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| The References' Caves You can find there some references about chronic pain and PPP. |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Here is a fresh link to an old friend, a paper that deconstructs the poor construct validity of "myofascial pain" and connecting them to trigger points.
I'm copying and pasting the whole thing, because I never ever want to lose this paper from a dead link again. Unfortunately, the tables do not copy well. Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire Last edited by Diane; 20-10-2007 at 09:37 PM. |
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#2 |
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Clinician and Researcher
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Diane-
This is great. Treating trigger points has never made sense to me. This is from the Clinical Journal of Pain, 1994, the pubmed link is here. I'd love to see an update that addresses some of the recent research published addressing the TrP issue.
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Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
Last edited by Jason Silvernail; 28-03-2007 at 06:36 AM. |
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#3 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I'd love to see an update on this too. Quintner has several articles on sore spots.
I've always treated them, but was glad to leave mesodermalism behind thanks in part to this article, just treat them as spots where the nervous system isn't working well.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#4 |
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I made a point of bringing up this paper in the last paragraph of my review. It's a shame they haven't published any more on this topic since '94
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#5 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I found another Quintner article.
THE DERAILMENT OF RAILWAY SPINE: A TIMELY LESSON FOR POST-TRAUMATIC FIBROMYALGIA SYNDROME . The more time goes by the more things stay the same?
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#6 | |
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Quote:
Sorry to say it is "not catching up" as fast as I would have wanted it. Last edited by bernard; 15-05-2007 at 07:20 AM. Reason: quote |
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#7 |
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sproinger
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Thanks Dianne, good to have further science putting paid to the old and very tired notion that muscles and other distal soft tissues are somehow 'bad' or pathological. Rather than taking part in a pattern of tone , behaviour and pain events directed by central neural directions. The physiology of these central mechanisms are , according to the daily examples I witness in my work , ideally explained by irritation related to inflammatory events. These inflammatory events also well explained by the likely and common themes of facet joint behaviour, as would be expected when protective tone increases limit spinal joint movement. By reducing hypertonicity of parazygoapophyseal muscle and restoring normal facet movement behaviour , immediate reductions in these distal muscle "trigger point" indicators are seen. No point jabbing away at the muscles when control and normal behaviour can be better asserted by restoring an irritation free condition by direct attention to central structures. These central structures are easily accessed, found and palpated. Also easily moved , sensed in their movement responses and considered by therapists hands ( thumbs to be precise).
Continuous mobilisation as a method of choice has a lot going for it. Not the least of which is its immediate and lasting effect on the very muscle behaviour this study maintains is centrally mediated .
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vox clamantis in desertoGeoff Fisher Physiotherapist |
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Milton Cohen is regarded as a figure of note in and around the traps.
I think this group of specialists should move their specialty's name away from the ancient word rheum.. It perpetuates the idea that muscle and bone are to blame for almost everything, though that is not their intention. Nari |
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So are you guys basically saying that trigger points don't exist (at least in the context by which they are commonly explained)? What about the common referall paterns that can be elicited in a majority of subjects?
Are trigger points really just issues with the central and peripheral nervous system; some sort of "neural lesions?"
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#10 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Hi Keats
What do you think, having read the paper?
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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sproinger
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Keats, trigger points do exist , that is , there are certainly points in muscle bellies that with digital and other pressures applied to those points, observations of tone decreases ( and sometimes the reproduction and reduction in referred pain ) to those muscles can often be made. These situations give massage therapists of various levels, hours of fun and games in their treatment lives, by offering what appears to be useful therapeutic change. What I refer to in my post above is an attempt to answer the question, "why is it so " ( I'm always tempted to say this with a Julius Sumner Miller voice ).
It is clear to those whose interests and experience includes the restoration of normal spinal joint/nerve function, that in the process of undoing, as it were, the results of what I term protective responses, leading to joint hypomobility and irritation of nerves, that trigger points are firmly linked phenomena. In plainer speak , when I fix the spine, the trigger points go away, along with the kind of altered behaviour , sensation and other observations pertinant to the complained of limb problem. It seems then, that going hard directly at the muscle, by and large, is a time wasting effort , where therapists attention is directed at the effect , rather than the cause. Alternate views do exist on the nature of that "central" irritation, some expressed on these pages. What is common to a "central first "theme however , is that neurology is the common denominator That when adressed , is often found to have been the origin of pain/dysfunction and indeed the only theme worth attention.
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vox clamantis in desertoGeoff Fisher Physiotherapist |
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It seems that all sorts of treatment are aimed at resolving this 'muscle problem'; the origin of this pain is not considered. Total lack of evidence that it is due to some microtrauma, as pointed out in the above paper, should convince TP enthusiasts to consider the origin of any pain, not just some supposed local problem.
