More Infuriating Chiropractic Garbage... - Page 3

**Bas Asselbergs** · 21-09-2007, 05:04 AM

Nah, Chris. Belief and conviction is not always showmanship....Your deliberate and non-flamboyant attitude may not go over well in Vegas, but it will get you long term patient supporters.... Just no TV appearances or big sponsors for a stage presentation in the Skydome (or whatever it is called these days) - Tony Robbins doesn`t quite have to worry yet,,,

smith · 18-07-2008, 08:01 PM

Here in North New Jersey the wrestling coach's chiro buddy wanted to take over my duties as a ATC. They both backed down when I contacted state licenseing authorties. Nice guys huh. A buddy ATC had a girl athlete tear her ACL. Her chiro said to do adjustments and it would make it better (no kidding). It didn't. Her insurance runs out (school insurance) and she has to wait a year for her ACL sx.

smith

**Diane** · 22-11-2008, 04:48 PM

A new thread has appeared at SBM on the topic of chiropractic and matrix repatterning.

Apparently a chiropractor was charged with sexual misconduct and claimed it was the technique's fault. OK... I think we DO have a thread on matrix repatterning somewhere in the rubbish cube... however, my understanding was that it was performed off-body, not on...

In the comments section, Joe posts that 9 out of 10 chiropractors believe in subluxation, according to their own survey, which he has linked, How chiropractors think and practice: The survey of North American chiropractors. Also in the comments, a brief discussion of PT versus chiro.

NateM · 22-11-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

...Joe posts that 9 out of 10 chiropractors believe in subluxation, according to their own survey...

Ugh...thankfully I turned my back on that profession after my visit to the New York Chiro College.

To think I might have been out there sending postcards to previous patients telling them they need to come back in for their "maintenance" adjustment.

**Diane** · 22-11-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Ugh...thankfully I turned my back on that profession after my visit to the New York Chiro College.

To think I might have been out there sending postcards to previous patients telling them they need to come back in for their "maintenance" adjustment.

Way to go Nate.

Thinking ahead.

**Diane** · 28-11-2008, 06:05 PM

Hi there, just popping in to add a link to the new thread, "Sad."

kongen · 22-01-2009, 11:47 AM

Here's a case worth following.. some of the regulars here have even been subject to this tactic I believe.

http://counterknowledge.com/?p=2200

kongen · 26-01-2009, 07:04 PM

Here is what I gather a relatively new video of what chiropractic is all about. Old habits die hard apparently.. http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl-2sPLqKE

**Diane** · 19-02-2009, 07:20 AM

ScienceBased Medicie blog and Harriet Hall's latest thread about chiropractic. It started out slow, but eventually the chiros noticed it and now it's a rockin' thread. Check out the comment section especially.

I'm Harriet Hall's number 1 fan.

cathyph · 19-02-2009, 05:23 PM

Diane, did you get to that youtube link at the end of the comments? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbr3Mr6FS2I Blech! Must have been a slow news day in Davenport. What's curious to me is the strong consistency within that "culture' - of ego inflation, mercenary-driven pseudo-authority, which far outweighs any intention to help a patient participate in their own restorative process. Like the culture they have created for themselves is far removed from any kind of true health care. More reason to stay focused on real work and educating our patients (once we're done cleaning up the aftermath).
Cathy

**Diane** · 19-02-2009, 05:25 PM

Yeah cathy. Pretty much a matter for the

icon.

**Jason Silvernail** · 19-02-2009, 08:39 PM

Great post at SBM - thanks Diane.

Funny to see the ridiculous way physical therapists continue to be characterized by chiropractors - as poorly educated hacks unable to make a diagnosis.

It's clear they feel threatened. Perhaps its because we publish all the best research in manipulative therapy, are improving our education, practice, and research bases every year, have published research (cooperatively with orthopedic surgeons) on our superior musculoskeletal knowledge. Perhaps its because instead of competing with medical physicians, we work cooperatively with them by taking their consults and that we screen and refer our patients to physicians if we suspect they have a medical condition outside our scope of expertise rather than diagnosing someone with a "subluxation". Perhaps it's that we have clinical experience in actual hospitals and clinics with actual sick patients working cooperatively with physicians and other healthcare professionals rather than paying college friends to show up to a chiro college "clinic". Perhaps its our much higher academic standards for entrance into our schools. Perhaps its our higher starting salaries and low unemployment rate. Perhaps its our low student loan default rate and practice failure rate (though to be fair, almost every other profession looks particularly good in this area compared to chiropractic). Perhaps its because third parties say that the evolution of physical therapists to doctoral level education, integration with the medical model, and cooperative (rather than adverse and competitive) relationship with medical doctors will result in the continued decline of the chiropratic profession - see "The Future of Chiropractic Revisited". Perhaps its because of their declining enrollments and declining starting salaries and high practice failure rate.

