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Old 25-06-2008, 10:28 PM   #1
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Default A theoretical treatise on the corrective mechanisms of ideomotion

Recently, I’ve been intensely wrestling with possible explanatory mechanisms for the changes observed with ideomotion. I’ve noticed several posts on the board that talk about its effects on neurodynamics or neural tension. Here, I wanted to dive deeper into my thoughts on the how’s and why’s of this correction process, as well as the nature and purpose of ideomotion itself.

First, I think it is important to point out the role of muscles in neural tension. To my knowledge, nervous tissue is noncontractile, therefore requiring the contraction of surrounding muscle tissue to change its form (although deformation may also come from gravity acting on the skeletal structure). Thus, a nerve is unlikely to be abnormally tensed or deformed without some abnormality in the relevant muscles. With that said, I recognize that neural tension is ultimately driven by the nervous system, as it directs the actions and resting levels of muscular tension. I think there is sufficient evidence, discussed elsewhere on this site, for nerves serving as the most likely peripheral source for many of the painful conditions we work with. Most of these probably involve some element of both chemical and mechanical changes, which may often act synergistically (eg, tension may reduce blood flow and result in ischemia and metabolic changes). So the ten-dollar question is this: how is it that ideomotion functions to reduce pain?

In response to this question, I’m hesitant to accept overly simplistic mechanical explanations such as “the nerves are untwisting or unwinding.” Anatomically speaking, I fail to see how nerves could become severely tangled. I do, however, understand how tense muscles and related chemical alterations might serve to change both the resting length and chemical environment of neural tissue. This has led me to the conclusion that changes in resting muscle tone precede the changes we see in the health of the peripheral nervous system. As we proceed in answering our primary question, it is necessary to explore how ideomotion functions to restore normal muscle tonus. Answering this question will require some explaining.

I’m going to start by simplifying, for purposes of ease, Cory’s discussion involving Damasio’s ideas about self. Here, I will offer two primary constructs: the current self and the ideal/desired self. At the risk of prematurely letting the cat of the bag, I propose that ideomotion serves to move one from one’s current state of self toward a more ideal or desirable state. To understand the nature of this ideal state, I will consult the work of Moshe Feldenkrais.

Feldenkrais believed movement should be efficient, adaptable, smooth, and effortless. His conception of the “ideal self” was one that moved in such ways. He proposed that his approach served to eliminate superfluous movement, which could also be described as inefficient, sloppy, uncoordinated, and/or nondifferentiated. Having regularly practiced and experienced Feldenkrais exercises, I can readily appreciate their effectiveness in this regard. It is also important to note that Feldenkrais attributed such changes to augmentation of the CNS, particularly the brain. To my knowledge, he spoke little of peripheral mechanisms.

Getting back to ideomotion, I have experienced the fact that ideomotor movement can produce similar changes to those seen with Feldenkrais work, except much more quickly and efficiently. To this point, I have suggested that these changes are largely related to alterations in resting muscle tone, which is ultimately regulated by the brain. The proposed goal of these changes is to move us closer to the ideal self as described by Damasio and Feldenkrais, which also happens to have the greatest “adaptive potential” (see Dorko).

Now, I’d like to speculate as to why we witness the types of movements that we observe with ideomotion. For those who haven’t witnessed such movements, they range from very subtle, such as a muscle twitch, to larger dancelike motions entailing weaving, oscillating, turning, and/or twisting motions (among others). My suggestion is that these movements serve as “refreshers” of the ideal self’s repertoire of sensations and motor patterns (I think Butler talks about “feeding the brain” or “feeding the representations”).

What distinguishes the capability of ideomotion (versus volitional movements) to move the neural representation of the current self toward that of the ideal self is its quality. Ideomotion contains all of the qualities Feldenkrais sought in his conception of ideal movement (see above). Thus, as one ideomotates (neologism?) through a panoply of turns, twists, and positions, it allows the current neural representation of that movement (the feel, the tension, the amount of effort, and other factors) to be rewritten in the language of the ideal self. As an analogy, one might compare this to the changes that occur from a rough draft to final draft of a book. The former is sloppy, awkward, and, well, rough, whereas the latter is more polished, coherent, and appropriate.

