SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26-12-2008, 01:58 AM   #1
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default A wonderful juxtaposition

I was listening to NPR on my way to work yesterday. Traffic was good and slow because of snow and wind. Maybe the strange combination of adrenaline and slowness made the juxtaposition of these NPR stories especially poignant. Maybe not. Judge for yourself.

1. For a hockey player, it's pain versus desire by Gemma Hooley and Chris Nelson

2. The cautionary tale of John Mackey, NFL star. by Frank DeFord
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2008, 02:21 PM   #2
Mary C
Chronic Chrawler
 
Mary C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NB
Age: 68
Posts: 875
Thanks: 23
Thanked 24 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Thanks, Jon. I've become a "Sylvia" to my aunt who lives 600 miles from here.
She's an excellent role model.

Mary
__________________
Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime.
Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov
Mary C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2010, 05:35 AM   #3
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

More from Frank Deford--Sweetness and Light
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2011, 12:31 AM   #4
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

The NFL and the brain injuries that destroyed him from the Guardian. (hat tip: Roger Ebert)
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2011, 12:58 AM   #5
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,517
Thanks: 1,803
Thanked 551 Times in 398 Posts
Default

I watched a program recently precisely about this matter of ABI in football players. It was clearly pointed out that the heavy protection afforded by the helmets meant more aggression on the field with head contacts.

The brain still pitches about inside the cranium no matter whether a helmet is worn or not. Neurons are ripped and some bleeding occurs.
A neurosurgeon I knew well tried to advocate for routine CTs on all professional players to point out the risks. Nobody took him on due to the costs involved.

The program also stressed that young players are at risk of permanent ABI features, which can be subtle but remain throughout their lives if they continue to play contact sports.

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2011, 01:04 AM   #6
Ken Jakalski
Senior Member
 
Ken Jakalski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 63
Posts: 2,019
Thanks: 360
Thanked 1,240 Times in 539 Posts
Default

Mel Siff again from 2001:

"A similar scenario confronts anyone who has been unconscious or concussed during a football game or practice. While the player soon may appear to be none the worse for damage, that same player on returning to play could set up a sequence that can ultimately lead to death or brain damage. Some recent studies have shown a correlation
between repeated concussion and brain disorders such as Altzheimer's in football players. The Medical Control Boards in boxing tend to be very strict in this regard and, as far as I know, they will ban a boxer for several weeks or months from boxing if they have experienced a single prolonged concussion."

The irony is that, relative to boxing, the reason why "gloves" entered the game was not necessarily related to boxer safety. Bare knuckle fights were relatively boring since the fighers did not want to injure their hands with head shots. Glloves increased the number of punches to the head.

This great line has been makilng the rounds for years:


The first testicular guard "Cup" was used in Hockey in 1874, and the first helmet was used in 1974.

It took 100 years for men to realize that the brain is also important.




.
Ken Jakalski is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ken Jakalski For This Useful Post:
byronselorme (07-12-2011), Clark (06-12-2011)
Old 22-07-2011, 01:15 AM   #7
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 22,564
Thanks: 2,942
Thanked 6,064 Times in 2,742 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Jakalski View Post
The first testicular guard "Cup" was used in Hockey in 1874, and the first helmet was used in 1974.

It took 100 years for men to realize that the brain is also important.
Hahahaha!
That is a great line.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2011, 10:27 PM   #8
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

Punched Out: The Life and Death of a Hockey Enforcer via the NYT and written by John Branch. (hat tip: Roger Ebert)
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2011, 11:39 PM   #9
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,517
Thanks: 1,803
Thanked 551 Times in 398 Posts
Default

I watched recently a program about 'hidden' brain injury, and the focus was on USA footballers.

They wear helmets which are relatively heavy and they feel invincible; the aggressive body contact (which is banned in Oz) results in axonal tearing at a force of up to 90-100g, similar to a head-on car collision at 35 kph. Perhaps someone should look again at the rules on body contact.

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 01:16 AM   #10
TexasOrtho
Arbiter
 
TexasOrtho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huffman, TX
Age: 42
Posts: 1,637
Thanks: 881
Thanked 702 Times in 257 Posts
Default

I've been saying for years that if you want to reduce brain injuries in football, take the helmets off.
__________________
Rod Henderson, PT, ScD
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift
TexasOrtho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 02:41 AM   #11
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,645
Thanks: 1,212
Thanked 411 Times in 228 Posts
Default

There is a hockey personality named Don Cherry in Ontario. He regularly gets himself into trouble. But one of his good points that I agree with is along those same lines for Hockey equipment. The equipment used to be a foam padding etc. Then the hard plastic shell came along, especially on elbow and shoulder pads, and injuries start going up (haven't fact checked that point).

The kids feel more invincible and crash into each other harder.

I wonder if there is much study of the prevalence of head injuries in Oz football vs American football. I always thought the Oz players were crazy for playing without helmets, but Rod makes a great point.

