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Old 10-11-2006, 07:32 PM   #201
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Diane,

Because the magical facet joints don't reside elsewhere.

Haven't you been paying attention?

Books on the way.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:36 PM   #202
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Do!h - forgot the facet joints had anything to do with anything. Or are supposed to. ... Do they really?
Look forward to the books.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:35 PM   #203
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Nari,

Excellent point, I should have wrote "We facilitate" rather than "We're in control". See how easy it is to revise the wording, guys?


Diane

Parlez-vous francais?

Whenever a manipulative is done outside the spine, to the mortise joint, for example, its not called SMT anymore, I've seen it referred to as CMT, MT, extremity manipulation, etc. I do agree that the mechanisms involved are neural, with the message being RELAYED from the PNS to the CNS. I will also add, however, that neural and mechanical mechanisms can be involved and that these are not mutually exclusive. Vincenzino has some good work regarding MWM and these mechanisms.

Quote:
when it was thought the human nervous system deserved kicking as if it were a coke machine taking money but stubbornly not delivering a can full of that fizzy stuff.
Linking SMT to kicking a coke machine is similar to me linking DMN and yanking skin. I would hope that you could admit performing SMT is refined skill that requires a lot of coordination and good psychomotor skills.


Quote:
lessening the amount of handling overall, letting the person restore their own functioning to their own self, reflexively.
I don't disagree to this approach, I just happen to use SMT to sometimes get the ball rolling in this direction.

Barrett

For the record, it's controlled falling

Reflections

I've noticed some interesting observations during the length of this thread; one of the biggest is the rigidity of opinion in the face of scientific evidence and common sense.

One of the biggest ironies is that a few choice people in this thread are so rigid in their belief/opinion against SMT is that they cannot even acknowledge its validity for even SOME cases.

This rigidity of thought leads to dogma. This type of thought is perverse in subluxation chiropractic, yet ironically, some of the "big fishes" here seem to adopting the same approach regarding SMT regardless of what the literature says.

So, in the end, it looks like this topic is boiling down to a matter of personal philosophy, for some. I've already acknowledged that I'm open to using new approaches that might be better than SMT for some cases, including SC and DMN. I've also acknowledged that soft tissue treatments work on a neural basis although I also believe there can be a concurrent mechanical component especially with injuries with fibrotic healing.

So, I've adapted my thinking based on the literature presented here. The question is, why aren't some of you?

Ginger

Thanks for providing the comic relief this thread has needed.


PS: Can someone please share with me all the feet jokes? Is ginger walking on people's backs?

Last edited by Evidencebased; 11-11-2006 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:24 PM   #204
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I can't agree with the chiropractor's conclusions.

Not once have I been impressed by the "evidence" presented in defense of SMT, and certainly not in relation to what is known about the tissue responsible for the problem and how that tissue is most reasonably approach with the therapist's hands. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

I don't think that "personal philosophy" drives my method or that of others here that simply disagree with the way you handle patients. There is a difference between philosophy and scientific knowledge; a huge difference. You're right about rigidity of thought here though. But I don't see how those of us (like myself) who once used SMT and then grew with the science offered us can be fairly described this way.

You can call what we do and think "dogma" all you want, but it isn't. It's obvious to me that being offered literature isn't supposed to automatically change another's thinking. Rejecting bad ideas is as important as recognizing good ones.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:58 PM   #205
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Barrett

Quote:
I can't agree with the chiropractor's conclusions.
How dehumanizing. "The Chiropractor". Like I'm some kind of virus or inaminate object or something. Not once, in this entire thread have you ever referred to me by my name. It also seems like my conclusions should be rejected because I'm a "chiropractor" more than anything else. I have to ask, are you deliberately using that term to and try to discredit me? It seems that way.

Quote:
But I don't see how those of us (like myself) who once used SMT and then grew with the science offered us can be fairly described this way.
Now you are inferring that anyone who uses SMT is not following the scientific, peer-reviewed evidence. Also, I wasn't critiquing you for employing approaches other than SMT. What I was critiquing is that you have rejected SMT as valid approach for low back pain in ALL CASES. That's where the rigidity part comes up.

Quote:
Rejecting bad ideas is as important as recognizing good ones.
SMT is a bad idea? How come you continue to reject it even though the literature states its effective for certain populations (Childs' work).

I can understand why individuals choose not to use SMT, but the full rejection of it, despite the evidence, not only presented here, but in all of the peer-reviewed journals, does seem dogmatic. If not that, what else to call it?
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:18 PM   #206
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Chiropractors are like viruses? Marc, I find it ironic that you come onto Soma as "Evidencebased" like your some type of thing instead of person and that everything you post is likely to be "evidencebased". Is that a picture of you looking contemplative? I can't make out what the person is contemplating.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:43 PM   #207
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Jon,

I'd really like to clear up the whole reason why I called myself evidencebased.

I was invited onto this site by one of the mods. S/he told me to use the same name I was using in chirotalk so I could be identified. I did not know of the that it was considered unprofessional to do so at forums. I did not know the customs and conventions. I know this now. The only reason why I keep the EB name is so I don't lose access to certain parts of the forum which requires a certain number of posts. As far my treatments, I definitely use EBP to guide my clinical decision making. Are you suggesting, from my posts, that I do not?

Your comment regarding my picture is baffling. What does it have to do with the conversation? I was showing it as a act of good faith, trying to "fit in" more, as per the points made in the aforementioned paragraph. I hope this closes the case regarding my alias "EB" and that I have something to hide.

PS: I'm contemplating if I should have the red or the white wine. I'm actually reading from the "Little Wino" hand book that my parents got me.