What is responsible for the quality we see in ideomotion? Since the movement is nonvolitional, it is naturally free of the superfluous effort we observe in much of our volitional movements. It may be that ideomotion actually taps the knowledge/coding of the ideal self (some my call this instinctive wisdom or natural intelligence) in order to reconstruct the current self in its (that is, the ideal self’s) own image. If this is the case, it should come as no surprise that those in the field of somatics (as well as the contemplative religious traditions) use terms such as “remembering, awakening, awareness, etc.” Is it possible that ideomotion allows us to experience our ideal selves, who we really are, devoid of the abstract, illusory labels we give ourselves?

Hopefully, this discussion helps to move us closer to a theoretical understanding of the mechanisms behind the corrective actions we observe with ideomotion.

Thoughts? Comments?

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Old 25-06-2008, 11:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physio-philosopher View Post
Thus, a nerve is unlikely to be abnormally tensed or deformed without some abnormality in the relevant muscles. With that said, I recognize that neural tension is ultimately driven by the nervous system, as it directs the actions and resting levels of muscular tension.
Wouldn't the brain direct muscular action in an effort to relieve abnormal tension (and the resulting hypoxia) in the peripheral nerves? What about the feeling of discomfort in your buttocks and the urge to move when reclining in a sofa for too long? What about the extreme positions of discomfort used in torture? These are situations where neural tension and hypoxia could be caused by external pressure / lack of movement / prolonged positions without any abnormality in muscles. What is your definition of abnormality?
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Old 25-06-2008, 11:07 PM   #3
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Yes. Thank you for your addition.
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Old 26-06-2008, 12:43 AM   #4
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Drew,

I've much to say on what you wrote and I'm looking forward to this discussion. I'm going to have to come back, probably tonight, to do that though.

For now, here are a couple of threads that you'll find to be on topic, I think.

Cortical maps

and

Exploration as a context for pain
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Old 26-06-2008, 01:52 AM   #5
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Great Thread!

I don't accept your hypothesis of abnormal "muscle tone" being a major causative factor for neurogenic pain. At least we'd need to find a better explanation of how this might work, or some evidence to support it.

What about those people with severely disordered "muscle tone" as in cerebral palsy or stroke? According to your model they should be in agony but they often are not. Something else must be going on here.

NB: Discussing "muscle tone" as a concept tends to be problematic (just take a look at the neuro PT literature over the past 20 years) Problems of what it is, how to define it, what is "normal" etc, etc.
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Old 26-06-2008, 02:10 AM   #6
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Top exercise physiologists and personal training sorts refer to tone as "the t word" and don't speak kindly of those who refer to it. It is, to them, a meaningless term.
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Old 26-06-2008, 02:16 AM   #7
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Gil, Thanks for your thoughts. My original point was to question the way we throw around terms such as "neural tension" when it doesn't provide a clear picture of how that can anatomically be the case (ie, what is pulling the nerve into a tense state). I certainly would agree that there are other causes of neurogenic pain such as chemical or physical insult, perhaps following an injury. In many cases though, the healing process is never completed and what may remain, among other things, are movement dysfunctions (such as those pertaining to Hanna's sensory-motor amnesia), elevated muscle tension, and nervous tissue irritation. In such instances, rather than the mm tension being causative, it may simply be concomitant and contribute to the persistence of neural irritation. EMG studies pertaining to muscle tension in those filing for worker's compensation seem to point to at least a correlation between an inability to return to the resting level of tension and pain. Here is a good overview: www.macses.ucsf.edu/research/allostatic/notebook/muscle.html Studies pertaining to pain, the psychosocial stress-tension link, and EMG biofeedback may also apply here. With respect to your CP point, I would respond the pain is always a complex bio-psycho-social phenomenon, and tension alone may be insufficient to cross the nervous system's pain threshold.

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Old 26-06-2008, 03:50 AM   #8
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Drew,
Muscle tone, whether hypertonic, hypotonic or "normal" is dependent on the status of the relevant nerves, not the other way round. In nonpathological states I agree with Barrett - it is a rather useless word.

In a stroke, eg, muscle tone is greatly altered depending on the site and extent of the CVA's effect on the CNS. Pain may or may not be present, but it occurs independently of any hyper/hpotonicity.
In tension headaches, muscular response occurs after the nervous system has decided there is a threat of some kind and it throws out a defence mechanism. The threat can be actual or not.

The conscious interpretation of this threat/defence mechanism is so variable amongst us mammals we will probably never know for sure.

