frozen shoulder origin?

**bernard** · 24-03-2004, 03:13 PM

The real muscles which are responsible of elevators' weakness.

gif=>
www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/abduction.gif
flash=>
www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/abduction.swf
with flash test=>
http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anim...tion_test.html

**Diane** · 24-03-2004, 03:49 PM

Hi Bernard,
Do you think pecs and pecs alone are the culprits? I'd love to see a picture of latissimus...

,
Diane

**bernard** · 24-03-2004, 03:51 PM

Unfortunately, the image is not really well done! I tried to put pecs and latissimus dorsi but I failed. must add some legend?

try to do the levators!

**bernard** · 24-03-2004, 05:25 PM

ops: It seems that I provided not the good ones (images).

**nari** · 25-03-2004, 06:18 AM

Diane and Bernard

Can you explain what goes wrong with lat dorsi and the pecs?

Why do they react in such a way as to cause such pain? Is there any evidence that they suddenly become hypo/ertonic?

Sorry - I see them purely as secondary to a much bigger picture.

Nari

-being a grizzly bear.

**nari** · 26-03-2004, 03:07 AM

Bernard.....

I can barely recall coming across shoulder pain where the pec/s and LD are actively sustained to prevent abd.-though I have seen those ms when a bit tight. I would argue the tight muscle is purely a reaction to pain, causes no pain in itself and shortens because of lack of functional movement in the shoulder.
Do you think it contributes to/causes the loss of ROM?

You will have a tricky time, sea otter, convincing me that muscles are a culprit in any sort of pain.....but, mostly, I will always consider other opinions as valid and interesting.

Also, what about the shoulder which is not injured in any way that can be determined physically - would these big guys still contract actively??

Nari (Polar bear)

**nari** · 06-04-2004, 11:41 AM

Hi Bernard

Thanks for your reply - I have only just noticed it was way past time to reply!

A bear might be able to catch a sea otter if the otter drifted north on an friendly log and was too busy keeping warm to see the Bear sneaking up!!

For the #10 response - I would say that pain in the shoulder from no specific injury (eg a frozen-type shoulder) might not activate the big guys such as Lat dorsi. I might argue (foolishly) that the pecs and LD would contract (shorten) as a result of loss of abduction and flexion, not pain.

Even in cases of injury to the shoulder, where there is demonstratable damage (such as a severe tear) I do not notice any resistance from pecs/LD on passive movement testing.

I am only mentioning what I see, and I have no literature to back it up, that I have found.

But then, this bear does not care for muscles - rather boring, really - and goes for nerves and the brain! Very tasty, all that slippery axoplasm and chompy cortex.

I have had a tedious day with the big shots from ACT Health trying to develop a mangement plan for a nightmare patient who spends her life ringing and abusing health centres and the hospital....so I am feeling a bit loopy. (Translation: maybe a kangaroo loose in the top paddock_

Nari :roll:

24-03-2004, 03:51 PM	#3
bernard Admin, Moderator... Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: France Age: 56 Posts: 12,014 Thanks: 242 Thanked 138 Times in 92 Posts	Unfortunately, the image is not really well done! I tried to put pecs and latissimus dorsi but I failed. must add some legend? try to do the levators! __________________ Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard

24-03-2004, 05:25 PM	#4
bernard Admin, Moderator... Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: France Age: 56 Posts: 12,014 Thanks: 242 Thanked 138 Times in 92 Posts	ops: It seems that I provided not the good ones (images). __________________ Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard

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24-03-2004, 03:13 PM	#1
bernard Admin, Moderator... Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: France Age: 56 Posts: 12,014 Thanks: 242 Thanked 138 Times in 92 Posts	frozen shoulder origin? The real muscles which are responsible of elevators' weakness. gif=> www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/abduction.gif flash=> www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/abduction.swf with flash test=> http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anim...tion_test.html __________________ Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein bernard

24-03-2004, 03:49 PM	#2
Diane Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Weyburn Sask. Posts: 19,676 Thanks: 1,490 Thanked 3,193 Times in 1,570 Posts	Hi Bernard, Do you think pecs and pecs alone are the culprits? I'd love to see a picture of latissimus... , Diane

25-03-2004, 06:18 AM	#5
nari NeuroNut Evangelist Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ACT Aust Posts: 7,680 Thanks: 706 Thanked 234 Times in 168 Posts	Diane and Bernard Can you explain what goes wrong with lat dorsi and the pecs? Why do they react in such a way as to cause such pain? Is there any evidence that they suddenly become hypo/ertonic? Sorry - I see them purely as secondary to a much bigger picture. Nari -being a grizzly bear.

26-03-2004, 03:07 AM	#6
nari NeuroNut Evangelist Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ACT Aust Posts: 7,680 Thanks: 706 Thanked 234 Times in 168 Posts	Bernard..... I can barely recall coming across shoulder pain where the pec/s and LD are actively sustained to prevent abd.-though I have seen those ms when a bit tight. I would argue the tight muscle is purely a reaction to pain, causes no pain in itself and shortens because of lack of functional movement in the shoulder. Do you think it contributes to/causes the loss of ROM? You will have a tricky time, sea otter, convincing me that muscles are a culprit in any sort of pain.....but, mostly, I will always consider other opinions as valid and interesting. Also, what about the shoulder which is not injured in any way that can be determined physically - would these big guys still contract actively?? Nari (Polar bear)

06-04-2004, 11:41 AM	#7
nari NeuroNut Evangelist Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ACT Aust Posts: 7,680 Thanks: 706 Thanked 234 Times in 168 Posts	Hi Bernard Thanks for your reply - I have only just noticed it was way past time to reply! A bear might be able to catch a sea otter if the otter drifted north on an friendly log and was too busy keeping warm to see the Bear sneaking up!! For the #10 response - I would say that pain in the shoulder from no specific injury (eg a frozen-type shoulder) might not activate the big guys such as Lat dorsi. I might argue (foolishly) that the pecs and LD would contract (shorten) as a result of loss of abduction and flexion, not pain. Even in cases of injury to the shoulder, where there is demonstratable damage (such as a severe tear) I do not notice any resistance from pecs/LD on passive movement testing. I am only mentioning what I see, and I have no literature to back it up, that I have found. But then, this bear does not care for muscles - rather boring, really - and goes for nerves and the brain! Very tasty, all that slippery axoplasm and chompy cortex. I have had a tedious day with the big shots from ACT Health trying to develop a mangement plan for a nightmare patient who spends her life ringing and abusing health centres and the hospital....so I am feeling a bit loopy. (Translation: maybe a kangaroo loose in the top paddock_ Nari :roll: