SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27-05-2006, 11:51 AM   #1
Baecker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default position and dysfunction!?

hi,

i have some question which is related to the threads before that position isn't the cause of pain.
now what about dysfunction?
i will try to explain what i mean. i try the example of kiss/kidd kids. now thats a positional/functional fault of the upper cervicals. according to dr. biedermann who is the expert on this subject in germany the children have lots of complains, from cry babies to motoric problems, development standstills etc..
they do respond according to him with a chiropractic intervention which is a so called HIO technique modified by him. what i understand from it after xray and identifying the position of the atlas, axis he gives an impulse to correct the position. there is a web site from some parents who had the problem and they opened a forum. in this forum there often parents reporting dramatic improvement with their children. sadly its all in german.

link: http://www.kiss-kinder.de/indexeng.php?mp=e10
this one is in english the forum is not.

do you think skin stretches or simple contact can get same results?

can we say that position might not cause pain but dysfunction and then later also pain if the body cannot adopt anymore?
Baecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2006, 01:59 PM   #2
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician
 
Barrett Dorko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 63
Posts: 16,489
Thanks: 1,718
Thanked 3,026 Times in 1,724 Posts
Default

Baecker,

Do you actually think this guy hasn't just invented something to treat?

The most vulnerable people in any culture are the parents of sick children. No one should be allowed to prey upon them without the rest of us pointing out just exactly what is happening.

I don't see how this "theory" of position leading to dysfunction is anything more than warmed-up leftovers from the original subluxation theory in chiropractic. It has been completely debunked.

So, I guess Simple Contact wouldn't be my treatment of choice for this problem. If anything manually is done I think we'd have to consider it "drycleaning the Emporer's new clothes."
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2006, 10:32 PM   #3
Baecker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

hi,

i don't think he just invented something to treat, on the forum there are just too many parents who witness positive outcomes. the forum seems very acive and a lot of new posters come.
he seems to treat also just kids who can be diagnosed with xray that there is a positional dysfunction.

here are some xrays i found from him

http://www.manmed.de/seiten/themen/r.../archiv_1.html
on the lower xray even i can see a change of the cervicals after treatment. more important is that the child changed to the better.
i am not totally convinced yet that he has no affect on the children he treated.

thats a link in english
http://www.manmed.de/seiten/themen/m...kinder-en.html


furthermore i must say he just uses minimal amount of visits like one time and then some 6 weeks break and if needed a second time thats all. nothing like chiros from usa who seem to tell people that they have to aligned till the rest of their life.

i must say that i agree that position is not the cause of pain but still i keep a door open that position might not be totally left aside.
Baecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2006, 11:07 PM   #4
aléa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

1- what is kiss/kidd ?

2-Do you really think he can change the position of a bone/another ? And we could see this on X-rays ?
I don't understand how it woul have happened. And i don't know how you diagnose a dysfunction on a X-ray : how can you see a loss of mobility on a photography ? We speak of very small loss of mobility here.
aléa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2006, 11:41 AM   #5
Baecker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

hi,

here is a link http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ract/107/2/339

what is kiss, i think he describes the symptoms pretty much. in the link from above

here some symptoms * Tilted posture of the head, torticollis

* Opisthotonos-like posture, head held in retroflexion. Unable to lie on the back, as this forces the head into anteflexion

* Uniform sleeping posture; the child cries if the mother tries to change its position

* Asymmetric motor patterns, asymmetric posture of trunk and extremities, sometimes combined with a tilted head position reminiscent of a persisting asymmetric tonic neck reflex

* Sleeping disorders; the baby wakes up crying every hour

* Extreme sensitivity of the neck

* Cranial scoliosis, swelling of one side of the facial soft tissues

* Blockages of the iliosacral joints, asymmetries of the gluteus muscles.

* Asymmetric development and range of movement of the hips

---

the dysfunction is not only diagnosed by the xray, also there is restricted motion, extreme sensetivity to palpation and the above mentioned symptoms.

do i believe that he pushes the bone in the right spot? difficult to say, my guess that the body aligns itself into funtional position after an input was given.
actually i noice myself on my patients who come with so called bad postures, neck forward, round shoulders etc. after treatment they look often taller, straighter, neck less in forward position. and i don't tell them to be straight, also i don't force it on them.

i often exaggerate their position passively stay in this position and wait, often they start to move by themselves and i just follow. sounds similar to simple touch from what i read from here, but i use exaggeration of their position or preference of motion. then wait if something happens.

but i wonder if i don't coerce on the so called ideal, often though they turn to go to the so called ideal after treatment. wonder why? maybe position is not totally unimportant?

from what i read from barrett that the internal rotated leg is important, so isn't that also position which causes dysfunction? pain?
Baecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2006, 01:15 PM   #6
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,819
Thanks: 3,086
Thanked 6,248 Times in 2,837 Posts
Default

Baeker, why would not this tendency of these babies who were studied and found to have sleeping patterns so pervasive that they ended up with a flattened head... (oh, the cosmetic horror of that) ... why would they not be, like anyone else, subject to a nervous system that is trying to defend itself, trying to not become hypoxic somewhere? Why are practitioners such as chiropractors so eager to blame bone position for everything?