One of the classic signs of referred pain is around the deltoid, often near the MT junction, and mobilisation of the cervical spine often resolves this rapidly. (Ginger, I know you will say almost always). Diane's DNM techniques also resolves those pesky pain spots. Instinctive movement as described by Barrett and others does the same. Neurodynamically-focused movements ditto. Ginger's CM techniques ditto. Perhaps one way of looking at these options is to think about the simplest method, based on pain physiology as it is known at present, which will resolve the problem/s. The issue with local attention to the painful spots with the assumption that they are muscle-based is that temporary pain relief is quite possible but surely our aim is to provide more than that. By that statement, I mean the person who keeps going back ad infinitum to a practitioner who simply offers muscle-based temporary pain relief, is not being appropriately managed. Keats, the phrase "neural lesion" suggests a pathology exists, which is not accurate. Think instead, of heightened sensitivity of the nerve/s. Keep reading this forum Persistent Pain Problems, and some of the posts earlier on (it started in 2004) if you are not sure what sensitivity really means in a physiological sense. Nari |
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I think that Nervous System is the key element within the techiques Nari mentioned above . I think that the Trigger point is a Sensitive within the nervous system not the muscle ( however I do not negate the muscle completely , I do not consider it passive completely ) .When we mobilize the Cervical ,we actually mobilizing the nervous system .However , I think David Buttler mentioned Trigger points in his book as If it real exist . Trigger Points are fired because of stress physically and psychologically ,just a matter of Nervous System reaction .
cheers Emad
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Having studied with Dr David Simons and being somewhat of a myofascist myself, I thought I should rise to the defense of the myofascial community. Below is a link to a relatively recent update on Simon's trigger point hypothesis. Certainly, the academic and clinical myofascial community (small though it may be) is interested in all aspects of pain physiology. Jay SHah at the NIH has shown in trigger points, through a micropipette analysis technique, the presence of an acid Ph, and elevated levels of multiple nociceptive sensitizing chemicals including histamine, bradykinin, IL3, IL6 and others. Of course, this may be the end result of nervous system dysfunction and not the result of local muscle dysfunction. Clearly they are linked. I personally have found elimination of of trigger points and correction of biomechanical issues very effective. I believe through successive treatment, I am desensitizing an upregulated nervous system. Until, I learn a more effective way to do that, I will continue. I am hopeful that some of you may have those more effective ways and can point me in the right direction to obtain some of those skills. Enjoy the article.
Bryan http://www.painpoints.com/profession...gerwdomm04.pdf |
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Hi Bryan,
I am familiar with the paper you refer to and have included it in my review of MTrPs last year. The full text is available here for members with access to the SoS. Although the paper was a very big step in strengthening the MPS hypothesis I agree that we cannot yet rule out the presence of these inflammatory mediators as a result of peripheral nerve sensitisation. If you read the review you will see that evidence supporting the effectiveness of treatments for the MTrP entity itself is somewhat ambiguous. Last edited by Luke Rickards; 02-06-2007 at 09:28 AM. |
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#16 |
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SomaSimpler
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Apparently, I dont have access to SoS. Can someone tell he how to obtain that?
Bryan |
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Hi Bryan,
There are two methods that I know of. One is post more (10 posts total and 30 days on the board after registration is normally required.) The other is to ask Bernard. He does SoS rehab and can get people there faster than they would otherwise do on their own. |
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard |
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#19 |
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Thanks Bernard. I was able to access the article.
I am still finding my way around this incredible web site. It is packed with information. Bryan |
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I was reading in David Butler's Book, The Sensitive Nervous System when I remembered Emad had suggested that David made reference to trigger points in his book and he does. Here's the quote that I happened upon, "Many trigger points may be small AIGS in cutaneous nerves struggling with their relationship to fascia and muscle and postural demands." He then refers to his section on "notalgia paraesthetica," in Chapter 15.
Just a FYI to add to the topic. Karie |
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#21 |
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Thanks Karie ;
That is correct ,however I did not read the Book ,but seems I picked it from the Book contents , I can not remember well from where I picked that . notalgia paraesthetica ? can you please clear his view regarding that ? cheers Emad
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#22 |
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Karie
What is an AIGS? I have ordered Butler's book and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. Bryan |
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#23 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Bryan, an AIGS is an abnormal impulse generating site. Nerve axons that are stressed (physically, either mechanically or chemically) develop too many receptor sites, sensitive to substances (sensitization from DRG out). These take three days to settle completely (physiologically clear, normalize) upon successful treatment.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#24 |
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AIGS is the acronym for an Abnormal Impulse Generating Site. Here's a few threads on the topic.