So I guess it's hard to say what particular issue bothers them the most.

mrupe82 · 20-02-2009, 06:00 AM

Not sure if this has been posted up here...it goes along with one of Jason's posts about the home-chiropractic jazz...

Chiro says to Lobbyist "Those PT's can't learn manipulation"
Chiro says to Mom "Buy this DVD and just wack Johnny's neck in place, that'll fix his cough"

Hard to take seriously...I mean, c'mon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk8bp...eature=related

Enjoy

mrupe82 · 20-02-2009, 06:44 AM

Just one more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7Lv...eature=related

You can find this stuff everywhere....Do they actually teach this in a college setting? And no one questions it?

**nari** · 20-02-2009, 07:10 AM

Oh pul-eeze!! manipulating the nose? and the bone at the top goes up where the frontal lobe is??? What??

nari

NateM · 20-02-2009, 02:17 PM

I briefly toured the chiropractic college in my state before PT school. They actually had a blood-draw lab, where students had to complete 3 blood draws on fellow students to graduate. Did I miss something in that purpose? Imagine a chiro coming at you with a needle?

And I think Jason hit on all of their sore spots...PT's are leaving chiros in the dust when it comes to advancing manual therapy and rehabilitative procedures. And I believe it is directly related to the higher admission standards for PT schools...better talent pools give you better outcomes (usually).

BB · 20-02-2009, 04:28 PM

Possibly the blood draws were in relation to this?

mrupe82 · 20-02-2009, 04:32 PM

Please read the message from the individual that posted this video....EYE-OPENING!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MambD...eature=related

Please, those of you that question these practices...Youtube is a beautiful thing to solidify your judgement. For those of you supporting these practices, you may want to question a lot of things you do.

Lastly,
as a PT student, I have learned these manipulations and they are quite easy to perform technique-wise (just ask the "do it yourself chiropractic dvd!"). I have watched and seen enough manips done by chiropractors (obviously those non-EBPers?) and they use the same manips for every patient. If I had the great fortune of running through life with blinders on, I would have gone this route.

Health history, possible blood draw (WHAT?), prone knee bend test with shoes still on (reliable/valid?), clicker thingy(voo-doo?) Lumbar, thoracic, cervical manips and have a nice day.

By the way, what is that 'Activator' thing? If I snapped my fingers and poked a patient at the same time would i get the same results?

**Diane** · 08-04-2009, 03:35 PM

Here is a conference on vitalism. Looks like vitalism is on Life support. It's a one day, costs $69, and .....

Quote:

Nine hours of continuing education credit have been applied for in the following states: Georgia, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York.

Check out the video to see the face of sm-oo-the.
Apparently some Aussie is mixed up in it...

When your sales career built around selling voodoo is being threatened, repackage/rename it "new" ? Note the complete absence of any mention of neuroscience.

**Bas Asselbergs** · 08-04-2009, 04:54 PM

The MOST telling aspect of the Ted Danson lookalike presentation, it that there is no mention or use of the word "science".

**John W** · 08-04-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

The intelligence is the process of life. That's the new vitalism. -Dr. Riekeman

Good grief, what the hell does this mean?

That presentation was full of self-importance and slickness, two characteristics that chiropractors consistently display.

**Diane** · 08-04-2009, 07:43 PM

Yeah. I've started distrusting anything that sounds even remotely octagonal, myself...

mrupe82 · 15-04-2009, 06:44 AM

I just saw this video and feel it needs to be shared with the world. I'm sure you've all seen these things and this is old news, but I keep finding more and more things that makes me wonder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74va...e=channel_page

My only comment is...Seriously? These guys can actually sleep at night?

**Jason Silvernail** · 15-04-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrupe82

My only comment is...Seriously? These guys can actually sleep at night?

Does the belt holster come free with the Activator or do you have to purchase that separately?
That video is hilarious.

THESE are the people that have direct access to patients, are referred to as 'physicians', have more practice privileges than us by law and claim WE'RE not educated enough to safely diagnose a patient.
WOW. If I didn't know this situation existed, I wouldn't believe you if you told me.

**nari** · 15-04-2009, 08:38 AM

I wonder if he clicked his fingers instead of the Activator the "results" would be the same??

Nari

**estherderu** · 15-04-2009, 11:18 AM

It probably would have.
I remember patients not trusting our new ultrashall equipement because it didn´t make a noise (it therefore couldn´t work could it?)

This last video is more than hilarious, it is shocking and dirty. I didn´t count how many times he touched the sneakers gathering dirt and stuff from its sools in the process. YUKKK

Esther

**Bas Asselbergs** · 15-04-2009, 03:05 PM

personally, I am impressed. The ability to find the vertebra and rib joints "out of alignement" with a finger push through clothes, and then without error place the Activator on the exact spot to deliver that precise therapeutic thrust - with the exact same hand/arm pressure each time of course.
Really good.

And this guy can sleep at night. Even more impressed.....

mrupe82 · 15-04-2009, 10:20 PM

So I asked the individual that posted this video if there is any high level evidence suggesting that whatever he is doing is supported for whatever he is doing (i can't figure it out?)

He responded with this

"There is plenty of research here: http://www.activator.com/research_04/page_001.asp
Thanks for asking."

To make it easier i've attached the three research papers posted on this website

**Diane** · 16-04-2009, 04:13 PM

Something chiropractic which isn't so infuriating or such garbage:

An article from Dynamic Chiropractic.

Quote:

BC/BSA recently announced that while coverage would not be affected, chiropractors are no longer included in the employee program's definition of physician, effective Jan. 1, 2009. The 2009 Blue Cross/Blue Shield Service Benefit Plan, as administered by the Blue Cross/Blue Shield Association, has specifically removed "Chiropractors / Doctors of Chiropractic" from its definition of physician and now considers us "other covered health care professionals."

What a coincidence! Just as national health care reform begins, BC/BSA, "out of the blue," decided to demote doctors of chiropractic from physician status to "other health care professionals."And what a coincidence that this demotion occurred right after the American Medical Association (AMA) House of Delegates adopted an official policy limiting physician status to medical doctors and doctors of osteopathy.

This puts chiropractic where it belongs IMO, might stop them getting away with pretending to be "doctors."
I don't know what it will mean for the PTs of the US.. maybe that it won't be worth getting a DPT if direct (unfettered by referral) access is the aim.

**Jason Silvernail** · 16-04-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diane

This puts chiropractic where it belongs IMO, might stop them getting away with pretending to be "doctors."
I don't know what it will mean for the PTs of the US.. maybe that it won't be worth getting a DPT if direct (unfettered by referral) access is the aim.

Well, in the US the DPT is about more than direct access, but that's a big part of it. We have NEVER pretended to be or called ourselves "physicians", and I can't see that happening. I think the use of this term implies medical physician status, and certainly that isn't appropriate for a physical therapist. BTW, aren't DPMs "podiatric physicians" and ODs "optometric physicians"?

mrupe82 · 17-04-2009, 12:18 AM

Diane,

I think you would appreciate the neurophysiological intelligence of this gentleman. A 'sports kinesiologist and chiropractic neurologist' to be exact

Enjoy...sigh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAx1G...c-HM-fresh+div

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxoZ-...x=0&playnext=1

**Diane** · 04-05-2009, 04:16 PM

This just in: Chiropractic delisted in Alberta. If you scan through it you'll read a whole bunch of "what??? Us? We were saving the government money, not costing them", testimonials, and ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO SANDY NETTE OR HER LAWSUIT.

Good for the Alberta government.

Of course, what it could mean is that the lawsuit gets thrown out or something, because if the Alberta government is being sued by class action for funding chiro, and they can prove that they do not fund chiro, then the suit loses all the wind in its sails. After the suit collapses, at some point in the future the Alberta government (which likely contains chiros and/or family members of chiros) could turn around and fluff funding to chiro right back up again. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I see this as possibly just a tactical maneuver to avoid suit.

Thirdgen · 16-05-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Silvernail

Hard to figure out why they are universally considered such a greasy and shady profession...

This must be just yet ANOTHER example of those "few bad apples" we keep hearing about from the chiros...seems more than a few to me...

Here's an example

Here's more on that

Is this the world record in physical medicine fraud, $2.7 B ?:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13830

Sorry, turns out he wasn't a chiro after all.

**Diane** · 16-05-2009, 07:27 PM

Ex-Scrushy-atingly good info there, Thirdgen.

It doesn't de-implicate chiro in general though.

Thirdgen · 16-05-2009, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diane

Yeah. I've started distrusting anything that sounds even remotely octagonal, myself...

Does this mean you are now running stop signs

Thirdgen · 16-05-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diane

Ex--atingly good info there, Thirdgen.

It doesn't de-implicate chiro in general though.

I didn't intend to "de-implicate chiro in general".

Besides, I expect Scrushy is a fine, upstanding citizen.

**John W** · 16-05-2009, 11:15 PM

Then, what's your point, Thirdgen?

Your link, while a worthy example of gross health care financial fraud, has nothing to do with the context of this thread.

Are you trying to tell us, "See, PTs are frauds, too."

For the record, Scrushy was trained as a respiratory therapist, and his organization, while certainly predominant in outpatient PT services, had just about all rehab-related professions, viz PT, OT, ST, ATC and even MDs, providing services in several different settings, including neurological and acute rehab.

Scrushy is now a convicted felon. Is that your idea of a "fine, upstanding citizen," or are you just being sarcastic as well as cryptic with this series of postings?

Why don't you tell us who your are and what point it is you're trying to make. I don't have the time or the inclination to decipher your wry wit.

mrupe82 · 03-06-2009, 03:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5Kb...eature=related

This 'crack head' (pun intended) actually states he uses PHYSICAL THERAPY to treat patients (idiot thinks that PT is ice/heat/e-stim)...last I checked that's not allowed.

Now this is a purely speculative question....What would it take to expose chiropractic for what it is, thus eradicating it, or at least put it where it belongs?

Everyone's reply is that they have more money to pay lobbyists, thus political pull/power. I saw a stat saying there are 137,000 PTs in the US and 41,000 chiros. There is no way they should have the political pull they do.

Matt

TexasOrtho · 03-06-2009, 04:03 AM

You forgot to consider the trial lawyers in that equation. They tend to tip the scales quite a bit in the political arena. I still think the many chiros in the US are in the middle of a slow bleed however.

mrupe82 · 27-06-2009, 05:17 PM

Rod,

Sorry to forget the trial lawyers.....I still revert back to my previous question, what would it take to expose them for what they are? They are very good at getting what they want and restricting others from doing what is within their scope of practice, yet can/will say they do physical therapy. I see these offices on every corner and hear the garbage they fill peoples' brains with. I still know PT's, one i talked to yesterday, say her manipulations 'are very general and not as specific as a chiropractors.' Yes, i filled her in afterwards and pointed her toward various papers.

I know this is/may be a useless fight, but in all honesty, they are the one 'health-care professional/doctor' that practices a method that is flawed in theory,completely invalid, and invented in one day by a magnet healer. Why, after >100 years are they still here?

**Barrett Dorko** · 27-06-2009, 05:28 PM

They are still here because their marketing has hit all the right notes at the right time and changes as is needed. Simple as that.

**Diane** · 27-06-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

I know this is/may be a useless fight, but in all honesty, they are the one 'health-care professional/doctor' that practices a method that is flawed in theory,completely invalid, and invented in one day by a magnet healer. Why, after >100 years are they still here?

GREAT question!

I think the answer may lie somewhere in the carrying capacity of their environment. For something to exist, it exploits its environment. However, the other side of this is that the environment will support or at least tolerate that... what to call it... "life form"?

Anyway, by exposing it, by naming it for what it is, by explaining it, by supporting all the efforts made by anyone/everyone out there who are also doing this, eventually the environment will become less tolerant/supportive etc.

On the plus side, it's a (so-called) "profession" that based itself on a very, very narrow base of human primate social grooming. The more that base is eroded scientifically the more the (so-called) profession will topple over one day because of its own dead weight. It may take out orthopaedic manual therapy with it, when it comes crashing down in the Deep Dark Forest of Meso-doom. That will be a sad day for those who are our friends and who truly believed they were treating joints, but a glad day for reason and reality and neuroscience-based forms of treatment.