Neural tension is not so much a concept of 'knottiness' but a measure of current sensitivity parameters, and the adaptive potentials that Barrett talks about. It is considered (a la Butler) that healing is always complete after 6+ weeks, but the function around the site of healing could end up compromised, if we are talking about injury leading to scar tissue. Then again, compromised function does not directly= pain, just as weakness does not = pain. Other factors are at play here, as you suggested. Abnormal neurodynamics and heightened sensitivity are two.

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Old 26-06-2008, 04:10 AM   #9
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Nari, I second your post. Given what I've learned in the normal/abnormal thread, I'd only add (question) whether we gain anything from from labeling the neurodynamic. It's simply a neurodynamic resulting in pain. Referring to a neurodynamic as normal, abnormal or by applying the word tension implies we know more than might be possible about the underlying mechanisms. Not that we can't make very good educated guesses mind you.
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Old 26-06-2008, 04:18 AM   #10
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Drew,
I agree that the term "neural tension" doesn't present a clear picture of what is actually occurring on a physiological and mechanical level, which is why the term has been abandoned for the more appropriately descriptive "neurodynamics" by both Butler and Shacklock.

The squeezing and stretching of nerves by muscles is only a parcel of the factors that lead to the abnormal neurodynamic state, which, as I understand the term, is a consequence of a heightened state of sensitivity (they aren't distinct events, are they Nari?).

There seem to be a lot semantics, definitions and carts and horses that need to be sorted out, and I hope this thread can help do that.
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Old 26-06-2008, 04:28 AM   #11
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John, the semantics will drive us all to the grave sooner or later.

Quote:
The squeezing and stretching of nerves by muscles is only a parcel of the factors that lead to the abnormal neurodynamic state
I'm still going to maintain my position that the neurodynamic state referred to here may (or may not) be normal. It might be better to call it an undesirable neurodynamic? But now I'm starting to feel lost again...got...to stop...thinking!
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Old 26-06-2008, 04:55 AM   #12
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Something to remember when we delve into what might give rise to abnormal neurodynamic: every kind of cell in the whole body is contractile as long as it contains actin and myosin. As far as I'm aware, only erythrocytes do not have these contractile proteins. Bone is usually kept stiff with mineral. That means that there is still a lot of diverse mesoderm that can contract around neural structures that has nothing whatever to do with ordinary muscle, be it tense or not. I.e., there is a lot of smooth muscle. A lot of it comprises the vascular system. Smooth muscle is controlled by autonomics. Autonomic fibers conveyed into the periphery, into skin, are functionally part of the same nerves that convey sensory nociceptive information the other way. Dysfunction of some vasculature somewhere because of some minor neural output mistake at a spinal cord or ventral horn level could ostensibly affect the O2 levels/nutrition of /nociceptive input from neurons everywhere downstream.

The more I find out about neuron structure, the wrappings, the glia, the dorsal horn, the more I realize I do not know about nerve physiology, channel-opathies, all these things that are mostly central and have to do with synaptic protein expression which can affect output through the PNS enormously, and also (as nociception) sensory-discriminative input at more rostral regions.

Anyway. My point is that there's way more to it than just regular muscles and their behavior whether conscious or non.
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Old 26-06-2008, 05:52 AM   #13
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John,

Agreed - they are not distinct events, more a happy (no, unhappy) dichotomy of two names that get bandied around in the literature. Neural tension is still so widely used that it gets confusing as to whether someone means an abnormal neurodynamic or the 90s tension...and doesn't necessarily think they are synonymous.

As Eric implied, the distortion of nerves by muscles and resulting anoxia may produce a neurodynamic state which one could call 'normal' or just OK. In other words, the owner isn't affected by it to any degree. Who knows. But if this leads to increased sensitivity over time........?

Perhaps a collection of terminologies could be set up so there's a reasonable chance everyone gets to know the semantical carts and horses running around the neurodynamic forest.

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Old 26-06-2008, 06:06 AM   #14
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Terminology doesn't need to impair our discussion too much if we describe in more detail what we actually mean

Is this a plausible (oversimplified) chain of events for some painful problems?
-Mechanical Deformation (I like that term, thanks Barrett) affecting nerve(s)
-Anoxia
-Increased Sensitivity (peripheral) & Pain
-Decreased movement, increased guarding, fear avoidance, etc
-Increased central sensitivity
-More Pain


any input?
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Old 26-06-2008, 12:23 PM   #15
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Thank you all for your insights. After posting, I realized that I was largely wrestling the Barrett's frequent use of "mechanical deformation," which I was portraying as frequently dependent on surrounding muscle tension.

