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#1 | ||
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I linked to this paper last year though it was written in 2003. I haven't seen an update of this or any significant treatment of it though it seems relavant to PT among other fields of study. I still pick it up from time to time to contemplate some of the concepts.
I've been interested in the concept of goals and plans in general and this blog entry from the folks at the Overcoming Bias blog caught my interest and got me digging out the paper I linked to in the first paragraph. Here's what Gallese and Metzinger had to say about goals: Quote:
Quote:
Any thoughts?
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#2 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I decided to post this abstract here but I thought of Diane's recent insights about eating when I read it.
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#3 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
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Jon, goal setting here is done by the patient (or close others if patient can't communicate) and the PT may temper it if it is totally unrealistic. I am not sure how that concerns the PT/pt relationship; or maybe I am just being dense tonight.?
Nari |
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#4 |
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What an interesting abstract Jon.
After spending plenty of time in Asia, where breakfast is free from sugary cereals, fruit or toast, I remember questioning my need for particular foods at particular times of the day. I now happily eat whatever I really feel like at any meal. I astounded my friends by ordering goat curry for breakfast a little while ago. |
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#5 |
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Hi Nari,
Having worked in occ rehab for 7 years therabouts, I am only too familiar with defining goals. Ideally, yes the goal is set by the patient. In private work, the PT or other therapist only needs to modify the goal, as you suggest, when it is unrealistic. In my experience, occ rehab is there for employers, insurers and any other parties than the patient. If the patient benefits, that is considered a great, but not necessary result. That is why I got out of the system. What I wanted to do to achieve best results (eg extra pain education/support to patients) would only be approved if it represented financial value to the ones paying the money. In this situation, I and many other people in the system felt compromised. We were also perceived by the patient as working for the insurer/employer and by the insurer/employer as being too soft on the patient. I agree with Jon that goal definition, where there is a third - or fourth - party involved, can definitely affect the therapeutic relationship, Jane |
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#6 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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I agree with Jane. Once I realized how much I disliked working in insurance practices because of how they were set up, about mid-80's, I became determined to escape one day. I did, finally. It took several more years. Insured PT is thoroughly compromising on nearly every level of professional existance. (Insured medical care is an entirely different story - we have to get over seeing our profession so firmly wedded to or beholden to or so caught in the orbit of the medical one.)
Each PT who evolves and grows will realize how confining our social role as defined by insurance, IS, and how contradictory. Of course the patients come first. If we do our job right we learn what motivates them and help them get there. People are not herd animals and really, they don't respond all that well inside, to being treated as such. They are troop animals, and need to feel in alpha charge of their lives, however briefly, especially to get rid of persistent pain. They need a model sometimes, and if "their PT" is a mere flunkey in an insurance practice, not be able to understand let alone model this crucial bit consciously nor non-consciously, the patient won't get much from the encounter on any authentic transformative treatment crucible level. I see therapeutic contact metaphorically as induced fit hypothesis. No reaction will take place without it. Insurance constraints are countercatalyst to me.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire Last edited by Diane; 17-08-2007 at 05:02 PM. |
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#7 | ||
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Hi Luke,
Quote:
To anyone: The abstract I posted was interesting to me as it explicitly discussed that goals become activated/inactivated highlighting that they are not literally things that exist in objective world. I thought the statement Quote:
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris Last edited by Jon Newman; 17-08-2007 at 06:13 PM. |
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#8 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
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Thanks Jane and Diane. Another look into the greasy world of insurance.
By the way, I grew up eating curry for breakfast quite often. And leftover roast beef; or whatever was around from the day before. It doesn't matter much if one is not bound to rules about what to eat when. Nari |
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#9 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
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Lately I've been eating fresh cooked salmon for breakfast. Mmmmmm. With lime juice.
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Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
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#10 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I've been contemplating the relationship between goals and beliefs. It seems to me that goals are more closely related to ideas than beliefs. I suppose that is why goals may change so easily.
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#11 | |
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Quote:
I think a common example of this is patients being highly motivated to do 'homework' when pain levels are high but as soon as it reaches a bearable level they suddenly forget all about it. |
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#12 | ||
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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So I finally received the full text of the abstract I posted earlier. Here's are some excerpts.
Quote:
Quote:
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#13 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#14 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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On another forum there was some talk about motivation and I'd like to take up the topic on this forum, in this thread. What is motivation?
The impetus of the question is this article.
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris Last edited by Jon Newman; 01-02-2008 at 02:44 PM. |
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#15 | |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Quote:
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#16 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I'm just adding an interesting read to this thread for reference.
Modulation of cognition by emotion and emotion by cognition
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#17 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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For our reference, here is another useful entry by Deric Bownds-- Neural Correlates of Desire
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#18 | |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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A relatively new paper from Aziz-Zadeh and Damasio.
Quote:
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris Last edited by Jon Newman; 19-10-2008 at 02:17 AM. |
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#19 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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This is the best I could find on the nerual correlates of belief. Some questions I'm considering: If one of those processes has more influence on movements, actions and behaviors is it desires (see post 17) or beliefs that wins the horse race? Which of these is more ammenable to change?
If anyone has compelling evidence I'd love to be pointed to a reference. My current belief is that desire wins the horse race but beliefs are more malleable.
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris Last edited by Jon Newman; 25-11-2008 at 04:39 AM. |
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#20 |
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Interesting papers. After blogging about the lack of evidence for pacing, I started to consider the weight of evidence for other common tools for pain management. Goals and goal-setting came up because in most of the contracts I work under, setting goals is a requirement. YET I wonder whether there is much evidence of the efficacy of goal-setting as a clinical tool for clients with chronic pain? I know I use them as part of my clinical reasoning, and I know I introduce them to clients, but - where's the evidence? I haven't found much theoretical or empirical research on the science of setting goals, apart from Locke and Latham's work in industrial/organisational psychology. Anyone else have any literature on the subject?
Locke, E. A., & Latham, G. P. (2002). Building a practically useful theory of goal setting and task motivation: A 35-year odyssey. American Psychologist Vol 57(9) Sep 2002, 705-717.
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#21 |
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Found this link to the paper by Locke and Latham that Bronnie referenced in the post preceeding this one.
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Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page |
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#22 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Thanks for this link Cory. I'll check it out and report back with notes from the margins.
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#23 |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Cory,
I did read that article and made some notes but then never got back to this thread. I'll see if I can find the paper laying around. In the meantime, I just found this article which may help me. From goals to actions and vice versa by Pezzulo, et.al.
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"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
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#24 |
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Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. And thanks for the link!
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Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page |
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#25 | |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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I just read Action and Habit at the Less Wrong blog which led me to the paper (linked to in the comments section) Stress-induced modulation of instrumental behavior: From goal-directed to habitual control of action. It's an interesting paper and worth reading. What I stumble on is trying to translate the words and concepts (e.g. "instrumental") being used here to other words and concepts I've become familiar with. Also, there's this
Quote:
I was thrown (into cog. dis.) by the way that sentence is written because it suggests that habitual (teleonomic) behavior is behavior without a goal, but that just doesn't seem to make sense (to me). That's because I was understanding "behavior" to necessarily be goal directed (even if the goal wasn't a conscious one.) Last edited by Jon Newman; 11-06-2011 at 06:17 PM. |
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#26 | |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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Quote:
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#27 |
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Goals are SMART
Specific (to the impairment) Measurable Attainable Relevant (to the impairment) Time specific As in salmon (from a previous reply)... I will eat salmon once a week this month! Mmmmm |
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#28 | |
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Enjoy a moment of whimsy
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