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Clinical Reasoning Typical cases are discussed there. The cases are brought by practioners.

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Old 21-12-2006, 12:40 AM   #1
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Default Do-It-Yourself Ideomotion

Hello Soma Simplers

I have had a sore knee for a couple of years - had surgery a year ago - and some of the features of the pattern of pain/discomfort makes me wonder if ideomotion would be helpful. I've scoured this site and my understanding is that patient ideomotion occurs in response to Simple Contact from the therapist. I don't know any PTs or osteopaths who practise this approach so I'm wondering how I could do it myself. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

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Old 22-12-2006, 08:10 AM   #2
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Pete,

Where are you located?

I don't know anything about Simple Contact, but if it's therapeutic ideomotion you're looking for, look no further! It's already built into your physiology. It just means musculoskeletal movement directed by the non-conscious (more fundamental neural processes than your thinking mind) meant to correct postural imbalances or dynamic local discrepencies. All you really need to do is get your big thinking mind out of the way and let your body do what it needs to do to heal. Primarily, it's social pressures that prevent humans from doing it naturally.

Have you ever seen a cat lay down and start stretching around on it's back? That's therapeutic ideomotion.

Just be very careful. After years of poor postural and movement habits, you're bound to have some pretty weak muscles and some very adhered connective tissue. If you really start moving into the problem area quickly and/or with some real energy behind it, you may easily pull some stuff.

The key word Pete, is "feel". This is where you start to bring your conscious mind into concert with the unconscious holding pattern, and hopefully resolution. By the way, it takes a little while...no instant gratification.

Good luck!
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Old 22-12-2006, 04:27 PM   #3
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Hi Chris

Thanks for the reply! Judging from the number of views of my post I was beginning to wonder if I'd somehow asked an unanswerable question!

Could you say a bit more about what I should do - I take it you don't mean the kind of stretching that I've done in the past? I'm working through 'Somatics' by Thomas Hanna and I'm becoming more aware of my body, but I wouldn't describe the movements I'm doing as 'non-conscious'.

I'm based in the UK, by the way.

Best wishes

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Old 22-12-2006, 05:02 PM   #4
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You can come at it from a starting point of volitional movement. While you're doing your volitional movement, try to feel what's going on inside your body. This means your mind is focusing on the internal sensation of what you're doing, not whether you're doing it like in the picture or wondering what to make for dinner or how mean your mother-in-law is or anything else. At some point during your movement, you may feel your body want to move in a way that deviates from the volitional movement, because there is some imbalance in there (probably originating in the CNS, doesn't matter practically speaking) keeping you from being comfortable in your movement. Let this happen. Just get out of the way and let your body move the way it wants/needs to.

This is an innate, automatic process that used to happen as naturally as breathing when you were a very young child. At some point, while growing up, you (and all the rest of us humans) consciously stopped it due to some social situation. Maybe you didn't want to look weird or maybe you thought a parent would react negatively...whatever. After the first time, you had set a precedent. After the tenth time, you had made a habit of stopping corrective ideomotion. Now you just need to get it back on track. Feel, feel feel! This is the key. Be careful and be patient.

Knees can be tough to resolve and slow to heal. Keep moving. Never become sedentary, things just snowball from there. If I were you, I would consider finding a really good Tai Chi instructor, but that's just me. There are other ways.

Are you anywhere near Sussex?
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Old 22-12-2006, 06:55 PM   #5
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I think it was a knee problem that drove Feldenkrais to discover, then develop his whole approach to sensorimotor learning.
The brain can unlearn and eventually move through pain inhibition. I wouldn't worry about hurting yourself, that is not if your movement is truly ideomotor.
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Old 22-12-2006, 10:34 PM   #6
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Interesting fact about Feldenkrais. I didn't know that.

I think some delicacy is prudent with Pete going into this on his own. Volitional movement and ideomotion blend quite seamlessly at some point. Facilitating corrective ideomotor movement in a client in a treatment room is not entirely the same as trying to tap into it by yourself, at least in my experience. Once you become conscious of the movement, there will be the option of adding force volitionally if a "barrier" (resistance at outside range of motion) is engaged. This is where you can hurt yourself if you try to do any forcing. It takes a little while to become proficient at monitoring your own internal landscape. Once it becomes habitual, however, I think ideomotion becomes just another normal body function again.