John, I'm glad to see another Indiana resident on the board, I live in Elkhart.

Eric, I agree with you that neurodynamic seems to explain very little. It seems to merely shift the focus from anatomical (ie, neural tension) to kinesiological. If I had to choose, I think I'd go with something like neurosensitivity, although that might not sound orthopedic enough for those coining such terms.

Diane, thank you for bringing to my attention the potential for nervous tissue itself to be contractile, as well as your comments about smooth muscle. As you note, our clean cut ideas about anatomy and phys can often lead us astray. Together, your observations help us to think more subtley about mechanical deformation, beyond "tight traps" or "tight scalenes."

Regardless of the terminology we use to describe adverse peripheral changes, I think the point still stands that they are often centrally driven and the effects of ideomotion arise largely from changes in the brain, which, in turn, serve to augment the periphery.
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Old 26-06-2008, 02:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Eric, I agree with you that neurodynamic seems to explain very little. It seems to merely shift the focus from anatomical (ie, neural tension) to kinesiological. If I had to choose, I think I'd go with something like neurosensitivity, although that might not sound orthopedic enough for those coining such terms.
Drew,
I actually think neurodynamic explains quite a bit. I don't understand what you mean by kinesiological.

As for the original topic. I think you'll find the subject of this old thread interesting. A Consumatory Act
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Old 26-06-2008, 03:27 PM   #17
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Hello Drew,

Quote:
It may be that ideomotion actually taps the knowledge/coding of the ideal self (some my call this instinctive wisdom or natural intelligence) in order to reconstruct the current self in its (that is, the ideal self’s) own image.


If the idea is that there is a current self which is not ideal and the ideal self does not exist (yet), how does the ideal self code anything much less have any real properties at all?

Also, once the current self is the ideal self is there a new ideal self that the current self is trying to achieve?

It seems there is a circularity here. Is there a way out?
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Old 26-06-2008, 03:53 PM   #18
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Maybe it all has something to do with being asked to access/accessing and using/learning to use an inwardly focused brain system, deliberately, and for movement instead of (just) cognition/rumination. Check out Deric Bownd's (Mindblog's) latest post.
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Old 26-06-2008, 04:28 PM   #19
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Jon, After rereading my post, I was hoping someone might point to this issue. In the original post, I used "ideal/desirable" self. The way I proceeded to describe it was a bit confusing, suggesting the ideal self as something that is always present or was developed sometime in the past. However, if we were to use the notion of the desirable self, it might involve growth beyond the ideal self. So perhaps we should posit that the body constructs a desirable self which transcends but includes (a la Ken Wilber) the ideal self. Thus, even if we were to achieve ideal, there would still be movement toward future growth/desires. Hope that makes some degree of sense, even if largely speculative.
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Old 26-06-2008, 07:00 PM   #20
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Does your theory necessitate multiple selves or would it be consistent with your theory to simply describe a current self that has desires?
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Old 26-06-2008, 08:22 PM   #21
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I can not really get into the idea of the `the body` conbstructing a desirable self. The idea of `self` is a mind-awareness construct. Any concept of `ideal` as it relates to a human body and its presentation, is a future construct-expectation of the individual, assembled out of past experiences, knowledge, hopes, insecurities, social pressures etc etc. A highly variable mess.

Movement in itself is good, and its value to the body varies with the moment; corrective when needed, highly stressed when needed, subtle or grand. Its expressions vary as the needs change; this is impossible to frame in any sort of `ideal state`.

At least, that is what I think.....
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Old 26-06-2008, 08:46 PM   #22
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Jon, Damasio seems to posit multiple selves per Cory's post. I don't know that I have a strong opinion either way, accept to suggest that the mind/body strives for integration. Thus, whether we posit one self with multiple dimensions or an emergent self that arises from multiple selves is in my estimation an issue of semantics.

Bas, Thanks for your post. It helps to remind us that we must also consider circumstances with respect to the course of appropriate action. I'm willing to part with the notion of "ideal self" and stick with "desirable self," as long as we remember that the desirable self includes processes that have proven beneficial in the past. For instance, someone who loses the ability to walk would not have to relearn the entire process, but would draw on schemas that were proven successful prior to injury. Or, someone with neck pain might utilize ideomotion to facilitate not only future results (ie, reduced pain, easier movement), but to consult stored patterns as a sort of map back home.

