![]() |
|
|||||||
| Notices |
| Barrett's Forums This discussion is devoted to the latest advances in neuroscience and the clinical phenomena it explains. |
![]() |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
#1 | |
|
Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 12,627
Thanks: 605
Thanked 1,445 Times in 849 Posts
|
Quote:
For the present, those times when I get the chance to speak in front of a live audience (the Internet isn’t the same) seem to be over, but I’ve still some things to say about that and my current clinical situation has offered me a tremendous amount of material. My sense is that the subject of powerful but insidious cultural control and the purpose and/or meaning of therapy is most acutely at odds when I observe our colleague’s treatment of the elderly. So, this new thread begins. Please add whatever you feel is relevant. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#2 | |||
|
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 19,650
Thanks: 1,480
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,552 Posts
|
In the book, Rapture of Maturity, Chapter 2, The Human Predicament, Hayes comments:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe maturity means an increasing personal ability to be aware of the paradoxes and contradictions of life and to be capable of holding/tolerating them anyway, increased capacity to bear the human situation. Then finally, to not care that contradictions exist. Just keep doing one's own best to understand and keep moving. Computers simply grind to a halt when asked to not only encompass but actually process data that conflicts. They have to be rebooted. The human brain is capable of a great deal more, and it doesn't have much reboot available, only the evolution it has already undergone, and the apparently infinite processing capacity it already possesses. Reboot does not seem to be an option for institutions at all, not while they are busy circulating money, anyway. Here's the thing: if reincarnation is an option, I do not want to come back except as a rock. Maybe a tree. Please don't make me be a human again, ever. It's too crazy-making. OK, back to the chasm.
__________________
Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire Last edited by Diane; 02-02-2009 at 04:46 PM. Reason: improve grammar |
|||
|
|
|
|
|
#3 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
There are likely cultural differences to consider here as well. I'd be interested in how other (international) PTs interact with their aging population and what sort of social structures exist for helping those unable to care for themselves independently.
I live near a small city that only has acute care beds in the hospital. There are no swing beds and no rehab floor. Once you are medically stable, it's time to leave. If you can't move around well enough to go home (or from where you came) and reasonable accommodations aren't available (usually insufficient social support) then a stint at the nursing home is the only option. In the nursing home there those that are there for a temporary stay prior to (hopefully) returning home. There are also those that are unlikely to leave. When census is down, it is up to therapist to go search the building for someone to train ("screening"). At least that was my experience in 1996/97. Pain was prevalent along with plenty of other co-mordities acquired during one's lifetime and some acquired quite recently. I was able to enjoy one year in a nursing home prior to the advent of PPS or whatever it was that resulted in firing a bunch of staff and requiring that scare quotes now appear around the word care.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
#4 | |
|
Chronic Chrawler
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NB
Age: 66
Posts: 836
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
|
70% of our hospital's beds are occupied by people waiting for nursing home accommodations.
Quote:
Mary
__________________
Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime. Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
This might not occur anymore but when the therapist's caseload was down there was a command from those in charge to search the existing population of nursing home residents to see if there was someone there that would benefit from our services. There were sufficient conflicting motivations that getting into the whether a benefit was realized is a difficult thing to determine. It depends on what one counts as a benefit and what types of things count as a subtraction of benefit.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
#6 |
|
Questioning Mesodermalist
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
|
Barrett,
The culture may dictate that you practice in a certain way, but does that same culture prohibit you from flexibiltiy within? Are you able to continue doing what you feel is best for the patient, or least in bits and pieces? I think that most of us feel the outside pressure to conform to the norms of the current PT culture, even when practicing autonomously. (Note that I am keeping an insulative barrier around naming any modalities, as they seem unimportant here) Breaking cultural norms is a daily occurance for everyone, even those who feel that they are outwardly practicing and acting fully within the norms. (my opinion) We all pick and choose which we will follow, to some extent. |
|
|
|
|
|
#7 | |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
...and I thought our aged care system was bad.