**Diane** · 12-10-2009, 05:29 AM

Chiropractors billing for PT? Sued 11 million for doing that. Fraud! Bad chiro! Bad!

mrupe82 · 21-11-2009, 04:50 PM

This video is from Penn and Tellers' show called 'Bulls**t." If you don't know them, they are a comedian/magic duo from Las Vegas. It's a little bit on chiropractic. If you are offended by the use of four letter words, please DO NOT watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uD_JPtsP-Q

Have a great weekend

**Diane** · 21-11-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrupe82

This video is from Penn and Tellers' show called 'Bulls**t." If you don't know them, they are a comedian/magic duo from Las Vegas. It's a little bit on chiropractic. If you are offended by the use of four letter words, please DO NOT watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uD_JPtsP-Q

Have a great weekend

Yes, this belongs in here. Screamingly funny.

kongen · 21-11-2009, 06:28 PM

Wow.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTz7V...eature=related

**Bas Asselbergs** · 21-11-2009, 07:14 PM

Anders - that is typical isn't it:
A good looking "professional" (notice the wavy hair, white coat), nice visuals (x-rays with "misalignments"), a confident attitude with sentences as "we WILL fix this" and, to top it off, a very cool looking machine doing something not-so-hard on the skin. Bingo.
All brought to you by the popular soap-image of the scrub wearing "hottie" doctors.....

mrupe82 · 21-11-2009, 07:57 PM

http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/crelin.html

An interesting article.

kongen · 21-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Bas,

I've seen The Doctors show on TV previously, but I never would have thought they would uncritically showcase this kind of treatment.. well well..

**Frédéric** · 23-11-2009, 03:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuUM7...1&feature=fvwp

I'm without words...

21-09-2007, 05:04 AM	#101
Bas Asselbergs Physiotherapist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Age: 61 Posts: 3,696 Thanks: 841 Thanked 485 Times in 234 Posts	Nah, Chris. Belief and conviction is not always showmanship....Your deliberate and non-flamboyant attitude may not go over well in Vegas, but it will get you long term patient supporters.... Just no TV appearances or big sponsors for a stage presentation in the Skydome (or whatever it is called these days) - Tony Robbins doesn`t quite have to worry yet,,, __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

18-07-2008, 08:01 PM	#102
smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Age: 55 Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	my chiro horror storys Here in North New Jersey the wrestling coach's chiro buddy wanted to take over my duties as a ATC. They both backed down when I contacted state licenseing authorties. Nice guys huh. A buddy ATC had a girl athlete tear her ACL. Her chiro said to do adjustments and it would make it better (no kidding). It didn't. Her insurance runs out (school insurance) and she has to wait a year for her ACL sx. smith

22-11-2008, 04:48 PM	#103
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	A new thread has appeared at SBM on the topic of chiropractic and matrix repatterning. Apparently a chiropractor was charged with sexual misconduct and claimed it was the technique's fault. OK... I think we DO have a thread on matrix repatterning somewhere in the rubbish cube... however, my understanding was that it was performed off-body, not on... In the comments section, Joe posts that 9 out of 10 chiropractors believe in subluxation, according to their own survey, which he has linked, How chiropractors think and practice: The survey of North American chiropractors. Also in the comments, a brief discussion of PT versus chiro. __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

28-11-2008, 06:05 PM	#106
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	Hi there, just popping in to add a link to the new thread, "Sad." __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

22-01-2009, 11:47 AM	#107
kongen Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Age: 38 Posts: 530 Thanks: 25 Thanked 15 Times in 7 Posts	Here's a case worth following.. some of the regulars here have even been subject to this tactic I believe. http://counterknowledge.com/?p=2200 __________________ Anders. "There is nothing so practical as a good theory." -Kurt Lewin

26-01-2009, 07:04 PM	#108
kongen Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Age: 38 Posts: 530 Thanks: 25 Thanked 15 Times in 7 Posts	Here is what I gather a relatively new video of what chiropractic is all about. Old habits die hard apparently.. http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl-2sPLqKE __________________ Anders. "There is nothing so practical as a good theory." -Kurt Lewin

