SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Post New Thread  Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14-09-2008, 09:11 PM   #151
oljoha
Senior Member
 
oljoha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 276
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail View Post
DOMS

Ole-
Whether the word is "selective" or "selectively" - how do we know that the muscle is a special case for this sort of effect and not the skin, or nerve tissue, or blood vessels?
Ok - English - although I think I'm pretty darn good at it - is not my mother tongue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail;
I think if Ole was proposing to specifically diagnose the location of these adhesions, then we could press him to show us the manual examination, but that's not what I'm reading. Ole, is this correct? I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion on this issue.
Correct. Got to tackle one subject at a time. There is no need to discuss diagnostic measures if we have yet to establish agreement on 1. the existence of adhesions and that they 2. actually can contribute to pain.

I'm here because discussing a topic requires you to think about it and learn more about it. And I've learned a lot. I've had good success with using ART so softly that I'm just barely stretching skin - especially on the "fibromyalgia" crowd. So I'm well aware there is much else going on when I do what I do. Other times though I really have to work hard before getting any results (I usually start out with "medium" pressure).

It does however get annoying when people want to argue language and syntax. It's like some are scouring for grammatical errors and typos. And what is especially annoying is being attributed standpoints because someone assumes that's where you're coming from.
__________________
Ole Reidar Johansen, Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
oljoha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:13 PM   #152
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Quote:
but for the sake of discussing adhesions NOT pain I will disregard the nervous system for now.
Maybe you can rule out the nervous system, but chances are pretty high that unless you sneak past skin somehow, the nervous system won't be ruling out you...
But I see you do actually go light, so you can disregard me too if you wish.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:21 PM   #153
oljoha
Senior Member
 
oljoha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 276
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
I'm pretty sure that microtrauma has been completely ruled out as concurrent with DOMS.
Well I'll be darned then. Cool. I've learned something new. Excellent. It won't be the first time my world view has been shattered. It just makes things more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Though I recently read on the Supertraining listserve that DOMS may reasonably considered an appropriate adaptive response to repetitive and sufficiently forceful contraction, its underlying deep model within the muscle remains a mystery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
Any thoughts on ruling the skin in or out? Isn't this kind of important when describing the supposed effect of a technique that impacts it?
Skin is in. I'm on board. I have been for a year or so now. But - I'm not quite willing to let the other structures go yet - there are nerves in there too. Yes Barrett it is important when describing the supposed effect of a technique. However - like I just stated in the post above (unless somebody is posting while I'm writing this) this discussion is getting nowhere if people don't accept the existence of adhesions.
__________________
Ole Reidar Johansen, Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
oljoha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:31 PM   #154
oljoha
Senior Member
 
oljoha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 276
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Maybe you can rule out the nervous system, but chances are pretty high that unless you sneak past skin somehow, the nervous system won't be ruling out you...
But I see you do actually go light, so you can disregard me too if you wish.
I won't disregard you Stuff you've written is definitively part of my current world view. Pain is all nerves and brain.

Maybe I should ask you a question. If we accept for about 53 seconds (or so) that adhesions can occur in muscles. Would you consider them as something that possibly could annoy nerves inside the muscle and somehow lead to sensitization?
__________________
Ole Reidar Johansen, Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
oljoha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:38 PM   #155
oljoha
Senior Member
 
oljoha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 276
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Here's the post with evidence of adhesions

Again to avoid being hounded. Let's stick to establishing the existence of adhesions first.
__________________
Ole Reidar Johansen, Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
oljoha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:40 PM   #156
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

Hi Ole,
Quote:
If we accept for about 53 seconds (or so) that adhesions can occur in muscles. Would you consider them as something that possibly could annoy nerves inside the muscle and somehow lead to sensitization?
Sure, just like I'd accept (for the sake of argument, but possibly for only fewer than 10 seconds) that the tooth fairy might prefer the tooth in a baggie instead of a face tissue, however, it doesn't mean the tooth fairy exists (Harriet Hall).

A much likely place for nerves to get hung up are where they bend around large joints or pass from one tissue type to another through an anatomical grommet hole. Seems to me that once a nerve branch goes into a muscle, it pretty much doesn't have to "slide" anymore, although I could be wrong about that, not having dissected any "muscle" nerves, ever.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:43 PM   #157
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 21,870
Thanks: 2,651
Thanked 5,452 Times in 2,477 Posts
Default

About post 155, Ole, ... is that not what is desired by body builders? Is that not what helps make muscles big and strong? Ripping them slightly so they glue up in there and stick to themselves better? Or maybe I'm just terribly naive about what goes on at a mesoderm level with all the little sarcomeres in bundles and levers and things.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:44 PM   #158
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Ole, have YOU ever seen me say anything that refutes the existence of adhesions? Of course they exist.