So Pete, Diane's right. It's the movement that "just happens" that you want to allow. When it comes, just let it happen and don't add anything into it and it will be nothing but therapeutic.
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Old 22-12-2006, 10:50 PM   #7
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Chris,

For someone who's never taken a course you're remarkably astute at describing the nature of this movement therapy. I often say that I'm not certain why people come to my course. If they read and think and sense as I (and you) suggest most of this will simply fall into place.

In my experience, knee pain often contains a good deal of mesodermal irritation and problems that require healing or repair, thus ideomotion is unlikely to help as much as it might elsewhere.

There's a subtlety to correction that few appreciate early in their use of ideomotion, and a slowness that often requires a patience not inherent to manual care or many "training" therapies.

Just thought I'd mention that.
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Old 22-12-2006, 10:59 PM   #8
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Motion is lotion as we know. And "Hurt" does not equal "Harm" says Butler.. I support Chris's elucidation above. Of course, if it's me, I never "force" anything, even if it's an option, in me or in anyone/anything else. (Well, maybe a lid off a jar, something like that.. rarely..)

Here's a little trick I use sometimes to get things moving in my own body:
If:
1. one considers one's own body as the sum total of cubic inches or centimeters it has, and
2. permits movement to "find" and "move into" each and every one of those units of mass (it's easier if you visualize them as round, like ball bearings, squishy and slidey on each other, and realize that letting movement arrive at every ball bearing will take some time), and
3. permits movement to "travel" from one unit to some other(s), close by or far away, maybe several different places at once,
4. one's conscious awareness will quickly and busily become an observer/watcher/"feeler" of the movement and will more readily give up being producer of the movement.

Also, start with movement in all the parts of your body that do not currently hurt, and let the movement flow into the cranky part subsequently; your hindbrain will know when the time is right, so just stay out of its way. There will be less "threat" read into any possible stirring up of nociceptive input by the hindbrain that way. Generally, less speed will mean more perception, more learning of the important kind and more un-learning of the inhibition/pain output.
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Last edited by Diane; 22-12-2006 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 22-12-2006, 11:30 PM   #9
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Pete, do you find that, on the verge of dropping off to sleep, you have some amazing images appear? If you let them appear and 'watch' them in this nonconscious realm, it is quite intriguing. (Maybe I'm just weird, nothing new).

I do the same with self-initiation of ideomotion; simply close eyes and whatever appears, I 'follow' the images. The body just tags along, happily. Not huge movements, but small range and often repetitive for some moments.
I find it easier to do to myself, than to patients, because I know what I am feeling.

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Old 23-12-2006, 05:20 AM   #10
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Barrett,
Thank you. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to discover (re-discover) this phenomenon. I am constantly trying to figure it out completely. I think it's a big deal.

Quote:
In my experience, knee pain often contains a good deal of mesodermal irritation and problems that require healing or repair, thus ideomotion is unlikely to help as much as it might elsewhere.
Barrett, how did you determine this?

Happy holidays everybody. See you in '07.
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Old 23-12-2006, 03:07 PM   #11
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Thank you Chris, Diane Barrett and Nari (Hi Nari, I remember you from the Rehab Edge board

1. Quite a few people have looked at my knee (one from the inside!) and the consensus seems to be that it is perfectly sound, with the exception of some minor crepitus.

2. The pattern of symptoms makes me think there may be some minor cartilage damage but other things suggest that there is also some 'nervous system' type thing going on, eg I'm more aware of the discomfort when wearing long trousers, but fine in shorts; a relatively heavy weights session (mini squats and deadlifts) makes it feel much better afterwards and on the next day - as if the exertion tires something out, or relaxes it or something (can you tell that I'm not a physio ?)

3. So, I'm doing sensible mesodermal approaches - gradually increasing the amount that I do (found 'Explain Pain' very helpful in that regard - and thank you Barrett for the point about being patient: I do need someone who knows about this stuff to remind me of that - I used to think that all soft tissue healed in 6 weeks but that hasn't been the case with my knee) and doing lower limb and core strength work. However, SomaSimple has made me realise that there are other approaches, which I think might help sort out a nervous system which has got a bit 'tangled up'. Hence the question re ideomotion. And the reading of Thomas Hanna and Peter Levine.

