then there is more brain to deal with them.

5.
Quote:
"All anatomic muscles of adult vertebrates have their origins in several waves of muscle fiber formation as development proceeds."
This paper was written about chick embryos, so not everything in it translates to human muscle. Gray's Anatomy has a fabulous section on comparative development of human vs. other creature muscle development. I'm still looking at that.

More to come,
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Old 20-06-2004, 05:28 PM   #17
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Hi Diane,

Interesting stuff, however, can anybody helpme because I couldn't see the article open up within the pDF file ?

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Old 20-06-2004, 06:18 PM   #18
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Servaas,

I made a copy of it and I'll put on the site tomorow.
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Old 20-06-2004, 06:22 PM   #19
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done =>

http://somasimple.com/pdf_files/ft905.pdf
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Old 20-06-2004, 06:49 PM   #20
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Bernard, this link still doesn't open up straight onto a window.. is there a will and a way?
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Old 20-06-2004, 09:36 PM   #21
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Hi Bernard,

I just printed the article. Seems to work now.

Many thanks!

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Old 21-06-2004, 06:37 AM   #22
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Diane,

Some servers have a very limited bandwidth and do not let use it, in an intensive usage. the loading is then vanishing for a while!

Caring => let me know the failing link. I'll load the file on our server where the bandwith is allowed to 40Go/months (we are actually around 0.4 Go). :mrgreen:

The file in now on Somasimple (link given to Servaas).
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Old 22-06-2004, 03:31 PM   #23
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http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/nvbrain.htm

This site is a really good read. There are lots of gaps for me, but I like the evolutionary comparisons between the different sorts of "brains" we still (presumably) carry around in our human heads.

I think from a PT view it would be interesting to determine/deduce embryologically what musculature that goes with each of the "brains" ...that's sort of what I already started trying to do in this thread. So far, pages and pages and pages... much too much for a single post. When my opus is done I'll ask Bernard to put it on the Sounds of Silence.
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Old 22-06-2004, 03:36 PM   #24
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Diane,

You're doing a magnificent work for all of us!
I took a look to this site with your previous post. It is great and will help us certainly to understand the crossing of brains and muscles.
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Old 13-07-2004, 01:18 PM   #25
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http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.math.2004.05.003

Copyright © 2004 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

Masterclass

Unravelling the complexity of muscle impairment in chronic neck pain

D. Falla

Division of Physiotherapy, The University of Queensland, Brisbane QLD 4072, Australia

Received 4 May 2004; accepted 8 May 2004. Available online 7 July 2004.

Abstract
Exercise interventions are deemed essential for the effective management of patients with neck pain. However, there has been a lack of consensus on optimal exercise prescription, which has resulted from a paucity of studies to quantify the precise nature of muscle impairment, in people with neck pain. This masterclass will present recent research from our laboratory, which has utilized surface electromyography to investigate cervical flexor muscle impairment in patients with chronic neck pain. This research has identified deficits in the motor control of the deep and superficial cervical flexor muscles in people with chronic neck pain, characterized by a delay in onset of neck muscle contraction associated with movement of the upper limb. In addition, people with neck pain demonstrate an altered pattern of muscle activation, which is characterized by reduced deep cervical flexor muscle activity during a low load cognitive task and increased activity of the superficial cervical flexor muscles during both cognitive tasks and functional activities. The results have demonstrated the complex, multifaceted nature of cervical muscle impairment, which exists in people with a history of neck pain. In turn, this has considerable implications for the rehabilitation of muscle function in people with neck pain disorders.
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Old 13-07-2004, 01:22 PM   #26
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http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.math.2004.03.002

Copyright © 2004 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

Original article

Impaired trunk muscle function in sub-acute neck pain: etiologic in the subsequent development of low back pain?

G.L.G. Lorimer Moseley

a Division of Physiotherapy, The University of Queensland, Australia
b Department of Physiotherapy, Royal Brisbane & Women's Hospital, Brisbane, Herston 4029, Australia

Received 3 January 2003; Revised 29 January 2004; accepted 4 March 2004. Available online 20 May 2004.

Abstract
Low back pain (LBP) and neck pain are associated with dysfunction of the trunk and neck muscles, respectively, and may involve common or similar mechanisms. In both cases, dysfunction may compromise spinal control. Anecdotally, neck pain patients commonly develop LBP. This study investigated the possibility that trunk muscle function is compromised in neck pain patients and that compromised trunk muscle function is associated with increased risk of LBP. Fifty-four neck pain patients and 52 controls were assessed on an abdominal drawing-in task (ADIT) and on self-report tests. Performance on the ADIT was able to detect neck pain patients with 85% sensitivity and 73% specificity. Catastrophizing and McGill pain questionnaire (affective) scores were higher in patients with an abnormal task response than in patients with an uncertain or normal response, although the self-report data did not predict task performance. Fifty subjects from each group were contactable by telephone at 2 years. They were asked whether they had experienced persistent or recurrent LBP since the assessment. Subjects (patients and controls) who obtained an abnormal response on the ADIT were 3 to 6 times more likely to develop persistent or recurrent LBP than those who obtained an uncertain or normal response. ADIT performance was the main predictor of development of LBP in patients. The results suggest that reduced voluntary trunk muscle control in neck pain patients is associated with an increased risk of developing LBP.
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Old 13-07-2004, 03:33 PM   #27
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Thank you bringing my attention to these two articles Bernard. They will form a portion of my writings. I think this is the journal we should get in here, if we still want to get one.
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Old 13-07-2004, 05:22 PM   #28
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Diane,

The online subscription is reserved to institutions. (I have already a subscription to MT). A normal user is unable to reach the files on internet! :shock: :x

Institutions can load all the files they want! :?:
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Old 16-07-2004, 06:06 AM   #29
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Mr. Moseley, what a surprise ?!

When the ADIT (in other words, the TvAb) isn't functioning correctly (like having Sensory Motor Amnesia), these people are more prone to develop back pain ??

Is that such a revelation ? Doesn't this happen with or without neck pain ?

I guess it is exciting when you don't see the Center of Gravity as the movement center of the whole body..?

And by the way, did anybody check if the patients in the study were holding their posture and movement patterns in a specific way ? For insiders, Red Light, Green Light or other ? And what would their relation be to the Amnesia in the Abdominals ?

Tjeee, articles like this get me going. Does anybody have Moseley's email address for me ??

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Old 16-07-2004, 07:01 AM   #30
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Servaas-

Certainly we have suspected and surmised what you are taking for granted as broad spectrum knowledge... but Moseley has proved it.
There is a difference.


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Old 17-07-2004, 07:04 PM   #31
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Hi Nari,

Of course! But don't take me wrong. I am continuously looking for researchers who are at a high level and are willing to expand on their current understandings. Sounds to me that Moseley is one of them.

I would love to get in touch and help him with future research, so that it won't take 200 years to provide scientific evidence for what is already perceived as 'the obvious'.

There is a long road ahead of us. We cannot do it all by ourselves. We all need each others help!

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Old 19-07-2004, 03:31 AM   #32
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Servaas,

l.moseley@uq.edu.au

to correspond with Mr. Moseley.
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Old 19-07-2004, 09:38 AM   #33
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Servaas

Good luck - hope you can 'dialogue' with Lorimer.

All the best

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