MY point is, that if someone is going to claim to treat adhesions, they need to be demonstrated to be related to the complaint being addressed, they need to be able to be FOUND in order to be treated - by the practitioner. Then finally, there needs to be some reliable way to show that those adhesions actually changed with the treatment applied.

Yes, it is semantics - of course it is. We are always communicating with patients, with doctors and colleagues, and it is imperative that we use the most scientific and reasonable presentation of what actually is most likely. And that requires accuracy. English is my second language as well, and it is difficult at times to express precisely what I mean.

Sorry that you see it as nitpicking, but if we cannot begin to agree on what we are talking about, then we are in trouble.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 09:47 PM   #159
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

PS: one of those studies shows a THREE WEEK immobilisation - how does one extrapolate THAT to a normal population?
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 10:41 PM   #160
oljoha
Senior Member
 
oljoha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 276
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

@Bas:
Quote:
no way to actually establish many of the adhesions claimed by some practitioners
Then "establish" here means "clinically detect".

Don't claim to treat adhesions anymore. I tell them I probably treat the nervous system. I don't yet know really how or why it works - but it seems to work well. Having the option to go light with the reasoning that I am affecting nerves in the skin is something I do quite often now. I'll use any trick in the book to get the nerves to "let go" or desensitize them. That includes physical and verbal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bas View Post
PS: one of those studies shows a THREE WEEK immobilisation - how does one extrapolate THAT to a normal population?
I don't know. I was only demonstrating the existence of adhesions in tissues. I saw one study with similar changes to the trapezius muscle in people working in front of computers who were in pain. But I can't find it again. Not that I've looked too hard recently.

@Diane: Ad bodybuilders - I'm not sure what the current theory is. I just seem to remember that why muscles grew was a mystery last time I checked.

You said "it (a nerve) pretty much doesn't have to "slide" anymore" once inside a muscle. I'd think there are things sliding around the nerves.

Nevertheless let me put it this way:

1. Adhesions can form in a muscle.
2. I do think it's plausible that we can break adhesions with manual techniques.
3. I don't think they (the adhesions) are a cause of pain - but I believe they can contribute.
4. I find it plausible that they might relate to ROM.
5. There are many many other things that also relate to ROM.
6. When I treat the sensitized area using ART I get:

6.a. Skin stretch which causes brain activity.
6.b. Muscle stretch which causes brain activity.
6.c. Active movement which causes brain activity.

7. For the brain this is a learning experience and hopefully it finds everything non threatening and decides
to desensitize and / or release (that one's for you Barrett) the muscles allowing greater ROM.
8. The treatment it self may also impact on the health of the tissues as it is somewhat similar to being
exercised. Because we know that with longstanding pain the health of the tissues suffer.

I'm off to bed.
__________________
Ole Reidar Johansen, Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche

Last edited by oljoha; 14-09-2008 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Hit submit too early
oljoha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2013, 03:12 AM   #161
Rick Carter
Senior Member
 
Rick Carter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
Thanks: 87
Thanked 130 Times in 66 Posts
Default

This is part two of four parts, Part 1 appeared in the Clinical Bulletin of Myofascial Therapy, 2(1): 5-23, 1997 I have Part 1 in hard copy and parts 2-4 in pdf. I used to utilize ART. As I continued my journey I discovered that Dr. Leahy took it from Dr. Mock. In the ART manuals and other materials I have not seen credit given to anyone or any references to others. IMO ART is trigger point therapy as can be seen by comparing the ART charts with those of Travel and Simons. The nerve entrapment diagrams in many cases are identical to those from Tunnel Syndromes, again without credit being given.

I found ART effective, it is often a painful technique. ART to the subscapularis and psoas seems especially painful.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Myofascial Release Part 2.pdf (4.04 MB, 37 views)
Rick Carter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Rick Carter For This Useful Post:
tonyf315 (20-04-2013)
Old 12-10-2013, 05:30 AM   #162
tykraus7
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

My first question is: how are these adhesions assessed in the clinic? Besides just a loss of ROM?
tykraus7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 08:58 PM   #163
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default ART

Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum. I am not sure how I stumbled across soma simple this past week, but glad I did as there is some interesting discussions!