4. I've had 3 experiences which might count as ideomotion: involuntary jerks of both legs, usually when I'm in bed. A rather odd 'singing in tongues' experience 20 years ago (which certainly met the 'surprise' criterion for ideomotion!). And, recently, occasions when I've tried to let my body lead me, and found myself doing unusual stretches/making unusual shapes and feeling somehow refreshed afterwards - gave me a subtle sense that my body had somehow woken up and had a mind of its own. I'm not sure whether this experience is true ideomotion as it still feels as though my mind is in control, or at least giving permission once the idea for a particular movement occurs. And I can't seem to make it happen when I want it to (hence my original post). But it does sound similar to what you are suggesting, Nari.

Thank you again for your insights (I live in Sheffield, Chris - but I'm definitely going to find a good Tai Chi class in the new year)
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Old 23-12-2006, 09:26 PM   #12
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Hi Pete

Lots of clues there: pain that hasn't resolved with time; wearing long trousers is annoying (sensory); temporary relief with mechanical work all point to a sensitive nervous system, as per Butler. I suspect it is likely that your pain is due entirely to sensitivity, and not anything mechanical. I have had crepitus for 30 years and my knees are pretty faultless!

If you are having difficulty with ideomotor expression (and lots of folk do!), stick with what Butler suggests in his book, with neurodynamic movements and keep on "practising" nonconscious movement.

As you know, it is difficult to advise someone online; so we are limited with advice, and can really only offer suggestions of a broad nature.

Tai Chi sounds ideal, and there is plenty of evidence that it is therapeutic in the neural sense. (See Bernard's thread on Tai Chi recently posted here).
Keep telling yourself that you cannot harm your knee, and the pain is a nuisance but not a danger signal.

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Old 23-12-2006, 10:26 PM   #13
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Here's a picture of the saphenous nerve. You can see part of it, called the infrapatellar branch, sweeping across from the inside side over the front of the knee. If your knee pain is in that general area, the infrapatellar branch of this nerve may be experiencing a "tunnel syndrome" (some degree of entrapment) and be chronically sensitized (common). You might be able to stretch the skin over it gently for longish periods of time, in various directions, or put a piece of tape over it for a few days, which may help. You can do your movement work with tape on. In fact you can do your movement work to test to see how effectively the tape is managing the desensitization of the nerve, or if you need to reposition it.

If you find the right direction (most pain-relieving) to tug your skin/apply the tape, and can leave it on for 4 or 5 days, you might even be able to help your nervous system get over itself, i.e., stop hurting. In any event, there is no harm in trying out these ideas - they are perfectly benign.
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Old 24-12-2006, 01:29 PM   #14
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Thanks Nari and Diane!

I have a couple of questions:

(1) What is the nerve that goes down the outside of the knee?
(2) I understand from this site that strength does not relate to pain. What do you think the mechanism is that makes my knee feel better after working out with weights? ie, what is the workout doing to the nerves?

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Old 24-12-2006, 02:54 PM   #15
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In answer to #2, I presume that you are drawing blood flow to the parched nervous support and that you're reducing the mechanical deformation you happen to possess - in other words, you're lucky.

What we know is that the strength growing within the associated contractile tissue isn't the reason you feel better; it's the corrective manuever. A more effective therapy would ensue that the movements you do were more appropriate for your specific problem. No one can give you that, you have to allow it to be revealed.
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Old 24-12-2006, 04:15 PM   #16
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In addition to Barrett's remarks above, which I of course agree with, I will mention that I think strengthening has a modulatory effect on pain in some cases- you are telling your brain it is OK to exercise and that your knee won't explode, and you are essentially reducing the threat that your pain poses to your brain.
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Old 24-12-2006, 08:01 PM   #17
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Here is a picture of the main nerve on the outside of the knee, the common fibular. Everything that has been said about nerves/nervous system to this point pertains to this nerve too.