It's important to not make a "category error" here... when a leg position is commonly found along with symptoms of pain, it's an ASSOCIATION, not cause and effect. The position does not "cause" the pain.
In your example, when a kid has a flat head on one side and prefers a certain sleeping position, the bone positions are ASSUMED TO BE TO BLAME for the behavior. It's a fallacy.
It's important when negotiating one's way through life as a practitioner to notice everything and assume nothing. Most things are mere constellations and we see patterns, that's all. It doesn't mean that one thing literally hinges on another. One must learn to DI-ssociate, in fact, and conceptually examine something and each factor about something from all sides.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

Last edited by Diane; 28-05-2006 at 01:22 PM.
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2006, 06:35 AM   #7
Baecker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

hi,

these are symptoms which describe the kiss syndrome, as for the cause it was often prolonged difficult labor which put a lot of strain on the baby.

it doesn't mean its from the nervous system. if i see on a xray a faulty position why would you blame them if they see with this symptoms? and specially after an intervention the problems disappear.
the arguement on the healthy subject you might see also positional fault ,they normally counter that the body adapted to the situation.

i just wondered that what i read from the forum many mothers tried with osteopathy first with little success. the osteopath seemed to use softer techniques but after they got treatment from one of these doctors with a more direct intervention they got better.
so why are soft techniques not also successful?
Baecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2006, 01:19 PM   #8
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,561
Thanks: 1,914
Thanked 1,419 Times in 623 Posts
Default

Impossibly to answer. First of all, "soft techniques" does not mean anything specific, so how can one compare? Second, remember that those who post about the success are those who have had success. That's all. No idea whether there are MANY more who have had soft tissue "success" but are simply posting on another site, claiming the success of soft tissue uechniques and complaining about the "failed direct intervention". You get my drift? You simply can't extrapolate from any numbers on a forum to get to a conclusion of efficacy of a technique.

I quote: " Tilted posture of the head, torticollis

* Opisthotonos-like posture, head held in retroflexion. Unable to lie on the back, as this forces the head into anteflexion

* Uniform sleeping posture; the child cries if the mother tries to change its position

* Asymmetric motor patterns, asymmetric posture of trunk and extremities, sometimes combined with a tilted head position reminiscent of a persisting asymmetric tonic neck reflex

* Sleeping disorders; the baby wakes up crying every hour

* Extreme sensitivity of the neck" end quote.

Now how can these be exclusively blamed on prolonged labour? Of course, it is theoretically possible, but if you look carefully at the items you listed, the nervous system plays a central role in it. So what Diane suggests is much more valid than applying external force to "align" some positional fault. Are those babies x-rayed immediately following birth (I mean IMMEDIATELY)? If not - and I suspect that's the case - then there is absolutely NO evidence that the x-ray signs of positional dysfunction are related to the birth itself. It is much more likely that those are related to neural stress.....
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 11:12 AM   #9
Luke Rickards
Arbiter
 
Luke Rickards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Adelaide
Age: 39
Posts: 2,526
Thanks: 6
Thanked 73 Times in 29 Posts
Default

Systematic review of the effects of therapy in infants with the KISS-syndrome (kinetic imbalance due to suboccipital strain)

[Systematisch literatuuronderzoek naar de effecten van behandeling bij zuigelingen met 'kopgewrichteninvloed bij storingen in de symmetrie' ('KISS-syndroom')]

Brand, P L P; Engelbert, R H H; Helders, P J M; Offringa, M

Isala Klinieken, Amalia kinderafdeling, Postbus 10.500, 8000 GM Zwolle; e-mail p.l.p.brand@isala.nl



Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To establish the effects of manual therapy, chiropractic, or osteopathic treatment of the KISS-syndrome (kinetic imbalance due to suboccipital strain) in infants with positional preference, plagiocephaly, and colic. DESIGN: Systematic review of the literature. METHOD: PubMed, Embase and the Cochrane Library were searched for articles on the effects of manual therapy, chiropractic and osteopathy on the KISS-syndrome. Experts in the field of manual medicine and osteopathy were asked to provide relevant articles. The bibliography in a textbook of manual therapy for children was hand-searched for additional references to the KISS-syndrome. RESULTS: No clinical trials were found that evaluated the effects of manual therapy or osteopathy on either the KISS-syndrome or its symptoms. Pooled analysis of two randomised clinical trials on the effects of chiropractic in infantile colic showed no statistically significant difference between active and control treatments. In addition, we found that 22% of infants showed short episodes of apnoea during manual therapy of the spine, and that one case has been described in which such apnoea resulted in death. CONCLUSION: Given the absence of evidence of beneficial effects of spinal manipulation in infants and in view of its potential risks, manual therapy, chiropractic and osteopathy should not be used in infants with the KISS-syndrome, except within the context of randomised double-blind controlled trials. [Journal Article, Meta-Analysis, Review; 27 Refs; In Dutch; Netherlands; MEDLINE]
Luke Rickards is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hand over Head Position . emad Clinical Reasoning 2 19-05-2005 09:28 PM
Function resulting in dysfunction BB General Discussion 15 01-09-2004 05:35 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014