CT Let's Talk About ART

[oljoha]

Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail

DOMS

Ole-
Whether the word is "selective" or "selectively" - how do we know that the muscle is a special case for this sort of effect and not the skin, or nerve tissue, or blood vessels?

Ok - English - although I think I'm pretty darn good at it - is not my mother tongue.

Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail;

I think if Ole was proposing to specifically diagnose the location of these adhesions, then we could press him to show us the manual examination, but that's not what I'm reading. Ole, is this correct? I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion on this issue.

Correct. Got to tackle one subject at a time. There is no need to discuss diagnostic measures if we have yet to establish agreement on 1. the existence of adhesions and that they 2. actually can contribute to pain.

I'm here because discussing a topic requires you to think about it and learn more about it. And I've learned a lot. I've had good success with using ART so softly that I'm just barely stretching skin - especially on the "fibromyalgia" crowd. So I'm well aware there is much else going on when I do what I do. Other times though I really have to work hard before getting any results (I usually start out with "medium" pressure).

It does however get annoying when people want to argue language and syntax. It's like some are scouring for grammatical errors and typos. And what is especially annoying is being attributed standpoints because someone assumes that's where you're coming from.

[Diane]

but for the sake of discussing adhesions NOT pain I will disregard the nervous system for now.

Maybe you can rule out the nervous system, but chances are pretty high that unless you sneak past skin somehow, the nervous system won't be ruling out you...
But I see you do actually go light, so you can disregard me too if you wish.

[oljoha]

Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko

I'm pretty sure that microtrauma has been completely ruled out as concurrent with DOMS.

Well I'll be darned then. Cool. I've learned something new. Excellent. It won't be the first time my world view has been shattered. It just makes things more interesting.

Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko

Though I recently read on the Supertraining listserve that DOMS may reasonably considered an appropriate adaptive response to repetitive and sufficiently forceful contraction, its underlying deep model within the muscle remains a mystery.

Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko

Any thoughts on ruling the skin in or out? Isn't this kind of important when describing the supposed effect of a technique that impacts it?

Skin is in. I'm on board. I have been for a year or so now. But - I'm not quite willing to let the other structures go yet - there are nerves in there too. Yes Barrett it is important when describing the supposed effect of a technique. However - like I just stated in the post above (unless somebody is posting while I'm writing this) this discussion is getting nowhere if people don't accept the existence of adhesions.

[oljoha]

Originally Posted by Diane

Maybe you can rule out the nervous system, but chances are pretty high that unless you sneak past skin somehow, the nervous system won't be ruling out you...
But I see you do actually go light, so you can disregard me too if you wish.

I won't disregard you Stuff you've written is definitively part of my current world view. Pain is all nerves and brain.

Maybe I should ask you a question. If we accept for about 53 seconds (or so) that adhesions can occur in muscles. Would you consider them as something that possibly could annoy nerves inside the muscle and somehow lead to sensitization?

[oljoha]

Here's the post with evidence of adhesions

Again to avoid being hounded. Let's stick to establishing the existence of adhesions first.

[Diane]

Hi Ole,

If we accept for about 53 seconds (or so) that adhesions can occur in muscles. Would you consider them as something that possibly could annoy nerves inside the muscle and somehow lead to sensitization?

Sure, just like I'd accept (for the sake of argument, but possibly for only fewer than 10 seconds) that the tooth fairy might prefer the tooth in a baggie instead of a face tissue, however, it doesn't mean the tooth fairy exists (Harriet Hall).

A much likely place for nerves to get hung up are where they bend around large joints or pass from one tissue type to another through an anatomical grommet hole. Seems to me that once a nerve branch goes into a muscle, it pretty much doesn't have to "slide" anymore, although I could be wrong about that, not having dissected any "muscle" nerves, ever.

[Diane]

About post 155, Ole, ... is that not what is desired by body builders? Is that not what helps make muscles big and strong? Ripping them slightly so they glue up in there and stick to themselves better? Or maybe I'm just terribly naive about what goes on at a mesoderm level with all the little sarcomeres in bundles and levers and things.

[Bas Asselbergs]

Ole, have YOU ever seen me say anything that refutes the existence of adhesions? Of course they exist.

MY point is, that if someone is going to claim to treat adhesions, they need to be demonstrated to be related to the complaint being addressed, they need to be able to be FOUND in order to be treated - by the practitioner. Then finally, there needs to be some reliable way to show that those adhesions actually changed with the treatment applied.

Yes, it is semantics - of course it is. We are always communicating with patients, with doctors and colleagues, and it is imperative that we use the most scientific and reasonable presentation of what actually is most likely. And that requires accuracy. English is my second language as well, and it is difficult at times to express precisely what I mean.

Sorry that you see it as nitpicking, but if we cannot begin to agree on what we are talking about, then we are in trouble.

[Bas Asselbergs]

PS: one of those studies shows a THREE WEEK immobilisation - how does one extrapolate THAT to a normal population?

[oljoha]

@Bas:

no way to actually establish many of the adhesions claimed by some practitioners

Then "establish" here means "clinically detect".

Don't claim to treat adhesions anymore. I tell them I probably treat the nervous system. I don't yet know really how or why it works - but it seems to work well. Having the option to go light with the reasoning that I am affecting nerves in the skin is something I do quite often now. I'll use any trick in the book to get the nerves to "let go" or desensitize them. That includes physical and verbal.

Originally Posted by Bas

PS: one of those studies shows a THREE WEEK immobilisation - how does one extrapolate THAT to a normal population?

I don't know. I was only demonstrating the existence of adhesions in tissues. I saw one study with similar changes to the trapezius muscle in people working in front of computers who were in pain. But I can't find it again. Not that I've looked too hard recently.

@Diane: Ad bodybuilders - I'm not sure what the current theory is. I just seem to remember that why muscles grew was a mystery last time I checked.

You said "it (a nerve) pretty much doesn't have to "slide" anymore" once inside a muscle. I'd think there are things sliding around the nerves.

Nevertheless let me put it this way:

1. Adhesions can form in a muscle.
2. I do think it's plausible that we can break adhesions with manual techniques.
3. I don't think they (the adhesions) are a cause of pain - but I believe they can contribute.
4. I find it plausible that they might relate to ROM.
5. There are many many other things that also relate to ROM.
6. When I treat the sensitized area using ART I get:

6.a. Skin stretch which causes brain activity.
6.b. Muscle stretch which causes brain activity.
6.c. Active movement which causes brain activity.

7. For the brain this is a learning experience and hopefully it finds everything non threatening and decides
to desensitize and / or release (that one's for you Barrett) the muscles allowing greater ROM.
8. The treatment it self may also impact on the health of the tissues as it is somewhat similar to being
exercised. Because we know that with longstanding pain the health of the tissues suffer.

I'm off to bed.

[Rick Carter]

This is part two of four parts, Part 1 appeared in the Clinical Bulletin of Myofascial Therapy, 2(1): 5-23, 1997 I have Part 1 in hard copy and parts 2-4 in pdf. I used to utilize ART. As I continued my journey I discovered that Dr. Leahy took it from Dr. Mock. In the ART manuals and other materials I have not seen credit given to anyone or any references to others. IMO ART is trigger point therapy as can be seen by comparing the ART charts with those of Travel and Simons. The nerve entrapment diagrams in many cases are identical to those from Tunnel Syndromes, again without credit being given.

I found ART effective, it is often a painful technique. ART to the subscapularis and psoas seems especially painful.