So in ideomotor movement, I suggest we're consulting old maps as we seek to construct new ones based on current desires, needs, and circumstances. Moreover, we're not just changing the map (ie, the brain), but also the territory (the periphery) in an ongoing dance toward a better self.
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Old 26-06-2008, 10:34 PM   #23
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I'm somewhat lost with these 'selves'.
The way I see it, a person with dysfunction and pain has a brain/CNS which is seeking correction, ie a corrective movement to resolve a perceived threat. As an organism, this would be instinctive, but not allowed if blocked by conscious thoughts of all sorts.

In other words, there is a need, and movement is a consumatory act in the same way we drink water if thirsty and eat if hungry; but the conscious self doesn't know which movements are corrective. Neither does the therapist, though we try hard by educated guesswork.

I think the conscious 'self' can wander into correction, but more often misses the boat.
Simply, the body is just a blob at the end of the brain with nervous systems so the brain knows what's going on, but I can't see a 'self' other than the conscious self which is fabricated from the environment and may conflict a lot with what is required for basic survival. The nonconscious 'self' may be far more basic than we think.

In the meantime, my conscious self tells me of a need for a coffee....nah, that's wrong, it's the nonconscious which knows the need before myself does.

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Old 26-06-2008, 11:06 PM   #24
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Nari, I can't say that I disagree with much of what you wrote. I borrowed the term "self" from Damasio and Feldenkrais, both of whom I believe have important thoughts to contribute to our discussion. The "self" I'm referring to, is really just a cortical map of the body and its processes. With respect to movement, it is a sensorimotor map, a map which can be adversely affected with an injury or perceived threat (as you say). My theory is that ideomotor movement draws on stored information, present conditions, and future desires in order to maximize survival (and survival in comfort). Simply saying that it consumates the need to escape threat doesn't connect very easily to the more foundational neuroscience. I think integrating cortical maps into our explanation bridges the gap more effectively.
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Old 26-06-2008, 11:46 PM   #25
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I definitely have an easier time connecting to the idea of a "cortical map" rather than all those different ideal and desirable selves.

Why do you think that ideomotion draws on "future desires"? As an instinctive and non-consciously driven movement I think the main desires that drive it have to do with the movement feeling good because of its corrective nature (as a stretch feels good).
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Old 27-06-2008, 12:36 AM   #26
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...and also the phenomenon of end-comfort. ?

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Old 27-06-2008, 12:40 AM   #27
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If I had to choose, I think I'd go with something like neurosensitivity
In fact, the 'correct' term for the concept under discussion is "neural mechanosensitivity".
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Old 27-06-2008, 01:01 AM   #28
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My theory is that ideomotor movement draws on stored information, present conditions, and future desires in order to maximize survival
The literature on ideomotion is now quite extensive, meaning that there is really little need for these kinds of speculations. Ideomotion 'simply' couples a present stimulus representation to the response that will produce the stimulus. Though it does involve some prior learning, it is a rather immediate event and does not involve deliberating on the past or planning for the future.

Based on what I understand from the literature, I think the movements we see during SC are the result of continuing chain of new stimulus representations rather than the 'switching on' of a special process or 'state'.
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Old 27-06-2008, 03:28 AM   #29
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Luke,

Thanks for your response. Though you describe the immediate mechanism of ideomotor movement, I'm not sure your response speaks to the whole intention of my post, which was to examine both the how and why of the corrective process. Why is it important to do so? Because theory informs both practice and further research (as I'm sure you know).

So getting to the why of ideomotor correction, are you suggesting that the introduction of a new images and movements alone is corrective? I'm not ruling this out as a possiblity, I just want to know if this is what you intended to say. I know that Feldenkrais placed a heavy emphasis on novelty and saw pretty amazing results. So it may be the case that novelty can serve to somehow "wipe the slate clean," stimulating the resetting of the system. Chaos theory may have some implications here?

Another option, which I am offering, is the notion of intention, that is, moving toward a desired goal. Let's touch on some studies that may support this notion:

In the article "Action induction through action observation," (psych research. 2004, 68:97-114.) The authors demonstrate that ideomotion arise when we observe the actions of ourselves and others (ie, externally induced actions/ideomotions). There are two processes for this: perceptual induction and intentional induction. The former is sort of a imitation, while the latter involves action that "would lead to the desired results in the observed scene." They go on: "intentional interpretations of actions may be deeply rooted in the architecture subserving their representation, since even very young infants see intentional action in physical movement." Now, I recognize that this study looks at externally induced ideomotion, but that does not rule out that similar processes (ie, intention-driven movement) are not at play internally.

