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#1 | |
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In the Septemebr 2005 issue of IJOM, editor Robert Moran wrote:
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The letter rightly states, "The ‘‘cranial’’ model is far from perfect, and osteopaths are beginning to accept shortcomings of the current theory. In the UK some have suggested different hypotheses and alternative explanations (8,9). Unfortunately though, they neglected to cite another hypothesis that was published in the JOM in 2003. Luke |
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#2 |
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Luke,
It seems that the Osteopathic world is indentical to the PT one. Discordes and "scientific" against "empiric" members that are unable to discuss with a same language: Where is the patient in the tale?
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#3 |
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Hi Louke, as you know we agree on our view of the "cranial" model we were taught at uni, so it will be interesting to see what aussie cranial osteos make of these new cranial models
Unfortunately i cant access any of the links on your post? anyone know why? |
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#4 | |
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Quote:
Just read this important topic. Join the SomaSimplers' Group!
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#5 |
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Matt,
As far as I can see, the only changes that the cranial community will make are those that are 'trendy', just like all those who have now switched to the Biodynamic cranial model - it won't be because of validity or plausability. Barrett, I wonder if the 'repackaging' of Simple Contact for physios will also be relevant for cranial osteopaths, or perhaps a separate package will be necessary to appeal to this group. |
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#6 |
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hi luke, a quick alternate view. osteopaths are obsessed with defining themselves in opposition to chiropractors, physiotherapists, and md's. let us not as a collective of people that are attempting to enquire into the why's and how's of this field fall into the same trap. it is endlessly boring. let us spend our time instead using our intensly inquisitive natures to ask if these working hypothesis are indeed flawed as most of us believe, what the hell is going on under our hands????? working models are just that and in time people will look back at us and think how primitive we are too! there will always be acolytes and nepotism and charlatans in every industry and then there will just be amazing people whose love of inquiry keeps them endlessly fascinated by this field. mr dorko and mr sutherland and mr still are all part of that collective history!!!! the why is far more interesting than the who!!
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#7 | |
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Sam,
Quote:
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#8 | |
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世界の中心で、愛をさけぶ
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Quote:
Oh my GoD I don't know this function in my CP user... Thanks.... I will join the group... And I had never known that if you have not post this information.
__________________
Lin Chih-Chung, PT, MS, Taiwan
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#9 |
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Lin,
Do not worry, you're already a somasimpler.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#10 | |
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Here is Hartman's rejoinder to Maddick and Korth -
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#11 |
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Some more nails in the craniosacral coffin...
These from the November issue of the Journal of Orthopedic and Sports Physical Therapy....
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Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
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#12 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I just read these papers Jason, and found myself nodding along throughout.
Especially, I agree with the bit that states (paraphrased) that other explanations for these procedures must be developed, and that an unsupportable theory should not only not be used to explain the work to patients, it should be discarded completely. Personally I think the term dermoneuromodulation suffices as a substitute. I'm still working on the biological model, but you can bet it won't be based on anything mesodermal.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#14 |
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I've seen Canter and Ernst work cited a few times here on this site and elsewhere and came across this:
Chiropr Osteopat. 2006 Aug 3;14:14. Links Review conclusions by Ernst and Canter regarding spinal manipulation refuted.
ABSTRACT: In the April 2006 issue of the Journal of Royal Society of Medicine, Ernst and Canter authored a review of the most recent systematic reviews on the effectiveness of spinal manipulation for any condition. The authors concluded that, except for back pain, spinal manipulation is not an effective intervention for any condition and, because of potential side effects, cannot be recommended for use at all in clinical practice. Based on a critical appraisal of their review, the authors of this commentary seriously challenge the conclusions by Ernst and Canter, who did not adhere to standard systematic review methodology, thus threatening the validity of their conclusions. There was no systematic assessment of the literature pertaining to the hazards of manipulation, including comparison to other therapies. Hence, their claim that the risks of manipulation outweigh the benefits, and thus spinal manipulation cannot be recommended as treatment for any condition, was not supported by the data analyzed. Their conclusions are misleading and not based on evidence that allow discrediting of a large body of professionals using spinal manipulation. |
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#15 | ||||
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Here is a piece I've written for the upcoming issue of the CPPSG newsletter. I was inspired by the two articles Jason posted higher up in this thread.
Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire Last edited by Diane; 07-01-2007 at 02:22 AM. |
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#16 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Nice job Diane. I look forward to seeing the article in its dress clothes when the newsletter come out. It will be posted here right?
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#17 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Thanks Jon. Yes the newsletter will, and this inside, maybe edited a bit for length.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#18 |
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Very nice Diane! I have a student starting next week, and you can bet she'll be reading this in her first week.
Cory
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Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page |
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#19 |
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Great article, Diane, well written.
I submit that if they think it's too long they ought to drop something else from the newsletter to make room...
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Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
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#20 |
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Diane,
Since reading this wonderful letter I've been thinking about how I can possibly fit such a thing into my teaching. As yet, I can only conclude that a few key phrases, (well referenced to you, of course) might have to suffice. The trick is to learn the right ones by heart and deliver them at the right moment. What I see here is a spectacular response to the exhasperated mesodermalist who sneeringly asks, "How is just touching another person going to accomplish anything?" They don't really expect much of a reply so their guard drops. Little do they know that this very question places them right where I'd hoped they would go. |
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#21 |
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Robert Moran's editorial (mentioned in the first post) might add something here.
While I am very sympathetic to your message Diane, I agree with the editor's statement and Moran (BTW, there doesn't actually appear to be a direct challenge to the editor's assumptions on catagorisation in the points raised). Sure, persistent pain can occur completely divorced from direct involvement with musculoskeletal structures, however I don't see how that should preclude examining the effectiveness of CST for all common pain conditions, including peristent pain. Ultimately (ideally) we should have evidence of effectiveness for what we do. If we abandon all categorisation of chronic painful conditions into a simple 'persistent pain' then this research would become very difficult. You can't realistically run a trial with patients who have 'persistent pain' and include patients with anterior wrist pain or knee pain or mid-thoracic pain or TMJ pain, and expect the results to be useful for managing any of these separately or managing persistent lower back pain, for example. So you have to separate these out, then you have to separate pathological/traumatic from non-pathological, and by now you have a "specific condition" in front of you (even though it may actually be called non-specific .....pain). Perhaps if he added "neuro" to musculoskeletal it would be more palatable. I continue to be in awe of your descriptions of the mechanism behind gentle manual therapy. Last edited by Luke Rickards; 11-01-2007 at 03:44 PM. |
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#22 |
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Hi Luke,
Stated precisely the way you have, I don't disagree either.. What I do disagree with is any simplistic attempt, deliberative or inadvertant, to promote an exaggerated orthopaedic agenda within PT, through lack of thinking in depth about what goes wrong with function. Forgive me for being picky, but where in the phrase "specific musculoskeletal conditions" (i.e., read "existing insurance compensation categories" ..!) is there any room for consideration of pain or the nervous system? Yes, I would have liked to see "neuro" in there somewhere, and not just as a modifier of "muscular", as if the only real use for a neuro system is to make muscle go, and never any consideration of the role the sensory side of the system plays, or the functional glitches that can happen when the sensing system would seem to have become too dominant in an individual human organism. ![]() I see entirely too much of this shortcut thinking in PT - what I refer to as "mesodermal" thinking. It leads to professional dullness IMO. And I'm pleased you enjoy reading the glimpses into the sensory side of the human nervous system being and doing. To me, this puts the horse back in front of the cart of manual therapy of whatever kind.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#23 |
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I'm sorry Diane, I didn't know that "specific musculoskeletal conditions" meant "existing insurance compensation categories".