Bear in mind that there are many branches, very thin, too numerous to name, that they go everywhere into all the mesoderm, including those big vessels you see around the knee, up into the skin, and into the big nerves themselves so that the brain knows what the environment is for the big nerves.
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Old 24-12-2006, 08:33 PM   #18
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This thought plagues me:

If the nervous tissue is everywhere, and if doesn't make any difference if the irritation is in a large nerve, or a large amount of nervous tissue or even, ultimately, the actual location(s) of the irritation - why do we need to know all this stuff about what nerve goes where and what it's called?
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Old 24-12-2006, 08:48 PM   #19
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Why do we need to know anything about anything?

I think if we want to study anything in detail, it's more important to know names and places and origins of nerves than to memorize ligaments, and all the directions and degrees in which joints articulate, origins and insertions and names of muscles, as the mesodermalists do..

Having said that, I'm less interested in the names of nerves than I am in being able to visualize them, knowing where they come from embryologically and evolutionarily, what happens to the info they convey, the overall pattern they take physically throughout the body, how they get up to the skin, where I can get at them most easily.
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Old 24-12-2006, 09:50 PM   #20
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Diane,

I agree that this is variously desireable and appropriate knowledge, but I'm also wondering if we can prioritize its usefullness. As you say, the names don't mean much, but given that the nervous tissue all terminates in the skin, and in every part of it, does it make a difference in the clinic to know where the major trunks run close to the skin?

Isn't the nature of the cellular structure of the skin (membranous tautness specifically) more important when it comes to touch?
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Old 24-12-2006, 10:29 PM   #21
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I like to work with something in mind, a visual is best for my particular brain. I like to know where their entrapments are most likely to be. I like to picture unloading them. That's just me.

I don't know what's important about skin, other than it is the place where the brain feels its environment, and I'm part of its environment. I think skin likely has "behavior" at a cellular level that is a function of the nervous sytem's autonomic outflow. I like when the behavior or movement in anything from skin to whole organism changes for the better. I like "feeling" that.

I think you can relax Barrett, you don't need to know any of the minutiae stuff unless it's important to you for one reason or another.
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Old 24-12-2006, 11:59 PM   #22
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I think what Barrett is saying, from my perspective, is why does anyone need to know the minutiae stuff.
If we acknowledge that the nervous system is fractal in nature and that the location of tension can't be specifically localized in one particular branch of any particular nerve, then the point of going over it seems...moot.

For my part I know all sorts of stuff about anatomy and muculoskeletal stuff because it's part of my job to screen for and treat problems that are more musculoskeletal than they are NEUROmusculoskeletal. If indeed someone else is doing this and we trust that person (which i'm not sure we should) than truly that sort of information isn't useful.

For treating people in persistent pain without obvious pathology (a large portion of my caseload and maybe 100% of some others'), I think knowing that sort of nerve minutiae isn't helpful, if we acknowledge the fractal nature of the nervous system and that any soft-tissue manual therapy stuff we're doing is really about trial and error and partial unloading of tissue and...luck. So the placement of the saphenous nerve may not be very useful. Either a particular manual unloading technique works or it doesn't. Certainly I can think of things I've tried that really worked for people (in particular I saved a guy with shoulder ACJ 'arthrosis' from surgery with a taping technique), but I ascribe this sort of thing to luck, not knowing where a certain nerve travels. I mean, if moving perpendicular to the nerve doesn't relieve pain, don't you try another angle? Isn't it trial and error regardless of the location of superficial trunks?
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Old 25-12-2006, 12:37 AM   #23
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Hello, if we're going to be ectodermalist, we could give ourselves the gift of information about what is and what isn't ectodermal, at least. If we choose. Then we can share that info with others who might be interested. In the end, we are united that pain is about nerves/nervous system, and so is freedom from it. (Personally, I'm tired of working and toiling in the dark.)

Please be my guests and remain oblivious to nerves and their needs and wants.
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Old 25-12-2006, 02:19 AM   #24
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Diane,

I truly enjoy the fact that so much can be known, and I feel we have a responsibility to know as much as is possible, but, unless I start cutting on it, it's also nice that the absolute necessity to know isn't there to the extent needed for the mesodermal problems (and fantasies) therapists are used to.