19-02-2009, 07:20 AM	#109
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	ScienceBased Medicie blog and Harriet Hall's latest thread about chiropractic. It started out slow, but eventually the chiros noticed it and now it's a rockin' thread. Check out the comment section especially. I'm Harriet Hall's number 1 fan. __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

19-02-2009, 05:23 PM	#110
cathyph Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 72 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Diane, did you get to that youtube link at the end of the comments? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbr3Mr6FS2I Blech! Must have been a slow news day in Davenport. What's curious to me is the strong consistency within that "culture' - of ego inflation, mercenary-driven pseudo-authority, which far outweighs any intention to help a patient participate in their own restorative process. Like the culture they have created for themselves is far removed from any kind of true health care. More reason to stay focused on real work and educating our patients (once we're done cleaning up the aftermath). Cathy

19-02-2009, 05:25 PM	#111
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	Yeah cathy. Pretty much a matter for the icon. __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

19-02-2009, 08:39 PM	#112
Jason Silvernail Clinician and Researcher Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kandahar Province, Afghanistan Age: 39 Posts: 4,078 Thanks: 118 Thanked 536 Times in 182 Posts	Great post at SBM - thanks Diane. Funny to see the ridiculous way physical therapists continue to be characterized by chiropractors - as poorly educated hacks unable to make a diagnosis. It's clear they feel threatened. Perhaps its because we publish all the best research in manipulative therapy, are improving our education, practice, and research bases every year, have published research (cooperatively with orthopedic surgeons) on our superior musculoskeletal knowledge. Perhaps its because instead of competing with medical physicians, we work cooperatively with them by taking their consults and that we screen and refer our patients to physicians if we suspect they have a medical condition outside our scope of expertise rather than diagnosing someone with a "subluxation". Perhaps it's that we have clinical experience in actual hospitals and clinics with actual sick patients working cooperatively with physicians and other healthcare professionals rather than paying college friends to show up to a chiro college "clinic". Perhaps its our much higher academic standards for entrance into our schools. Perhaps its our higher starting salaries and low unemployment rate. Perhaps its our low student loan default rate and practice failure rate (though to be fair, almost every other profession looks particularly good in this area compared to chiropractic). Perhaps its because third parties say that the evolution of physical therapists to doctoral level education, integration with the medical model, and cooperative (rather than adverse and competitive) relationship with medical doctors will result in the continued decline of the chiropratic profession - see "The Future of Chiropractic Revisited". Perhaps its because of their declining enrollments and declining starting salaries and high practice failure rate. So I guess it's hard to say what particular issue bothers them the most. __________________ Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

20-02-2009, 06:00 AM	#113
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Not sure if this has been posted up here...it goes along with one of Jason's posts about the home-chiropractic jazz... Chiro says to Lobbyist "Those PT's can't learn manipulation" Chiro says to Mom "Buy this DVD and just wack Johnny's neck in place, that'll fix his cough" Hard to take seriously...I mean, c'mon! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk8bp...eature=related Enjoy

20-02-2009, 06:44 AM	#114
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Just one more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7Lv...eature=related You can find this stuff everywhere....Do they actually teach this in a college setting? And no one questions it?

20-02-2009, 07:10 AM	#115
nari NeuroNut Evangelist Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ACT Aust Posts: 7,684 Thanks: 707 Thanked 234 Times in 168 Posts	Oh pul-eeze!! manipulating the nose? and the bone at the top goes up where the frontal lobe is??? What?? nari

20-02-2009, 02:17 PM	#116
NateM Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 203 Thanks: 21 Thanked 30 Times in 14 Posts	I briefly toured the chiropractic college in my state before PT school. They actually had a blood-draw lab, where students had to complete 3 blood draws on fellow students to graduate. Did I miss something in that purpose? Imagine a chiro coming at you with a needle? And I think Jason hit on all of their sore spots...PT's are leaving chiros in the dust when it comes to advancing manual therapy and rehabilitative procedures. And I believe it is directly related to the higher admission standards for PT schools...better talent pools give you better outcomes (usually). __________________ Nate Mosher, PT, DPT

20-02-2009, 04:28 PM	#117
BB Arbiter Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 3,462 Thanks: 137 Thanked 148 Times in 68 Posts	Possibly the blood draws were in relation to this? __________________ Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page