Ken that quote is just too perfect. Maybe us men thought we were protecting our brains at first. You know what they say
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 02:55 AM   #12
TexasOrtho
Arbiter
 
TexasOrtho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huffman, TX
Age: 42
Posts: 1,637
Thanks: 881
Thanked 702 Times in 257 Posts
Default

From my experience with American and Ozzie football players / footballers respectively, I'm not sure it'd be a homongenous population for comparison. The latter seem to have less regard for what happens to their head.

__________________
Rod Henderson, PT, ScD
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift
TexasOrtho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 03:41 AM   #13
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,645
Thanks: 1,212
Thanked 411 Times in 228 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasOrtho View Post
The latter seem to have less regard for what happens to their head.
They are crazy And not like a fox either.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 04:57 AM   #14
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,517
Thanks: 1,803
Thanked 551 Times in 398 Posts
Default

Quote:
From my experience with American and Ozzie football players / footballers respectively, I'm not sure it'd be a homongenous population for comparison. The latter seem to have less regard for what happens to their head.
I'd second that and suspect that all footballers world-wide would be similar re risk factors. Aussie players like to crack hardy and pass an injury off with a shrug, again and again. There is a bit of a cult here where rugby and union players are "men" as opposed to soccer players.

A neurosurgeon here once tried very hard to have CTs done on all players after playing for a few seasons. He lost out because of the cost and the clubs refused any contributions to cost.

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 05:11 AM   #15
Milehigh
Professional Inductionist
 
Milehigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 643
Thanked 1,458 Times in 444 Posts
Default

From watching Aussie football highlights, there is very little leading with the head. Certainly the sport condones much more violent collisions than does rugby. The most devastating hits seem to be sideways blows of the shoulder/elbow of one player to the head/chest of another. However this style of contact I think I would argue does not allow to players to run headlong at fullspeed (only American Football allows this) into each other i.e. charging rams.

In rugby most of the intentional contact is tackles that occur with the head behind the player. Therefore eliminating leading with the head and mostly the shoulder. I think this drastically decreases the forces involved in intentional contact. As well this type of tackling minimizes risk of head contact due to its position.

American Football unlike the other two allows two players to run full speed at each other. Defender's in American Football are taught to ALWAYS tackle with their head and up field shoulder across the body. This is only possible because of a helmet. If you did not have a helmet then you run the risk of taking a knee or thigh to the head. And the knee and the thigh always win against the head.

I am pretty certain that pads and protection in American Football leads to greater velocities and forces during collisions. By positioning of taught during tackling drills this also increases the risk of possible head injuries.

While in all of the above sports incidental head contact is always very high.

This reminds me of a similar argument between concussion and head injury risk in mixed martial arts and professional boxing. The argument goes that MMA gloves are lighter and less padded so a person can take less repetitive pounding i.e. repeated head trauma but is also more likely to be knocked out in one punch. While boxers take countless more lesser force impacts which is ultimately worse than a knockout i.e. concussion. I am not sure there is a definitive answer other than to avoid either of the sports if you want to avoid head trauma.

As I am writing this, it is crazy to me to think that there is still sports that condones something like a concussion as a result. After all we know about head injuries and the brain.

Credit the NYT article on Boogaard for doing an excellent job trying raise awareness.


Eric
__________________
Eric Kruger DPT, Twitter @Kintegrate
Body is imbued with mind, and mind is embodied.
I know that I effect, but I know not how I affect.
"Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.”–Kahlil Gibran (1883–1931). The Prophet.
Milehigh is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Milehigh For This Useful Post:
Bas Asselbergs (07-12-2011)
Old 08-12-2011, 12:50 AM   #16
byronselorme
Senior Member
 
byronselorme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Age: 40
Posts: 1,645
Thanks: 1,212
Thanked 411 Times in 228 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milehigh View Post
As I am writing this, it is crazy to me to think that there is still sports that condones something like a concussion as a result. After all we know about head injuries and the brain.
I have been trying to wrap my head () around this same thing for years. But knowing what we now know seems not to matter to many unfortunately.

It is one thing to know and another thing to understand. We have horrific pictures of diseased lungs and teeth on all of our cigarette packages in Canada. People still smoke, cognitive dissonance at its finest.
__________________
Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
Shavasana Yoga Center

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman
byronselorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 10:31 PM   #17
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasOrtho View Post
I've been saying for years that if you want to reduce brain injuries in football, take the helmets off.
It might help but as you read everything that followed this comment it seems to me that it's the culture, not the helmets, that's the problem. If taking away helmets reduced brain injuries, it would work by changing the culture. Taking away helmets without any cultural change would produce many more injuries than we currently have. According to me.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 12:53 AM   #18
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
 
Jon Newman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

The latest from Frank DeFord-For Some Marching Bands, Hazing Means Brutality

Quote:
I'm sorry, but that is precisely the case. It is the culture.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The most wonderful time of the year Jon Newman General Discussion 12 30-04-2006 01:42 AM
The wonderful world of abs Diane General Discussion 5 26-04-2004 03:11 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014