True story: I now tell my students that what they could know they can read following your posts here, and that your generosity and insight is the greatest gift currently on the web.

From the perspective of someone trying to teach workshops effectively, the message about fractals and ubiquity and unpredictability Jason mentioned is the most compelling and least threatening. Intricate anatomy scares them, and they start out scared enough, in my opinion.

As you've taught me, ectoderm needs to be communicated with and not done unto. This means that its genius plays a roll - thankfully. It sure takes some of the pressure off of me.

I admire your persistence and dedication, of course.
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Old 25-12-2006, 02:47 AM   #25
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I think you are all correct.

While the fractal nature of the nervous system and the chaotic nature of the body make it impossible to predict how the minutae is impacted by our touch spefically, the more we know about what we are handling the better. For one, DNM is dependant on exteroception and decreasing nociception through an applied force to the skin in a non-volitional (not non-moving) patient. You wouldn't hope to accomplish this effect on a sore neck directly through the toes, for example. In the most general sense knowing the local road maps in their relation to the skin is quite helpful if not necessary. You can trial and error your way through the process and, as Jason points out, you do this to a certain degree every time. However, knowing generally where and how the local neural structures meet the skin helps you find a starting place.

While ideomotion, being interoceptive, is OK to go into pain if the characteristics of correction are present, DNM is not. Since DNM is exteroceptive it must remain non-nociceptive. A non-nociceptive input is applied and the nervous system does the rest. The minutae make this a bit easier to accomplish. I'm also convinced that ideomotion is an example of an executive function of the frontal lobes, which I hope to expand on later in another thread. That means you can get where you need in any number of ways, even through nociception, which makes such minutae irrelevant to ideomotion.

By the way, I can account for Barrett's statement of what he tells his classes. You were a popular reference Diane!

And Jason, congrats on your knew designation I see under your name. Is there a PhDHPSG?
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Old 25-12-2006, 03:18 AM   #26
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I can't disagree with any of what is being said - I just want to say that I like learning this stuff. I like telling patients about nerves, as part of a briefing on why pain exists and what might be done about it. Concrete thinkers do better thinking about something physical. People in pain are fearful, and seem to do better when they can imagine something physical in their bodies that can be allieviated. They seem relieved that these things don't show up on xray but that they exist, and that someone thinks they aren't crazy after all..

To me, in cases of persistent pain, the nerves and naming them and knowing where they live and teaching patients about them and how to take care of them, makes more sense than letting them them worry or reinforcing any worry that their mesodermal whatzit might be torn or some other whatzit is bulging, etc.

For me, the physical nerves are a nice physical bridge to get people away from thinking about "stuff" (especially broken stuff) toward getting them to think about function. My treatment experience is that patients are happy to learn they have nerves, that the nerves have names (are real), that treating them/their environs will likely help them oxygenate better, that moving will help oxygenate them better. It gives patients an clue about what's inside them that they can have an influence over, how to play a role in helping improve, something to bear in mind when they are doing movement therapy, a reason to move even if there's some discomfort in it. Little touchstones for their cognition. If they see a picture from an anatomy book it must be real, right? Especially if someone has pointed it out to them and has explained a bit about pain. It's the best way I've found to help people get off the mental square they've been stuck on.

I don't think anything of what we know or learn is actually necessary for good and effective human primate social grooming.. after all, lots of crazy constructs are out there along with lots that aren't so crazy, and the patients either get better or don't, just the same. Besides, as humans we have evolved along with our chimp cousins who likely don't bother with trying to learn or remember anything - they just do what they need to do when some other critter needs some help, solace, grooming, for the sake of the troop's allostatic load-bearing capacity.