PPS

Quote:
I find it ironic that you come onto Soma as "Evidencebased" like your some type of thing instead of person and that everything you post is likely to be "evidencebased"
I'm searching for the irony. Maybe I'm misreading your statement... have I not provided papers and references for the claims I've been making here? Have I not taken into account opposing views and modified my opinions based on this? Has there been a time, while on Soma, that I have not been "evidence based"? Please clarify, Jon.

Anything I post discussing the merits/demerits will definitely be based on literature, and I will always provide references, if asked, to any claims I make. I can only hope that I'm held to the same standard as others here, and not moreso because I'm "the chiropractor".

Last edited by Evidencebased; 11-11-2006 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:26 AM   #208
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Marc,

I think what others are saying is that there is good, sound literature and some fairly dodgy literature. Many therapists go with what appeals to their knowledge base, and pass by that which doesn't.
This is a broad statement, not directed at anyone in particular on this board or elsewhere.
Child's study is useful, but does not translate well into the big clinical picture where 'physical' signs occur in the presence of psychosocial/emotional factors.

When I joined the Australian PT forum, I used an alias - it was my first venture into a professional forum and had no idea what I was getting into. I like to use my own name, because it seems more honest, but I have no beef with those who don't, and you sign your name anyway.
I don't mind your avatar.

Ginger may answer for himself, but in Asia it is quite common for kids and not so heavy adults to use their feet on spines and sacrums, usually with support so all the weight does not squish whatever is below. It's interesting, but dramatic, and would not go down well in most professional circles. It is a form of manipulation, though Ginger may not agree with that..


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Old 12-11-2006, 12:27 AM   #209
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Hi Marc,

Who said it was unprofessional to not use your real name? It's just less personal. Is my asking about your picture off limits? You seemed worried about being dehumanized and I was trying to help out that way.

ps. The irony is that while you worry about being dehumanized you chose an adjective for your screen name. It's not a criticism. I'm made of irony.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:42 AM   #210
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Which "mod" on chirotalk sent you here?
For the record, I completely support Barrett's post.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:31 AM   #211
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Marc,

I think you seem to be asking "Does anyone else see a double standard of evidence and the acceptance of arguments as well as in behavior and the tone of posts on this forum?" If this is the question, the answer, for the record, is yes I see one also. Virtually every new poster that doesn't agree with the consensus here has complained about it. I suppose it is just coincidence.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:33 AM   #212
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I should add that if you can overlook this and basically ignore it, there can be some interesting ideas presented.
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:27 PM   #213
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Randy,

Many new posters have never before been held to the standards of evidence and discourse that seem to be unique to Soma Simple. By that I mean unique among those sites that discuss clinical issues in physical and manual therapy.

Again I'll quote Einstein after his initial foray into the community of professional physicists in 1905. Writing to a friend he says:

"I am very happy to see that our colleagues are lookng carefully at my theories, even if it is in hopes of destroying them."

This simple acknowledgment of the nature of scientific dialogue, especially when theory is developed (which is pretty much all the time) marks Einstein as something other than the modern day therapist treating patients manually. That population, as you often see here, is full of things they "believe" in, arrive clutching fiercely to questionable evidence and anecdote and are quick to take personal offense whenever their theory is shown to be lacking.

If you've an example of a moderator behaving in such a fashion, trot it out. That's the kind of example you'd need to demonstrate a "double standard." I think we've only one standard here but many therapists, not having a scientific mindset, have difficulty with it. To me, that's Soma Simple's strength, not its problem.

This is science, not politics. In science someone is often proven wrong or, at least, relatively wrong in relation to others. This thread has demonstrated that once again. There are no winners or losers if we approach the whole thing as an opportunity to learn, either by strengthening our position with thoughtfulness and further investigation or abandoning it in favor of something better.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:32 PM   #214
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Hi Jon,

Quote:
ps. The irony is that while you worry about being dehumanized you chose an adjective for your screen name.
I was specifically referring to Mr. Dorko who has yet to call me by my real name at any point in the thread. He is the only one not to do so. That's the only instance where I've felt objectified and I personally believe those words were chosen to discredit me. These are only assumptions and I may be corrected. In the meantime, I've just attended a Dr. Phil and Tony Robbins workshop so now I'm all better and ready to go

Randy

I can't say I totally disagree with you...

Barrett

Quote:
In science someone is often proven wrong or, at least, relatively wrong in relation to others. This thread has demonstrated that once again.


Quote:
There are no winners or losers if we approach the whole thing as an opportunity to learn, either by strengthening our position with thoughtfulness and further investigation or abandoning it in favor of something better.


Marc

PS: Will you please send me a copy of Simple Contact? Will anybody teach me/point to me to some lit or threads where I can learn some kind of clinical application of SC or DNM?
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:28 PM   #215
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Well, if someone were to call me a physical therapist I wouldn't feel "objectified" nor "dehumanized" nor "discredited."

Claiming that you've been victimized here is transparent, untrue and unwelcomed. Your theory has certainly been shredded, though you may continue to state otherwise, hoping, I suppose, that someone might actually agree with you. (See my last post for more on that)

There's no such a thing as "a copy of Simple Contact" and Diane (unlike me) has explained precisely just what she does several times on this site, and recently too. You seem to choose not to read what she's posted. This continual asking for information already provided reminds me of a certain therapist in Michigan that plagued another site many of us used to contribute to regularly.

Most of us left or rarely visit any longer. It pretty much fell apart, but that will not happen here.
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Old 13-11-2006, 03:51 PM   #216
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This thread was closed as it was hopelessly dysfunctional and likely serves as a case study in anti-process. The "useful" content of the thread could be captured by a handful of posts. "Useful" is in quotation marks as I don't think anything particularly new or substantive had been offered by either side of the argument. No other posts were deleted. Sorry for the distraction.
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