Another study, "The role of feedback in the regulation of ideomotor movements" (Goryacheva, psikhologicheskiy zhurnal, vol 5(1): 1984), concludes that ideomotor movement is "regulated according to N.A. Bernstein's principle of the "reflex ring." So on to Bernstein:

The major thrust of Bernstein's thought was that "action at present is guided, if not determined, by the image of the desired future (Mirsky). http://www.hilarygray.btinternet.co.uk/12-Ukraine.pdf Berstein writes, "Each motor task finds for itself.. the needed solution of this task." This involves finding a certain sensory stimulus that carries out "the most signifcant decisive sensory corrections and to perform the re-codings needed for it." Mirsky comments, "It is the needed result, recognized as a goal, that drives and sculpts the movement at any given time while this movement is currently formed."

Though in this article, Bernstein does not discuss ideomotion, the other study concluded that his ideas were applicable to ideomotion according to their experimental results. If what they conclude is valid, and Bernstein is applicable to ideomotion, it would seem to suggest that ideomotions do not arise from randomly generated images, but, instead, are carefully monitored and adjusted toward some desired end. If we were to apply the "reflex ring" theory to ideomotion, it should be renamed "ideo-sensory-motion" (see Goryacheva).

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Old 27-06-2008, 05:00 AM   #30
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Hello,

I keep coming back to the article Without Volition by Barrett Dorko, PT. Simple Contact is about engaging the patient with their own instinctive correction.

It (ideomotor activity) is unconscious. I look to the neuroanatomical pathways for explanations of physiological changes due to it's activity. Analgesia is alteration of pain perception to an acceptable (non-noxious, non-threat) perception. I am always game to try to understand consciousness, but in the case of ideomotor I think it is not "the need to know" of the equation.

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Old 27-06-2008, 05:03 AM   #31
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Yes, and Bernstein was describing the goal-oriented nature of VOLUNTARY motion. I would think that the motor control processes for ideomotion are quite different.

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Old 27-06-2008, 07:28 AM   #32
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A few thoughts.

Regarding the thought of movement toward an "ideal self." I don't think this concept is in line with Damasio as his was more a grouping of neural correlates. What I think you are getting at with this, Drew, is more in line with the concept of "goal states."

While I don't necessarily think that "ideal self" is an accurate goal state, it would make sense that it would be ideal for us to move toward an existance with less pain.

In terms of mapping, my current take is this: we map the state we want to achieve, we map the state we are actually in. The comparison of the intended map and actual state map drives perception. We know that, in pain, these maps become increasingly incongruent and as the pain resolves, congruence returns. The neural correlate of corrective ideomotion then might be a restoration of congruence. Now, and this is speculative but there is some support for it, I feel it is possible if not probable that map incongruence either creates or is created by motivation. Therefore, in the case of pain, incongruence signals the presence of motivation to acheive congruence. The descriptor for the context, or the qualia, of this is a bit more elusive to me and is where the "goal state" comes in to play. We discussed the context of the goal of this motivation in the "exploration as a context of..." thread that I linked below.

Pain correlates with a reduction in movement variation, as Hodges and Moseley have shown. So, by association map incongruence also correlates with a loss in variability and conversely resolution with a restoration of variability. Feldenkrais was concerned with restoring movement potential. However, restoration of movement variability does not necessarily mean the mapped intended movement has been carried out. Just like having all of the right colored paints sitting next to a canvas, does not a Mona Lisa make. As Barrett likes to say, you may get lucky and in restoring movement variability you also meet the movement intention. That would be like throwing all of the correct colors at the canvas and happening to end up with a Mona Lisa by chance. Where SC differs is that it does not rely on such luck. It is concerned with the movement potential that meets the intention. It inserts the painter who creatively brings about his vision using the paints at hand.

Regarding mechanical deformation: there can be an actual deformation, which simply means an increased input, or a decreased tolerance to input, neural mechanosensitivity. Barrett has stated that he feels the increase in muscular tension is isometric that wants to become an isotonic contraction (hope I didn't butcher you there, Barrett!). In terms of Wall's 3 stages, during the protective stage, it would make sense for limitation of excursion of sensitized neural tissue to exist with isometric state of muscles, which would in turn create an increase in tension in other places of the nervous system, as is described by neurodynamics.