Pete, I'd like to ask you (if you don't mind) if it matters to you, one way or the other, to know that there are nerves in your leg and that persistent pain can sometimes, often even, arise from one of them constantly signalling, rightly or wrongly, that it is having a problem where it lives. I'd like to know if seeing a picture of nerves in your leg bothers you or helps you figure out how to plan a strategy. If you saw a health provider, would you want them to have learned about a few nerves, how they might be helped, or would you not care one way or the other. And please don't feel obliged to answer this if you'd rather not - I'm just kinda curious, and this is your thread.
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Old 25-12-2006, 03:39 AM   #27
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Reading Barrett's question I interpret it to mean the same thing that has bothered me about Diane's approach, I'm sure there are differences between what he means and I think though. A large part of the criticism of the "mesodermalist" approach is the approach, not just the difference between mesoderm and ectoderm but that a) there is an attempt to differentiate the two in a functional sense and b) there is a belief that answers can be found simply by reduction, studying ever more minute details about the human system. That seems to conflict with my idea, and maybe some others, that understanding of the human condition is more like chaos theory, that the system is too complex to try to understand the whole by reducing it to it's components, WE can't do that with regard to someone else, but their brain already has it figured out. There is always value in knowledge, and a greater knowledge of nerves is probably helpful to understanding just as a greater understanding of anatomy, physiology, kinematics etc. is helpful but it's easy to confuse knowledge with approach.

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Old 25-12-2006, 10:36 AM   #28
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Great point, Randy. Confusing knowledge with approach.

I think this is exactly what the PT students get into trouble with. As Barrett has pointed out, students do fine on anatomy, its the physiology they fail to understand that really gets them into trouble.

I find I can get my patients to focus on corrective movement a lot easier if I tell them that I can't show them the nerves that are irritated, and that looking at a book actually won't help either. That the system is complex and interconnected (which explains why they have pains that aren't in what previous doctors have called "the wrong place" - because it wasn't segmental). I find people do better if I take the focus off of what something looks like and on to what something "feels" like, I can orient them properly to their physiology and not to their anatomy, which everyone else had examined, scanned, and taken pictures of. None of which lead to useful care in the past.

However, in reading Diane's explanation of why she does this in the context of education, it does make sense, and I can see how it can be useful part of an overall approach.
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Old 25-12-2006, 10:45 AM   #29
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Cory-
Thanks for the congratulations. My overall opinion is summarized nicely by the 'Overeducated DHPSG' that appears under my name. I think of the brilliant PTs in commonwealth countries with great success, unlimited direct access and reimbursement, and even musculoskeletal injection rights in the UK - all with Bachelor's degrees, and I just scratch my head about this crazy American system...
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Old 25-12-2006, 02:47 PM   #30
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Personally, I admire Diane's attention to detail. Jimmy Hendrix was a great guitarist, but he could never compose a symphony, because he never studied music academically. You could argue that having a lot of technical knowledge could detract from expression, but I don't believe that. Never seen it work that way. We'll have plenty of time later to dispose of the useless stuff, but if you never learn it to begin with, then you'd never know whether it was helpful or not.
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Old 25-12-2006, 09:23 PM   #31
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Jason, your point about
Quote:
this crazy American system
is possibly a major reason why Barrett's students and other PTs have difficulty with extra-curricular learning such as ideomotion.
It would seem, from my distant perspective, that many in the USA are not taught to question any approach and the premises behind the approach, and tend to believe that a pedagogal "this is how you will do it" approach is all there is to clinical practice.
Students in Oz from at least three Unis that I know of, are taught to question.
They are invited to question what the tutor is saying, to find out why they think it's inaccurate and challenge the basis of the statement. Maybe we are more egalitarian; I don't know.

I think Randy's point is important. Having a vast amount of knowledge never guarantees anything; but for those wanting to know and able to incorporate new knowledge wisely into their approaches to patients, will come out better off. It's not knowledge per se, it is what one does with it. Diane does this.

A "brilliant" PT may have a ton of knowledge, but it is worthless if it does not translate into sensible and successful clinical approaches.

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Old 26-12-2006, 10:18 PM   #32
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Diane

Thank you for the nerve diagrams and suggestions for skin stretching/taping. And sorry for the delay in responding to your question - Christmas got in the way

You asked, if I understood you correctly, whether some information on the role of leg nerves in pain experience would be helpful, and whether I would prefer to see a healthcare provider who is familiar with nerves.