I have been practicing ART for about 5 years so I thought I might be able to add a little to this thread and hopefully learn a lot more!

I agree with much of what Oljoha is posting on this thread.

I am surprised by how much the 92 Threkheld study is being tossed around on this thread and others. Has it been replicated? My biggest complaint is that the 24 to 115 kg of force needed to remodel CT that is being cited from the study is the force needed to deform healthy CT. The tissue remodeling proposed with ART is on unhealthy/scarred CT which is known to weaker and therefore may require much less force for remodeling.

I am curious what others here think of the following............ Achilles tendonosis patients with a palpable and visual nodule that is reduced in size palpably and visually with ART/manual therapy. This seems to be at least anecdotal evidence that unhealthy CT can be remodeled with manual therapy.

I had a better written post before this one that I accidentally deleted. Hopefully it still makes some sense!
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 09:04 PM   #164
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Weston, how do you know that scarred CT is weaker than healthy CT. Can you show a reference for that?
How can you tell CT is scarred?

It seems you disagree with Oljoha as it pertains to the actual way ART works, if you are still talking about CT as the tissue of focus.

About that anecdotal evidence: how do you know it was CT causing that AT nodule?
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:04 PM   #165
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Hi Bas,

Are you arguing that a degenerated tendon is as strong as a healthy tendon that is not degenerated?

You can palpate and see the nodule in the case of achilles tendonosis.

I do not disagree with Oljoha but it seems the only point of contention with his last post is number 2. "I do think it's plausible that we can break adhesions with manual techniques." So, I am addressing this point only.

Anecdotal evidence.....achilles tendon itself has a nodule that you can see and palpate. The nodule is under the skin as the skin slides on top of it.
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:34 PM   #166
Mark Hollis
Senior Moment
 
Mark Hollis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 40
Posts: 417
Thanks: 317
Thanked 475 Times in 192 Posts
Default

Quote:
I am curious what others here think of the following............ Achilles tendonosis patients with a palpable and visual nodule that is reduced in size palpably and visually with ART/manual therapy. This seems to be at least anecdotal evidence that unhealthy CT can be remodeled with manual therapy.
Under microscopic studies part of the reason there is an area of widened diameter (lets get rid of the nodule word for starters) is due to increased fluid within the region due to the increased hydrophilic nature of the different form of extracellular matrix being created by the tenocytes at the region. Do you propose that ART is squeezing out the fluid? Altering the hydophilic properties of the ECM? If we're to start at an anecdotal evidence level of discussion then what plausible, and thus verifiable, action of biological or physiological activity are you proposing in conjunction with your action? This is before even going into what biologically/physiologically plausible rationale are you proposing for 'smoothing out bumpy bits'? Or how that relates to alteration in pain perception and changes in functional motor programme activity? What biological or physiological activities may be concommitantly occurring that created the environmental demands that the tenocytes reacted to by producing a different form of tendon? Knowing tissue demands and the duration and intensity necessary to initiate altered cellular activity long term would these environmental demands be better altered by a client initiable form of activity and movement than a 3rd party physical intervention?

Why comes before how in my dictionary. (Hence my use of ? more than !)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The Pain of Tendinopathy.pdf (395.2 KB, 13 views)
__________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec

Last edited by Mark Hollis; 07-11-2013 at 10:41 PM.
Mark Hollis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Hollis For This Useful Post:
Bas Asselbergs (08-11-2013)
Old 08-11-2013, 12:15 AM   #167
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

No, I am not arguing that.
You are arguing that you can reliably determine the presence of a degenerated tendon.
You can't, with your hands.
And you can't simply say you changed CT with your hands either - see post hoc ergo propter hoc logical error.

I like what Mark put forward there as well.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
Tirving (08-11-2013)
Old 08-11-2013, 06:44 AM   #168
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Mark,

Good questions.

I agree that part of the reason for the widened diameter is fluid. Another part of the reason maybe a thickening of the actual tendon though, yes? I had not thought about ART squeezing out the fluid. Do you think this would be beneficial?

In regards to proposed physiological action......my thoughts are starting an inflammatory process that would help the degenerated tendon begin to heal. Does this make sense?

In regards to the rationale for smoothing out bumpy bits.........my thoughts are a tendon with less degenerated tissue will send "better" afferent information to the brain. Does this make sense?