That's my take.
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Old 27-06-2008, 10:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Luke,
Thanks for your response. Though you describe the immediate mechanism of ideomotor movement, I'm not sure your response speaks to the whole intention of my post, which was to examine both the how and why of the corrective process.
Drew,
It wasn't an attempt to address the original post, only the statement that I put in quotation marks.
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Old 27-06-2008, 10:23 AM   #34
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Yes, and Bernstein was describing the goal-oriented nature of VOLUNTARY motion. I would think that the motor control processes for ideomotion are quite different.
Actually, much of the recent research I've read on ideomotion has been interested in its presence during goal-oriented voluntary actions.
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Old 27-06-2008, 12:40 PM   #35
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I really liked Cory's last post. It contains what we know about pain (and other dysfunctional states) and incongruent brain maps, what I consider an more appropriate vision of ideomotion's purpose and, perhaps more importantly, the importance of creativity (the patient's, of course).

Nick spoke somewhere of how auto engines have evolved over the years and how a mechanic's approach to their repair must keep pace. Now they have to know much more about electronics than fifty years ago.

Does this wonderful analogy make anyone think of how our understanding of neuroscience should drive the evolution of manual care? Of course, the body's been this way forever, as far as manual care goes, and our professions hadn't previously noticed that. Kind of embarrassing, really, but we should acknowledge that and move forward. Read A Big Mistake for more on this.
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Old 27-06-2008, 02:49 PM   #36
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Cory, Thanks much for your summary. As far as I can tell, we're saying nearly the same thing, only with different terminology. I'm more than happy to adapt your terminology, having not done the amount of homework you have with cortical maps, etc. One intention of my initial essay was to figure some of this out for myself. Fortunately, I've got the rest of you to reality check what for me are often intuitive leaps.
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Old 27-06-2008, 04:11 PM   #37
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Hi Drew,

Quote:
One intention of my initial essay was to figure some of this out for myself. Fortunately, I've got the rest of you to reality check what for me are often intuitive leaps.
I think you're using the forum exactly how it is intended. I think as a philosopher you can appreciate the importance terminology/semantics can play in furthering understanding. Using different terminology, as you experienced in this thread, did not end up communicating the same concept but it sounds like you intuited the concept fairly well.

Do you feel your ten-dollar question has been answered?
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Old 27-06-2008, 04:16 PM   #38
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Doidge calls pain "the dark side of neuroplasticity" in his book, The Brain that Changes Itself, a good read.
It fits what Cory has written in post 32. Another good book about brain maps, specifically, is Blakeslee's book.
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Old 27-06-2008, 05:19 PM   #39
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Jon,

I have no formal training in philosophy, and honestly, don't have the patience to undergo such an endeavor. I do however, enjoy thinking and speculating on life's mysteries, ideomotion is a most exciting new addition for reflection. Since I haven't used the forum much over the last several years, this was a good way to achieve a relatively quick refresher as to the (or perhaps "a") direction of thought on this board. Frankly, I'm very pleased with what I've seen thus far, impressed with the depth of understanding that seems to have accumulated since the NOI group days. From what I recall, the dots had not been clearly connected with respect to ideomotion, pain, and the nervous system, and from what I've seen in this thread, we're much farther along. So to answer your inquiry regarding the "ten-dollar" question, I'm happy with this current hypothesis, but am also excited to look more in-depth at some of the current research pertaining to ideomotion. Hopefully Luke and others will continue to share along those lines.
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Old 27-06-2008, 05:21 PM   #40
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Hi Drew,

I agree with Jon, that this is the place to sort through such things, and also that semantics becomes quite important.

Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 27-06-2008, 06:20 PM   #41
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I think it's time for me to say that ideomotion is common, ordinary, mundane, constantly present in some form as long as life endures and fragile in its full, most useful expression. In a culture that emphasizes control and cosmetics it will be largely inhibited and taboo. This control and cosmesis are both obvious and insidious, a powerful combination.

