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HI all ;
I liked this lecture ,here you are : Neural Mechanisms of Persistent Pain Professor Marshall Devor Quote:
Emad
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#2 |
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Very succinct. Where does this lecture come from Emad?
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#3 |
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Emad,
This paper is talking a lot about ectopic discharges but I do not consider that is a real source of chronic pain. Ectopic discharge is against many physics principles. An "ectopic" contamination within a nerve is a huge affair that forgets nerves suffer many mechanical stresses without any problem. IMHO, it doesn't work because the Coulomb law does not let any chance to such a behaviour.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#4 | |
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Hi Diane & Bernard ;
Well , this lecture comes to me during research to solve my patient with pain attacks ( Neuralgia ) i put a thread here and on NOI , David there responded brought this abstract : [quote] Quote:
A link to there ; http://www.noigroup.com/cgi-bin/ubbc...c;f=5;t=000650 As i tried to search , i found that lecture ,yes Diane seems to be an abstract only , but it is concerning what i discuss. a link to the article ; http://www.thepainweb.com/doclib/000061.html Cheers Emad
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Last edited by Diane; 27-09-2006 at 03:45 PM. |
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#5 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Thanks Emad..
Bernard, do you assert that nerves cannot form new receptors along their axons and become sensitized?
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#6 |
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Not at all.
This way makes perfectly sense but a ectopic contamination is not related to ions channels. Ectopic discharges involve too much things :
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#7 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Bernard, do you not agree that sympathetic fibres are leaky? Their job is to stir axons within the insulation, no?
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#8 |
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J Neurosci. 2005 Mar 9;25(10):2576-85.
Multiple interacting sites of ectopic spike electrogenesis in primary sensory neurons. Department of Cell and Animal Biology and the Center for Research on Pain, Institute of Life Sciences, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 91904, Israel. ronamir@pob.huji.ac.il Ectopic discharge generated in injured afferent axons and cell somata in vivo contributes significantly to chronic neuropathic dysesthesia and pain after nerve trauma. Progress has been made toward understanding the processes responsible for this discharge using a preparation consisting of whole excised dorsal root ganglia (DRGs) with the cut nerve attached. In the in vitro preparation, however, spike activity originates in the DRG cell soma but rarely in the axon. We have now overcome this impediment to understanding the overall electrogenic processes in soma and axon, including the resulting discharge patterns, by modifying the bath medium in which recordings are made. At both sites, bursts can be triggered by subthreshold oscillations, a phasic stimulus, or spikes arising elsewhere in the neuron. In the soma, once triggered, bursts are maintained by depolarizing afterpotentials, whereas in the axon, an additional process also plays a role, delayed depolarizing potentials. This alternative process appears to be involved in "clock-like" bursting, a discharge pattern much more common in axons than somata. Ectopic spikes arise alternatively in the soma, the injured axon end (neuroma), and the region of the axonal T-junction. Discharge sequences, and even individual multiplet bursts, may be a mosaic of action potentials that originate at these alternative electrogenic sites within the neuron. Correspondingly, discharge generated at these alternative sites may interact, explaining the sometimes-complex firing patterns observed in vivo. PMID: 15758167 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#9 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#10 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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Diane, they are leaky at their endings (peripheral sites). I'm not sure that it will work along the nerve.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#11 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I'll look up what goes on "along" axons; seems to me I read in one of the Burnstock books on autonomics about the "leaky garden hose" anaology. I'll see if I can find it.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#12 |
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Bernard ,thanks for the complete article .
The issue of Ectopic discharges ,polarization and depolarisation is so complex for me ,however i had studied it during my undergarduate study ,but still not clear or shaped in simple language and physics . The main point is reasoning pain attacks on the Hypothesis of Ectopic discharges ,meaning perpherial hypothesis however is called usually central ,no matter that now perpherial or central ........... How can we explain pain attacks /dischanges in patients at certain times and after that they are completely free !! Diane , i think yes AIGS are the source of ectopic discharges !! Seems so ! I agree chronicity has many reasons/grounds more than Ectopic dischagres . Cheers Emad
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#13 |
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Diane and Emad,
I do not discard anyway AIGS but simply its origin. If a neuron is able to put more ions channels on an axon membrane, it is for an unique interest: a response. A response to what? Just to solve this complex equation => maintain a transmission of information that is vital for brain. If you perturb the system in the transmission lines you create of course many problems that seem weird and that we call neuropathic pain. This kind of behaviour is certainly not designed at first. It comes only with special conditions. My concern is about the ectopic contamination: an electrical contamination that have few probability to occur.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#14 |
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#15 |
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My understanding of AIGS is that they are more a tissue response, less a firing malfunction, that they tie in with hypoxia. Not that lack of O2"causes" them, but rather that lack of blood flow, creates an undesirable functional ecosystem situation wherein the substances that leak out all the time from the sympathetic outflow axons, onto the inflow sensory axons, anyway, do not get flushed away in a timely manner. That they are like diaper rash, an eruptive response to irritation that has been in place for too long. At least that's how my own simple mind sees things.
If that's true, then the brain has another avenue of sensitization (more peripheral) to deal with, that is outside the DRG's scope. It will be bombarded with more volume of impulses to process. I think (from Butler, hope I interpreted him correctly) they are extra ion channels that become dismantled once ordinary blood flow is reestablished.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#16 |
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Diane,
You're falling in my garden since neuron puts channels only to restore a malfunction. BTW, a constant leaking site may be a firing site as well. But a constant leaking site is a tissue injury that doesn't resolve.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#17 | |
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Quote:
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#18 | ||||
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From this thread, post 31:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#19 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Quote:
My point is, that if blood flow is insufficient to keep the leaks diluted, they'll cause trouble.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#20 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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Diane,
I just realize that I took ectopic as synonym of ephactic. ![]() I agree with all the posts.
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#21 | |
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Quote:
__________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#22 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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__________________
Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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