Pulling the Trigger Bits and Bites on AIGS
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Foam rollers are almost manadatory for any athletic training facilty to iron out trigger points.
I know its a nervous sytem phemonenon. Is there any effective way to target the nervous sytem or the cause in this case? Anoop |
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Foam rollers? Ironing out TrPs sounds helpful, as long as it is realised what the rollers are actually doing. Sounds very ectodermal to me.
We all have trigger points, and if anyone pokes somebody's arm, back, neck or leg there will be some degree of tenderness at certain spots. To do that the ectoderm is being poked at. They become a problem when the nervous system is sensitised - ie they become AIGS, which can be very uncomfortable. Axons are not meant to develop receptor sites, but act as messengers. What is pertinent is the fact these sites do not have to be treated locally for good effect. If someone has painful sites around the neck or traps, for instance, mobilising the relevant nerve half a metre away can alter that sensation. DNM, without localising the site, can do the same. Dry needling (I have no reason to doubt its effectiveness) is probably an invasive alternative, if this is so desired. Patients have reported good pain relief from their 'sore spots' after they exprience ideomotion. If one has a cranky nail/AIGS or two, they don't need to be hit with hammers. Nari |
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I just thought I would post these recent articles from Archives of PM&R. This is Jay Shah's follow up paper and David Simons' response. I agree with Luke's earlier comments that finding abnormalities in the periphery in the area of Trps does not prove the etiology is not central or simply sensitization in the periphery.
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#29 |
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I gave the articles a quick read. What struck me most was the insistance the authors all have in making the assumption that they are feeling or testing muscle tissue. I have a few thoughts:
1. They seem to not realize that there could be neural structures inside some of those "taut bands" they are looking to study. 2. They talk about the substances seeping through tissue and bothering it, but they fail to mention that these 11 substances are secreted by peripheral afferent nerves, not just registered by them. 3. They don't hook in the plausible hypothesis that the accumulation of these substances to a critical level bringing on nociception, might be due to a deficiency of venous drainage carrying them off in a timely manner. This could be due to mechanical reasons, or local neural dysfunction (local neural autonomic dysregulation in a small zone). 4. They fail to mention or perhaps have never considered that the neural tissue weaving through muscle as well as through everything else, and the nervi nervorum of the nerves themselves, is likely the most "sensitive" and most likely to send a warning signal or produce a "tender" spot. I should think these are all possible confounding factors to their "theory" of trigger points and would have to be ruled out first, but it seems to me they haven't done so. They are still thinking structure, not function. Furthermore they are thinking of the nervous system but only to justify operating from a mesodermal mindset, not as a sensitive structure in its own right. Their mindset appears to be that the neural tissue is there to serve muscle "sensation", not the other way round.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#30 |
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Ginger you wrote here: By reducing hypertonicity of parazygoapophyseal muscle and restoring normal facet movement behaviour , immediate reductions in these distal muscle "trigger point" indicators are seen.
First you say that the muscles are not to be blamed and then on the other hand the parazygoapophyseal muscle is the culprit. Kind of odd it sounds to me. I can say also vice versa if I treat the Trp of a certain muscle I found hypertonic paraspinal muscles go soft as well. The Body is not a one way street. I am going for the option that the nerves are cranky. |
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#31 | |
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Another point:
The Chen study that proposes a method of visualizing soft tissue dysfunction (taut bands) with chevron patterns, etc., to objectify their existence, make them visible to those who can't "feel" them, looks good. I don't deny the existence of taut bands. I presume imaging will pick up whatever it picks up. My issue is with the suggestion that taut bands, or the visualized patterns bouncing off them, are of or from "muscle", as implied by this statement: Quote:
There is a lot of other contractile stuff in the body besides striated "muscle". Smooth muscle comprises a lot of the tubing that reaches all through striated muscle. It is driven by neurochemical stimulation, and/or sympathetic innervation. The author leaves the reader to think that no other kind of soft tissue but muscle exists, or might exhibit contractility. I should think that a vascular (small, local) autonomic dysregulation could set up quite a distress signal that could manifest as hardened or taut bands that are palpable. Especially along nerve trunks/tunnels. I would have no objection to the substitution of the word "contractile" for the word "muscular".
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#32 |
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Or even the term "pathophysiology." In my mind there is nothing pathological in general about the protective mechanism that generates the phenomenon of TrP's.
Although, I guess this normal response could eventually generate a pathological state of the local tissue, given enough time and local change.