My answer is an emphatic Yes! For two reasons: Firstly, I'm one of those people (maybe everyone is one of those people?) who needs to understand why I'm in pain. Unless I saw a healthcare person who was able to completely fix me in one visit, I would expect to be doing some of the healing 'work' on myself, whether it is movement, reminding myself of pain concepts or something else. And if I'm going to do that wholeheartedly, I would find it very reassuring to be working with someone who could explain in pretty detailed terms why I feel pain 'here' as opposed to 'there' and why it comes on at certain times, why it moves around etc. This could just be my personality type (big on detail and always having lots of questions). Secondly, and I'm not sure if this is what you were asking me, I suspect that the way that you have immersed yourself in The World Of Nerves means that your brain/nervous system has acquired a whole lot of tacit knowledge that you are able to draw on when working with a patient, perhaps without even realising that you are doing so. Have you read 'Blink' by Malcolm Gladwell? It's the sort of thing he talks about.

Notwithstanding the dangers of online diagnosis, I do have some questions about my knee:

If it becomes sore several hours (or even the next day or two days later) after an activity (eg 2 hour walk) does that suggest cartilage damage? My mental model is of disintegrating cartilage releasing unpleasant chemicals which reach a critical level, and are hence perceived by my brain, some hours later. It's not a particularly helpful mental model, I have to admit. Also, does the presence of warmth suggest chemical irritation/inflammation? Or could either of these factors be attributable to cranky nerves?

And if there is cartilage damage, I'm assuming carefully graded activity progressions is pretty much all I can do?

Thanks again

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Old 26-12-2006, 11:19 PM   #33
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Thanks for that Pete.. sort of encourages me to keep on keeping on in life.

What you have described does not necessarily indicate cartilage damage - per se. (You could well have some, but people can have cartilage damage without having pain. If you don't have any cartilage at all - well, yes, then you're more likely to have some pain. But we don't think there's much wrong in there, right?)
Quote:
does the presence of warmth suggest chemical irritation/inflammation? Or could either of these factors be attributable to cranky nerves?
Yes.

You get delayed onset of pain, so you probably have mechanoreceptors that are annoyed about movement of the sort you've been doing. It doesn't mean you are necessarily harming anything by walking, if you want to walk. Next time you go for a long walk, you could try taping your knee.

Stretchy tape that doesn't draw your attention away from the walk would be best. But any sort will do. Just put it on so that you can move any way you want with it on, and so that you can bend your knee easily. (Maybe even put it on with your knee bent.)

You don't need much, just a few strips, about an inch wide and three or four inches long. I've included a thumbnail of how I would tape a knee (front view) for the sort of pain you have described.

This is perfectly innocuous and worth a try, as long as you have no tape allergies. If everything goes well, this should help your brain get novel feedback through the mechanoreceptors in the skin, and help it respond differently next time you use your knee, exercising or walking. Hopefully it can "unlearn" its previous output and give you a more benign experience, express itself differently through your knee.
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Old 28-12-2006, 12:24 PM   #34
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Thank you, Diane.
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Old 15-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #35
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Another "old but gold" thread for me, thank you!

Returning to the original question:

I've been doing some Feldenkrais exercises for a while now and just recently started to "work-out" in my imagination as well. I've found that doing only a few repetitions of an imaginary movement relaxes the whole of your body almost instanly as oppose to a "real" movement that at least at start of it tends to hold the muscles contracted.

Is this a bit like ideomotion in the SC sense? It doesn't produce warmth and it's not really a "movement" I guess, but maybe directing your attention to a particular part of a body allows the other parts to do what they uncounsciosly have to (sorry for speaking in such scientific terms).

I was actually taught at school that an ideomotor movement is the one done in imagination, not the uncounscios movement everyone refers to here on somasimple so I'm a bit confused.
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Old 15-03-2012, 10:29 PM   #36
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Ideomotion is actual, active, nonconsciously generated movement expressing us and reducing mechanical neural compromise. What did they know in school?
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Old 15-03-2012, 10:35 PM   #37
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Ideomotion is observable but non-conscious movement or, I think possibly, restriction of movement. It isn't something that occurs only in the imagination. Imagining movement can induce a degree of ideomotion as there can be a sub-threshold rise in the motor units producing faint but again discernible movement in the affected part.

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Old 17-03-2012, 07:11 PM   #38
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Thank you Barrett and Andy!
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