![]() I suspect the cultural differences noted are due to the differences in health care philosophy in the USA and here. Of course money and stats are important but they don't dictate survival of patients and staff. In our smallish city, there is one public hospital and three private. Those on nursing home placement occupy about 35-40% of beds in the public facility; including those on the Aged Care rehab ward. That is considered unacceptable, and great pressure to admit is placed on nursing homes/managed care homes by the hospital staff. There is considerable support for families who take their aged relative home while waiting for placement. It ain't easy, but there is support. Within all nursing homes (about six) each has a dedicated PT, who does whatever (and I mean whatever) to keep the folks mobile. When I last had contact with a nursing home PT, it was more social contact than 'treatment' - nobody gave exercises, it was goal-oriented walk to the toilet, etc. I tend to agree with Walt's sentiments. Pressure to conform is relative, and the only pressure which is apparent here is to follow EBP guidelines. Even then, there is plenty of leeway; PTs have their favourite rationales for certain methods, and they use them as seen fit. If others don't agree, there might be some 'tut-tutting' with a laugh, but it is unforgiveable to criticise any PT out loud or even on the quiet, because we have the right to practise as we wish to. Looked from afar, we are seen as a rather homogenous lot, and the flexibility within isn't noticed much by others, but it's there. Quote:
Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#8 | |
|
Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 12,627
Thanks: 605
Thanked 1,445 Times in 849 Posts
|
Walt,
As you say, "in bits and pieces" I provide what I defined as care here a few years ago: Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#9 |
|
Questioning Mesodermalist
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
|
Barrett,
It is interesting that the part of your talk you quoted was part of a larger piece; one which talked of peer pressure as well. Peer pressure was what motivated me to post here from the beginning. I can see what you are referring to; that a "bits and piece" method of care, even quality care, is limited if both participants are not fully involved. In this case, neither can be fully invested in the outcome when the whole is not committed to this same outcome. |
|
|
|
|
|
#10 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
A fellow PT informs me that due to tight budgets the "restorative aide" program has been cut at the nursing home he works at (in addition to his full time job in outpatient ortho.)
For those unfamiliar with restorative aides--it may be a local thing for all I know--it is a job description that entails routine ambulation/exercises with nursing home residents and is usually done by a CNA (certified nursing assistant). On the surface, it represents a profit loss and not a profit center for a nursing home.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
#11 | |
|
Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 12,627
Thanks: 605
Thanked 1,445 Times in 849 Posts
|
Quote:
The profession has embraced the idea that function and painful sensation are intimately related, even to the point of being interchangeable. This reveals a profound ignorance of pain science to say nothing of what the therapist thinks is best for another’s “enjoyment.” It’s not all bad. I’m well-aware of how being able to walk can lead to many good things, but there’s a line between that and our perfectly natural desire to rest. Contrary to my friend Stan’s opinion, I feel that there may very well be a “need to slow down at middle age” and that this is quite natural. Each day I see patients strongly encouraged to achieve goals of function, strength, endurance and balance they had no real interest in setting and no reason to think they need, and the person setting these goals has never actually considered the conflict they’re creating. Nothing good can come from that. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#12 | |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
I agree that slowing down is quite natural. I suppose there will be a day in the future when we can, as Stan suggests, choose not to.
Quote:
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#13 | |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
Quote:
However, I think no matter what we do, the goals have to be recognised and put in place by the patient, whether or not they are compus mentis. I don't think we have the right to enforce what we think is right for the patient, but merely to agree or disagree with any goals he or she has identified. The pressure is placed on therapists to keep the patient mobile because of many reasons. Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#14 | |
|
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 19,650
Thanks: 1,480
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,552 Posts
|
Quote:
__________________
Diane www.dermoneuromodulation.com SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy HumanAntiGravitySuit blog Neurotonics PT Teamblog Diane Jacobs.com (personal website) Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters) Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page @PainPhysiosCan WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook @WCPTPTPN Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page @dfjpt SomaSimple on Facebook @somasimple "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#15 | |
|
Clinician and Researcher
![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kandahar Province, Afghanistan
Age: 39
Posts: 4,077
Thanks: 110
Thanked 531 Times in 180 Posts
|
Quote:
However, I think the care/training dichotomy gets more interesting in the elderly when we consider Sarcopenia, and the established improvements in function, mobility, and mental outlook made through strength training, even in the frail elderly. I think reviews like this point out that there are some key benefits to a "training" approach that ought to part of the discussion as well. Bill Evans in particular has done some interesting work in this area. His paper here is a good summary. I think there is definitely a good rationale to offer a structured training program for these patients, for those that choose to participate.
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#16 |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
I agree with strength training for the elderly because of the evidence behind the effort, but it depends on how it's done. It should be fun and with humour, and the 'fitness' programs I have seen under a dominating PT gave me the creeps. On one occasion I found several elderly patients in tears afterwards because of the Army-like regime. (Apologies to Jason if needed
![]() I called the program brutal because of the same routine for all levels regardless of status. Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
#17 |
|
Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 12,627
Thanks: 605
Thanked 1,445 Times in 849 Posts
|
This is a difficult issue and I'm not surprised we've reached this point. I should say I admire the careful, thoughtful approach to training Jason refers to - not that I ever see it. For my colleagues, strengthening begins and ends with an ankle weight and some arbitrarily chosen set of repetitions while others are attended to. Pain relief is a hot pack and nothing more.