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Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page |
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#33 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#34 |
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sproinger
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Baecker, muscles involved in the protective ( increased ) tone around facet joints are not culprits so much as participants in a series of events. Those events I maintain are ideally rationalised , in my view, as providing a usefull ,if potentially painfull service. The conduct then of muscles near to these joiunts , when altered and tone reduced , reduces and ultimately eliminates , irritants to nerves. The mechanism of change , using Cm , is via the joint and its complex of nerves. I rationalise that changes seen to distal behaviour of muscles ( and other structures ) is due to a reduction in nerve irritation local to the facet joints . More complex feedback ( "loops " ) within the nerves themselves may certainly play a role. Either way muscles do not behave according to their own private program , they do whatever they do at the effect of nerves and nerve related behaviour.
cheers
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vox clamantis in desertoGeoff Fisher Physiotherapist |
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#35 |
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SomaSimpler
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Diane and others,
Your comments are most appropriate. I have forwarded some of the ideas to Jay Shah at NIH, and again invited him to join SS and perhaps consider that online interview regarding myofascial trigger point theory. As both his invitro micropipette analysis and the MRE technique are validated, they may prove useful in documenting and studying somewhat objectively tissue/neuro changes with other manual techniques. Let's hope he responds. Bryan |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Hi Ginger,
You may be interested in the podcast debate between Tim Flynn and Chris Maher. After the introduction, the podcast opens with a Tim Flynn soundbite Quote:
I linked to the conversation here
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Some comments from Nic.
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#38 |
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sproinger
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Hi Jon, often it seems the lives of researchers and academics are set towards seemingly endless debate on topics where the outcome is merely to confirm the obvious. It seems to be this way with the manip vs low velocity joint treatments debate.
The difference in outcomes would be obvious to anyone whose skills included a variety of joint related treatments, both high and low velocity. For myself there is no doubt , that from a clinical perspective, manips have short term shallow effect, CM has long term deeper effects. Were I to choose a technique on the basis of ensuring I had more work and business to do, I would choose manipulation. I very rarely use this method however as CM provides what the patient invariably seeks, a return to pain free normal movement and function.
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vox clamantis in desertoGeoff Fisher Physiotherapist |
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#39 | |
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I know I'm late to the party, but reading through the Quintner and Cohen article, I stumbled over the following:
Quote:
Is this discussed in the referenced papers as I was not able to locate the full length texts? 33. Stewart JD, Aguayo AJ. In: Dyck PJ, Thomas PK, Lambert EH, eds. Peripheral neuropathy. 2nd ed. Vol 2. Philadelphia: Saunders, 1984:1435-57. 34. Lundborg G, Dahlin LB. The pathophysiology of nerve compression. Hand Clin 1992;8:215-27. |
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#40 |
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It depends where along which nerve we're talking. In the dorsal horn, segments can talk to each other. That means a lot of other branches of other entire nerve roots can become involved. Out somewhere in a single branch of the neural tree of a single nerve root, other twigs on the same branch can become interested/affected, just by regular sensitization at just one segment in the dorsal horn.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#41 |
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The mechanisms aren't difficult to understand, and in a system like this location doesn't mean much.
Of much greater import is the origin of the pain. |
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#42 |
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Just to be clear, my comment wasn't intended to question the premise of the article, just a matter of understanding.
Thank you for the replies, they were both helpfull. |
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#43 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Here is Paul Ingraham's "coming out" essay - coming out as a trigger point skeptic: Trigger point doubts • Why I feel the need to challenge the clinical concept of trigger points
Quote:
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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| The Following User Says Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post: | Jos (02-04-2012) |
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#44 |
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life long learner, clinician, and instructor
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Wow, that is simply a great article that Paul wrote on so many levels.
For someone to step down from his "bread and butter" and risk the negative fallout from it because of his commitment to science is unfortunately almost unheard of in this day in age. I've always enjoyed and respected Paul's stuff (had some trouble with the TrP stuff), but my respect for him just increased 10 fold. Paul, I know you read here every now and then, just wanted to let you know how impressed I am with your commitment to science and not personal gains. It needs to be applauded and shouted out from the roof tops to get more to do the same.
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Kory Zimney, PT, DPT http://koryzimney.blogspot.com "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei |
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| The Following User Says Thank You to zimney3pt For This Useful Post: | Alice Sanvito (10-05-2012) |
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#45 | |
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Quote:
ANdy
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#46 |
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SomaSimpler
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Wanted to bump this great article and Paul's blogpost.
Quintner is by the way commenting on Lorimers blogpost about catastrophizing at the moment.
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Adam Bjerre "We don't treat anatomy, we treat processes." D. Butler "When we wish to perfect our senses, neuroplasticity is a blessing; when it works in the service of pain, plasticity can be a curse." N. Doidge |
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