In regards to activities that caused the tendon to degenerate.........If I am understanding your question right this could be any number of things. I would think mostly some activity that required to much load for the tendon's capacity over time.

In regards to the client altering their form of activity as opposed to 3rd party intervention..... I am not sure I fully understand your question. I think you are asking about eccentric exercise in this achilles tendonopathy example?


Bas,

I don't think I ever said I could reliably determine a degenerated tendon via palpation.

I am fully aware of post hoc ergo propter hoc logiacal error........Why I started the sentence with this only anecdotal.
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 02:12 PM   #169
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 1,622
Thanked 1,125 Times in 506 Posts
Default

Weston, you say that you can palpate a nodule in a tendinosis:
Quote:
Achilles tendonosis patients with a palpable and visual nodule that is reduced in size palpably and visually with ART/manual therapy. This seems to be at least anecdotal evidence that unhealthy CT can be remodeled with manual therapy.
Did you come to the diagnosis of "tendinosis" or "degenerated tendon"? Or did the patient come with that referral?
If you diagnosed it, how did you come to that conclusion?

And lastly, it is NOT anecdotal evidence that CT is remodelled - it is anecdotal evidence that a change in tissue may have occurred. What do you think made the nodule go away? Sudden tissue reorganization?
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 06:23 PM   #170
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Bas,

I am saying that I can palpate a nodule or increased diameter in the achilles tendon of a subset of patients with achilles tendonopathy. Have you ever seen or felt this widened diameter in an achilles tendon?

I come to the Dx of tendonopathy. Typical sx pattern of achilles tendonopathy. I wrote tendonosis here to denote that we were talking about a degenerated tendon instead of the inflammatory process of tendinitis. We can not know 100% for sure if the tendon is actually degenerated without histopathological exam but tendonosis seems to be more common. At least that it was I am getting out of the literature. Do you agree?

I agree, anecdotal evidence that a change in tissue has occurred. Is it possible that this change it tissue was in part CT remodeling?
I am not sure why the nodule goes away.....maybe an inflammatory process? Can tissue reorganization happen that fast?
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 12:12 AM   #171
docjohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 117
Thanks: 5
Thanked 32 Times in 17 Posts
Default

one of my favorite examinations from chiro school was PNS class and the question was simply, "there is a cheeseburger in front of you, eat it and from a peripheral nervous system perspective describe what happens from grasp to exit". Made me think of the mechanism behind things and being a being in health care, it helps with also being a raving skeptic.
Weston, sit back and really think about the treatment you performed on the achilles region, and ask yourself the question, "what did I do"? From hands on to hands off, what was the mechanism of your treatment from a neuromusculoskeletal standpoint.
Then let us know about your "theories" behind ART and what you really think makes it tic...
PS... ART certified pre Y2K
docjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 05:38 PM   #172
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

docjohn,

I have sat back and thought about the mechanism behind ART and I doubt some of the proposed mechanisms which is why I am here asking questions. What do you believe to be the mechanism of action of ART?
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 09:48 PM   #173
Weston
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Mark Hollis,

I just read the article you posted, The Pain of Tendonopathy. Good article, thank you for sharing it.

It seems that the article leaves open the possibility that a subset of patients with achilles tendonopathy may have symptoms due to changes in structure. From the article, "To be a practical theory, tendon pain must be explained across the range of clinical presentations. These presentations may be a combined result of changes in structure, biochemical levels and cell function that interact to cause pain."

I think the last sentence of the conclusion sums it up quite nicely......"Importantly for clinicians, tendon pain is complex and requires thorough assessment of both musculoskeletal and neural contributors as well as excellent clinical reasoning to account for nociceptive input from local tendon pathology as well as potential central mechanisms."

Local tendon pathology could be a degenerated tendon. Is it possible that this degenerated tissue could be remodelled via manual therapy? Do you have any evidence to the contrary? I am aware of the negative proof logical fallacy and is not what I am looking for with this question.
Weston is offline   Reply With Quote
Post New Thread  Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Let's Talk About Periodization Jason Silvernail The Performance Lab 62 09-02-2014 05:34 PM
Amazing talk Barrett Dorko Range of Motion 0 29-11-2010 12:30 PM
Baby talk Barrett Dorko Range of Motion 4 31-05-2010 05:57 AM
Talk Show flaviovitor The Performance Lab 8 25-09-2009 02:41 PM
Does my Body talk? bernard General Discussion 5 16-04-2007 06:59 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2013