20-02-2009, 04:32 PM	#118
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Please read the message from the individual that posted this video....EYE-OPENING!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MambD...eature=related Please, those of you that question these practices...Youtube is a beautiful thing to solidify your judgement. For those of you supporting these practices, you may want to question a lot of things you do. Lastly, as a PT student, I have learned these manipulations and they are quite easy to perform technique-wise (just ask the "do it yourself chiropractic dvd!"). I have watched and seen enough manips done by chiropractors (obviously those non-EBPers?) and they use the same manips for every patient. If I had the great fortune of running through life with blinders on, I would have gone this route. Health history, possible blood draw (WHAT?), prone knee bend test with shoes still on (reliable/valid?), clicker thingy(voo-doo?) Lumbar, thoracic, cervical manips and have a nice day. By the way, what is that 'Activator' thing? If I snapped my fingers and poked a patient at the same time would i get the same results?

08-04-2009, 04:54 PM	#120
Bas Asselbergs Physiotherapist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Age: 61 Posts: 3,696 Thanks: 841 Thanked 485 Times in 234 Posts	The MOST telling aspect of the Ted Danson lookalike presentation, it that there is no mention or use of the word "science". __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

08-04-2009, 07:43 PM	#122
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	Yeah. I've started distrusting anything that sounds even remotely octagonal, myself... __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

15-04-2009, 06:44 AM	#123
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	I just saw this video and feel it needs to be shared with the world. I'm sure you've all seen these things and this is old news, but I keep finding more and more things that makes me wonder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74va...e=channel_page My only comment is...Seriously? These guys can actually sleep at night?

15-04-2009, 08:38 AM	#125
nari NeuroNut Evangelist Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ACT Aust Posts: 7,684 Thanks: 707 Thanked 234 Times in 168 Posts	I wonder if he clicked his fingers instead of the Activator the "results" would be the same?? Nari

15-04-2009, 11:18 AM	#126
estherderu SomaSimpler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: spain Age: 62 Posts: 159 Thanks: 10 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	the sneaker manipulation.... It probably would have. I remember patients not trusting our new ultrashall equipement because it didn´t make a noise (it therefore couldn´t work could it?) This last video is more than hilarious, it is shocking and dirty. I didn´t count how many times he touched the sneakers gathering dirt and stuff from its sools in the process. YUKKK Esther

15-04-2009, 03:05 PM	#127
Bas Asselbergs Physiotherapist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Age: 61 Posts: 3,696 Thanks: 841 Thanked 485 Times in 234 Posts	personally, I am impressed. The ability to find the vertebra and rib joints "out of alignement" with a finger push through clothes, and then without error place the Activator on the exact spot to deliver that precise therapeutic thrust - with the exact same hand/arm pressure each time of course. Really good. And this guy can sleep at night. Even more impressed..... __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

17-04-2009, 12:18 AM	#131
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Diane, I think you would appreciate the neurophysiological intelligence of this gentleman. A 'sports kinesiologist and chiropractic neurologist' to be exact Enjoy...sigh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAx1G...c-HM-fresh+div http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxoZ-...x=0&playnext=1 Last edited by mrupe82; 17-04-2009 at 12:24 AM. Reason: missed a few words

04-05-2009, 04:16 PM	#132
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	This just in: Chiropractic delisted in Alberta. If you scan through it you'll read a whole bunch of "what??? Us? We were saving the government money, not costing them", testimonials, and ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO SANDY NETTE OR HER LAWSUIT. Good for the Alberta government. Of course, what it could mean is that the lawsuit gets thrown out or something, because if the Alberta government is being sued by class action for funding chiro, and they can prove that they do not fund chiro, then the suit loses all the wind in its sails. After the suit collapses, at some point in the future the Alberta government (which likely contains chiros and/or family members of chiros) could turn around and fluff funding to chiro right back up again. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I see this as possibly just a tactical maneuver to avoid suit. __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

16-05-2009, 07:27 PM	#134
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	Ex-Scrushy-atingly good info there, Thirdgen. It doesn't de-implicate chiro in general though. __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