I think that ideomotoric expression on the order of Drew's drama is misleading and, ultimately, unhelpful. I always discourage it when I can.
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Old 27-06-2008, 07:17 PM   #42
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Barrett, Though I appreciate your love of poetic expression, something that may also help you converse with patients on their level, it seems you have a sort of bipolar disorder with respect to art and science. In some places you emphasize the importance of good science and theoretical reasoning, in others you disparage others' attempts because they don't fit your classification system (whatever that is). Thanks at least for withholding your comments for the end of the discussion. I'm glad this gave you a chance to express yourself in a culture that discourages such a thing, allowing you to insert your elitist sword into an otherwise enjoyable discussion. Though I admire your intellect and efforts in this field, your unfetterred propensity toward dissention and arrogance is undoubtedly hamstringing your efforts to educate others in the field. I can't imagine why you garner such a small response from those who attend your workshops.
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Old 27-06-2008, 07:44 PM   #43
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Quote:
I think that ideomotoric expression on the order of Drew's drama is misleading and, ultimately, unhelpful. I always discourage it when I can.
Drew,

I believe that Barrett is right, and that this is in no way elitist, nor arrogant. The fact is that many experiencing ideomotoric expression for correction do not have nearly the dramatic sequence that you have described. There is no way to tell what it will look like in the person in front of us. For that reason, while interesting and ultimately leading to this nice discussion, such a thing is just not the way it is often experienced. Thus it can be misleading as a guide for others, even if it accurately portrays your experience.

The drama of the effect is not what is important, but the characteristics of the effect are. That is how I read it anyways.

In fact, I would argue that this is the opposite of arrogance. Arrogance would look more like allowing such dramatic effect to get tied to him and to utilize such a thing to his benefit. Believe me, there are others in our field who do allow just this and are regarded as mystical beings of greatness by their followers.
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Old 27-06-2008, 08:00 PM   #44
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Drew,

It took you a little longer than I expected, but I expected this nonetheless.
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Old 27-06-2008, 08:17 PM   #45
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Cory,

Perhaps I misinterpreted the comment regarding "Drew's drama." If Mr. Dorko was referring to this thread, then it in fact was insulting and arrogant. If he was referring to my other thread, regarding my personal experiences with ideomotion, then, while being informative, it still displayed a questionable choice of words. If the latter is the case, I will consider attenuating my response, but his comment should have been posted on the appropriate thread.
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Old 27-06-2008, 09:26 PM   #46
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Hello Drew,

Quote:
I have no formal training in philosophy, and honestly, don't have the patience to undergo such an endeavor. I do however, enjoy thinking and speculating on life's mysteries, ideomotion is a most exciting new addition for reflection.
Well you're at least an arm chair philosopher and in good company. I can understand your enthusiasm from personal experience and I hope you are able to maintain it.

I'm not certain which thread Barrett was referring to for sure but linking ideomotor activity to the attainment of an ideal self is (at least) dramatic. That said, Barrett did not imply that you had an unfettered propensity to being a drama queen or something along those lines.

I think the thread has been helpful over all and I'm glad you started it.

I'm confused about time lines here. You mentioned:

Quote:
Since I haven't used the forum much over the last several years, this was a good way to achieve a relatively quick refresher as to the (or perhaps "a") direction of thought on this board.
which surprised me because I thought you were a new visitor with a recent interest in the topic. Perhaps you'd consider putting together a short introduction in the Welcome forum.
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Old 27-06-2008, 11:00 PM   #47
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Thanks Jon, We all need a little nurturing and encouragement once and a while I can see why the timeline might be a bit confusing. My "personal experience with ideomotion" thread spells out some of it. Ever since somasimple was spawned from NOI, I have not followed the forum until a couple weeks ago.
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Old 28-06-2008, 04:46 AM   #48
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SomaSimple might be regarded as a nurturing place in the sense that it nurtures rigor in learning and reasoning. It is not a place to have one's ego stroked, though it certainly can be encouraging to learn along with and from others.

Drew, I am curious about your reaction to the phrase "Drew's drama." Would it have been more acceptable to you had Barrett said "Drew's story" or "Drew's narrative" or perhaps "Drew's profound philosophical insights"? Your reaction seemed to me to cross the line between argument about ideas and personal attack about character. As you know, that is not for this board.

I think your phenomenological account or subjective experience is interesting and, perhaps, helpful. It could also be misleading. And that is where I think Barrett's experience and intellect can be helpful. The advances here 'since the NOI days' that you referred to, occurred because of study and debate about ideas. Can you expand upon what you meant by "your elitist sword"? If you think that's bad, wait until you meet Diane's Occam's chainsaw.
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Old 28-06-2008, 04:49 AM   #49
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Barrett,
Why do emotions frighten you so much?
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Old 28-06-2008, 04:57 AM   #50
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Bob,

Why does reason frighten you so much?
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