Nari's point about cognitive ability is especially important. The ability to learn is what I need from the patient and this is often hard to ascertain. |
|
|
|
|
|
#18 | |
|
Clinician and Researcher
![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kandahar Province, Afghanistan
Age: 39
Posts: 4,077
Thanks: 110
Thanked 531 Times in 180 Posts
|
Quote:
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#19 |
|
Chronic Chrawler
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NB
Age: 66
Posts: 836
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
|
It's not so much what we learned in school, it's what we learned since then. I have often said that I never learned how to learn until after uni was over and done with.
Did I have to wait for the physical maturation of the left-right brain connections? Or was it those three weeks of kindness, respect and courtesy of the Quakers that made the difference? All I remember is that I felt free to satisfy my curiosity without regard to what anyone else thought or said. I'm still doing it. Mary
__________________
Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime. Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
|
|
#20 |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
Unless pressured and told to 'do this, do that', it seems many PTs forget to learn after uni. They do the compulsory CE courses, but it doesn't mean they will apply any of the contents to their practice.
The irony of all this is: they are first to complain about patients who do not improve, and put it down into the neat category of "difficult patients"...absolving themselves from any part in the failure to improve, whether it is they who fail to improve or the patient/s...or both. Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
#21 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
If it were the case that slowing down was simply a choice, why so few middle age professional sports stars in the most physically demanding sports?
If it is true that we slow down, and I think it is, do our work habits and demands reflect this inevitability? That is, does our culture change its expectations (the goals it expects) of its members in a manner that is consistent with our biological nature? It's a fuzzy line and on one side I think people simply have unrealistic expectations and on the other people run the risk of being ageist. Stupid fuzz.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
#22 |
|
Harmless creampuff
![]() ![]() Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,643
Thanks: 614
Thanked 966 Times in 436 Posts
|
I found this questionnaire while doing a project for the course I'm currently taking, and I wondered if those participating in this thread might have some thoughts on it.
__________________
John Ware, PT Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3 Last edited by John W; 09-02-2009 at 08:42 PM. Reason: typo |
|
|
|
|
|
#23 |
|
Arbiter
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 3,462
Thanks: 137
Thanked 148 Times in 68 Posts
|
John,
I think the questionnaire asks some good questions (especially regarding social interaction and sleep as these have been shown to be 2 of the most relevant outcome factors by patients), but the use of the information seems a bit funny. It seems to be useful for identifying some areas to track, address. However, categorizing a person as having chronic pain based on these criteria seems a bit off to me. Seems more an "impact of pain" questionnaire.
__________________
Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. ~Theodore Roosevelt My facebook page My youtube channel Twitter Neurotonics: a PT team blog Somasimple on twitter Pain and Neuroscience for Manual Physical Therapists Facebook page |
|
|
|
|
|
#24 |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
I personally do not like questionnaires which focus on 'pain' 'your pain' etc.
The same questions can be asked in terms of lifestyle functioning without using the word 'pain'. Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
#25 |
|
Harmless creampuff
![]() ![]() Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,643
Thanks: 614
Thanked 966 Times in 436 Posts
|
Nari,
Would you expand on why you don't like the term "pain" used in a questionnaire of this sort? I tend to agree in some respects, but would like to get your take. Cory, Yeah, I agree. It seems strange to use this tool as a clinical decision-making tool to intervene, but that's what it's being used for in this particular facility.
__________________
John Ware, PT Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3 |
|
|
|
|
|
#26 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
This might be of interest in this thread: Attitudes toward exercise.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
|
|
#27 |
|
NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,676
Thanks: 703
Thanked 230 Times in 164 Posts
|
John, if a questionnaire has ten questions specifically asking about pain, it probably makes the respondent feel worse by the end of it.
However, if the questions can be answered in reference to someone's function it takes the focus off. For example: What do you find is the most difficult activity each day? Can you sleep for a reasonable length of time at night? It allows the patient to tell a broader story of the impact of pain on their lives. That's my take, and the tendency amongst PTs here is to avoid using the word pain. That includes verbal assessments. Nari |
|
|
|
|
|
#28 |
|
Enjoy a moment of whimsy
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 54 Times in 40 Posts
|
This might be slightly askew but I think it belongs here nonetheless.
Live Longer, Think Longer--an interview with Mary Catherine Bateson.
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris |
|
|
|
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Ref Crossing the Chasm - Meso to Ecto | Jason Silvernail | General Discussion | 102 | 10-02-2012 06:05 AM |
| The Chasm | Barrett Dorko | Barrett's Forums | 150 | 10-08-2011 09:51 PM |
| Take care of your disks! | bernard | Tools | 1 | 27-06-2007 11:56 PM |