16-05-2009, 11:15 PM	#137
John W Harmless creampuff Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Orleans, LA Age: 48 Posts: 4,643 Thanks: 620 Thanked 966 Times in 436 Posts	Then, what's your point, Thirdgen? Your link, while a worthy example of gross health care financial fraud, has nothing to do with the context of this thread. Are you trying to tell us, "See, PTs are frauds, too." For the record, Scrushy was trained as a respiratory therapist, and his organization, while certainly predominant in outpatient PT services, had just about all rehab-related professions, viz PT, OT, ST, ATC and even MDs, providing services in several different settings, including neurological and acute rehab. Scrushy is now a convicted felon. Is that your idea of a "fine, upstanding citizen," or are you just being sarcastic as well as cryptic with this series of postings? Why don't you tell us who your are and what point it is you're trying to make. I don't have the time or the inclination to decipher your wry wit. __________________ John Ware, PT Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

03-06-2009, 03:41 AM	#138
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5Kb...eature=related This 'crack head' (pun intended) actually states he uses PHYSICAL THERAPY to treat patients (idiot thinks that PT is ice/heat/e-stim)...last I checked that's not allowed. Now this is a purely speculative question....What would it take to expose chiropractic for what it is, thus eradicating it, or at least put it where it belongs? Everyone's reply is that they have more money to pay lobbyists, thus political pull/power. I saw a stat saying there are 137,000 PTs in the US and 41,000 chiros. There is no way they should have the political pull they do. Matt

03-06-2009, 04:03 AM	#139
TexasOrtho Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Huffman, TX Age: 41 Posts: 1,325 Thanks: 287 Thanked 223 Times in 88 Posts	You forgot to consider the trial lawyers in that equation. They tend to tip the scales quite a bit in the political arena. I still think the many chiros in the US are in the middle of a slow bleed however. __________________ Rod Henderson, PT, OCS "To teach is to create a space in which the community of truth is practiced" - Parker Palmer

27-06-2009, 05:17 PM	#140
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Rod, Sorry to forget the trial lawyers.....I still revert back to my previous question, what would it take to expose them for what they are? They are very good at getting what they want and restricting others from doing what is within their scope of practice, yet can/will say they do physical therapy. I see these offices on every corner and hear the garbage they fill peoples' brains with. I still know PT's, one i talked to yesterday, say her manipulations 'are very general and not as specific as a chiropractors.' Yes, i filled her in afterwards and pointed her toward various papers. I know this is/may be a useless fight, but in all honesty, they are the one 'health-care professional/doctor' that practices a method that is flawed in theory,completely invalid, and invented in one day by a magnet healer. Why, after >100 years are they still here?

27-06-2009, 05:28 PM	#141
Barrett Dorko Writer and Clinician Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio Age: 61 Posts: 12,689 Thanks: 616 Thanked 1,488 Times in 873 Posts	They are still here because their marketing has hit all the right notes at the right time and changes as is needed. Simple as that. __________________ Barrett L. Dorko P.T. www.barrettdorko.com

12-10-2009, 05:29 AM	#143
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,678 Thanks: 1,493 Thanked 3,199 Times in 1,571 Posts	Chiropractors billing for PT? Sued 11 million for doing that. Fraud! Bad chiro! Bad! __________________ Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

21-11-2009, 04:50 PM	#144
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Does this belong in here? This video is from Penn and Tellers' show called 'Bulls**t." If you don't know them, they are a comedian/magic duo from Las Vegas. It's a little bit on chiropractic. If you are offended by the use of four letter words, please DO NOT watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uD_JPtsP-Q Have a great weekend

21-11-2009, 06:28 PM	#146
kongen Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Age: 38 Posts: 530 Thanks: 25 Thanked 15 Times in 7 Posts	Wow.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTz7V...eature=related __________________ Anders. "There is nothing so practical as a good theory." -Kurt Lewin

21-11-2009, 07:14 PM	#147
Bas Asselbergs Physiotherapist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Age: 61 Posts: 3,696 Thanks: 841 Thanked 485 Times in 234 Posts	Anders - that is typical isn't it: A good looking "professional" (notice the wavy hair, white coat), nice visuals (x-rays with "misalignments"), a confident attitude with sentences as "we WILL fix this" and, to top it off, a very cool looking machine doing something not-so-hard on the skin. Bingo. All brought to you by the popular soap-image of the scrub wearing "hottie" doctors..... __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

21-11-2009, 07:57 PM	#148
mrupe82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 421 Thanks: 5 Thanked 171 Times in 55 Posts	Crelin article http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/crelin.html An interesting article.