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#24 |
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No need to apologize, Luke,
- how on earth would you have known that's what it really means? In N.America anyway? A situation which tends to generate a huge degree of obtuseness in the treatment world here ... It's something I've come to recognize as a set of intersecting or interacting or nested or encapsulated social forces that I (inside my own head) call "the mesodermal agenda." It irritates me that people can only get paid if they think in mesodermal categories. It further irritates me that people allow this "being paid" factor to drive their own thinking. It completely pisses me off when everyone in an entire profession is expected by those who consider themselves "leaders" to conform to this way of thinking about the human organism, as if it were a) the only way to think, and b) even remotely accurate. I am further annoyed to pieces when the country I live in adopted such notions decades ago, even when it didn't have to, thereby impacting the Canadian provision of PT outpatient private practice treatment unnecessarily, swept along by the orthopaedic "specific musculoskeletal condition" wave (although we are completely direct access here in this province, and off insurance, thank goodness, for the last 6 years, beyond the clutches of mesodermalism, those of us who want to be). I still find my hackles going up when I think of all the UN-learning and DE-programming there is to do in the aftermath. Meanwhile, I've re-tooled a book diagram to illustrate the relative importance of skin (and thus ectoderm/nervous system), and how impossible it is to avoid or circumvent in manual treatment.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire Last edited by Diane; 11-01-2007 at 03:59 PM. |
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#25 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Hi Luke,
I'm not at my usual computer but I got "the jumbles" (my official term) that others mentioned last time you posted an article. This article might benefit from whatever treatment you gave the last article.
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#26 |
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I get the same problem, Luke.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard Last edited by bernard; 11-01-2007 at 03:42 PM. |
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#28 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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Idem, sorry: this version is made for some alien readers.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#29 |
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I get the same result, too, Luke.
Weird. Nari |
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#30 |
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It opens fine for me..
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#31 |
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Luke,
The copy you sent by email makes the same problems and I tried on another computer without success. Perhaps the problem occurs only with PCs?
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#33 |
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Since Diane is able to see it correctly and save it in the same way, there is a chance that her copy may work?
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#35 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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I know but we must have a trial.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#36 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I'll try attaching it and we'll see what happens.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#37 |
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The same thing, unfortunately.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#38 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I could download it this time. It might be a PC--Mac conflict.
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#39 | |
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Quote:
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#41 |
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I wanted to revive this thread because we never discussed the most recent article that Luke posted and I'm curious of people's thoughts on a few things.
It is no surprise that there is no support for cranio, but I'm frankly surprised by the lack of galvanic skin response. Galvanic skin response is a way to examine sympathetic response. I had thought to myself before that this would be an interesting way to study handling. What do you all make of this lack of galvanic skin response to the touch provided in this study?
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#42 |
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When I read the article, I thought I saw that it doubled. In the graph. Between phase 1 and 5. What would be considered a good shift?
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#43 |
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Hi Cory,
A few of considerations occur to me. 1. This study was performed on asymptomatic people. Increased sympathetic tone may not have been present and therefore statistically significant reductions may be unrealistic. 2. The touch used in this study was not employed in the knowledge that corrective movements, which may have a more profound effect on sympathetic tone, are present and should be allowed to emerge. 3. As discussed, recent literature suggests that galvanic skin response is complex and may have little correlation with other perimeters representing sympathetic activity. Last edited by Luke Rickards; 28-06-2007 at 02:20 PM. |
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#44 |
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A GSR only be able to measure a relative increase/decrease in sympathetic response... as Luke said in asymptomatic individuals there may be no change. In a polygraph the GSR is measured along with BP, HR, and RR to measure anxiety/autonomic response taking into account a few more systems. That being said, it would be interesting to see if coercive and heavy manual techinques resulted in GSR change.
Chris
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#45 |
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OK. Thanks gang. I'll now re-read the article.
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#46 |
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The latest installment of the cranial debate in IJOM is about to be published. There are several excellent arguments that extend well beyond the deconstruction of OCF in Hartman's reply here. It's well worth the read.
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#47 |
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Luke, this was enlightening! Maddick's letter did more harm his image as a scientist than support osteopathy....And I LOVE Hartman's choice of words when describing the cranio-sacral mechanisms: "prescientific".... Priceless.
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